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Radiator cooling fan not working when A/C is on

36K views 30 replies 9 participants last post by  searcherrr 
#1 ·
Since last summer, our car will overheat ONLY under the following conditions:


1) Hot outside
2) A/C is on
3) Car is not moving much


If the A/C is off, but the car is not moving much, it will not overheat.
If the car is moving and the A/C is on, it will not overheat either.


I decided to do a test yesterday to help diagnose the issue.


1) Idle with no A/C. No fans come on (it was cooler out).
2) Turn on A/C. Condensor fan comes on strong, but radiator fan does not move.
3) Turn off A/C. Condensor fan stays on, but radiator fan starts moving slowly.


From what I've read, the radiator fan should move when the A/C is on, but that is not what I'm seeing. That also could explain the overheating.


So my question is what would cause the above? From my research so far, possibilities are:


1) Bad cooling fan relay?
2) Bad wiring to the cooling fan?
3) Bad cooling fan (bad high speed only?)


Any help would be appreciated since this is not a clear cut thing, and I'm still learning. Had anyone had similar issues with their Pilot?


Thanks,
Marz
 
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#10 · (Edited)
Both fans should be on when the A/C is on. You'll need to test things to see what's going on, could just be a bad fan. You can go to this thread for the fan schematic.

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/24-19...7-cooling-fan-wiring-override-atf-cooler.html
Appreciate the schematic. I trust it covers 2001? Looks right from what I know. In any case, it looks like I landed in the right forum. I'm gathering that the radiator fan (4 blade) is pax side and the condensor fan (5 blade) is driver side. Honda told me the reverse. Both are dead. Prelim check is the pax side is open and the driver's side is frozen. Engine overheats when not moving. No brainer. Got more diagnosis to do. I'll update progress if anyone cares.
 
#3 · (Edited)
There is a Free Electrical Troubleshooting Manual in the Sticky Threads section above this forum.
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/24-19...dyssey-electrical-troubleshooting-manual.html
The radiator fan should come on at around 199F and go to high speed when the coolant temp is +210F.
The radiator fan is controlled by a relay and its contacts are fed by fuse #57 (30A) in the 'under-the-hood' fuse/relay box.
That relay can be energized by temp switch A or by turning the AC on.
The condenser fan has a separate fuse.
So, overall, it sounds like the radiator fan is not getting power or it is bad. No power to the radiator fan when the AC is turned on can be as simple as a bad fuse or a faulty relay. A faulty relay will prevent the radiator fan from going on, just as a bad Fuse 57 will.
Find the connector for the radiator fan and feed it 12v power. If it works then, the problem is that the fan is not getting power.
If it doesn't work then, the fan motor is most likely bad.
The radiator fan and the condenser fan should both be running with the AC on.
If the coolant temp goes above 210F, than both fans should come on at high speed.
What your situation suggests is that the radiator fan NEVER goes on.
So, blown fuse, bad relay or bad fan motor are the most likely suspects.
I may be mixed up on how the radiator fan turns on, but if you feed that fan 12v directly and it doesn't run, it is a bad fan motor.
Buffalo4
 
#4 · (Edited)
Strange that the radiator fan turns slowly when you shut the AC off. The condenser fan should also shut off unless the engine is over 210F when you turn the AC off.
Unplug and replug the radiator fan connector several times to ensure a good connection.
Check the grounding wire from the bat (-) terminal to the frame and also from the frame (near the top of the radiator frame) to the engine; ie: same wire you are supposed to use to put the (-) battery jumper cable to when jumping the engine).
When you turn on the AC ( even with only the ignition on, engine not running and a cold engine) both fans should come on at their slower speed, even if the radiator fan fuse or its relay is not working.
Again, first disconnect the radiator fan and feed it 12 v to see if the motor is OK.
Buffalo4
 
#5 ·
Thanks to all who replied...

I have found some more information as I began to troubleshoot. Step 1 was to check the fuse to the radiator fan, and the 30A fuse was blown. I turned the fans by hand to see, and while the condensor fan was smooth and not wobbly, the radiator fan had some resistance and it was wobbly on the spindle. I suspect the fan is causing resistance and blowing the fuse. I've ordered new fuses and a new radiator fan from Amazon, so will give that a shot. I can also install an intact 30A fuse and see what happens under the hood.

Thanks for the feedback so far...
Marz
 
#6 · (Edited)
I believe you will find that the radiator fan motor is shot.
That is why it blows the fuse.
The new fan motor should take care of your overheating problems. :ahh:
I also believe that when you turn the AC on, the radiator fan does not get its power through its fuse (#57), unless the temp is up.
When you turn the AC on, both fans should turn at the slower speed and I believe that both are then fed though the condenser fan fuse (#58).
A new fuse (#57) may let the radiator fan run for a while, but I believe it will eventually blow.
After the AC is turned off and the temp is over 210, the radiator fan relay closes and supplies the radiator a full 12v. When just the AC is on and the coolant temps are fairly low, both fans run in series and therefore at well below 12v. That could be why the rad fan turned slowly after you turned the AC off.
Buffalo4
 
#7 ·
When just the AC is on and the coolant temps are fairly low, both fans run in series and therefore at well below 12v. That could be why the rad fan turned slowly after you turned the AC off.
Buffalo4
Very good point. When in series the fuse would not blow because the good fan keeps the amperage low across the fuse. I had to look at the schematic again to see this.
 
#8 ·
The radiator fan fuse (#57) does not supply power to the radiator fan when the temp is low (below 199F or so) and the AC is on. The radiator fan relay needs to be energized before the radiator fan receives power through fuse (#57). Then it goes to high speed with 12v to it.
Both the condenser and radiator fans are supplied power through the condenser fan fuse (58) as it looks to me in the diagram when the AC is on and the coolant temp is low. Pretty confusing overall, at least to me.
Buffalo4
 
#9 ·
Well yesterday I replaced the 30A fuse and so far it works now. When I push the A/C button, both fans go on. With no a/C on, both fans cycle. The radiator fan does stop spinning much sooner than the condensor one, so I do think there is resistance in there. The new fan will be coming this weekend as insurance in case the fuse blows again.

Thanks,
Jeremy
 
#11 ·
Actually, on my '99, the condenser fan is on the passenger side. I just replaced this just few weeks ago. If both your fans are dead, best way to confirm is to disconnect the fan motor harness and direct wire from the battery. If the fan moves then its not the fan. You then go to the relays, the fuse box under hood on the left side. If the fans are indeed bad, you can get the entire assembly or just the motors. I opted for the motor, the oem condenser fan assembly seems better built (metal) than the plastic ones on the new fan assembly. You only have to remove 4 screws to remove the motor off the assembly. And the harness clips. Good luck.
 
#12 ·
Nitely, you are correct on position. I finished this job a couple of days ago and here are the results. First, as shared in another post, the easiest way to get the fans out is to remove the bumper, grill, and headlamps. Not hard. Lower radiator fluid level and pull the top hose. Unfasten the radiator and condensor and lay them forward. Findings: the condensor fan motor (4 blade, pax side) was open. The radiator fan motor (5 blade, driver side) was frozen. Radiator fan fuse #57 (30 amp) was blown. Check engine lamp (MIL) and TCS lamps were on. Engine was surging at idle on its own.

Changed out the condensor fan motor and reinstalled blade. Pretty simple, tested good, and reinstalled. The radiator fan motor was a bit more problematic in my case. Two motor screws would not come out and I damaged the Phillips heads. Fortunately, I have a great extractor and got them out in minutes. Changed those screws to hex heads for the future. Then, the blade did not pass inspection. The hub had melted and was no longer centered (see photo) so it is now out of balance. A wrecking yard run located one for $20. Installed replacement blade, tested good, and reinstalled. My suspicion is the frozen motor shaft got really hot before the fuse blew and melted the plastic around the blade hub.

Remounted the radiator and condensor, topped off fluid, replaced fuse, and started engine. Ran fine, no surge, check engine and TCS lamps still on. Turned A/C on, both fans started. Turned A/C off and both shut off which is correct until engine reaches a specific temp (199 degrees). While I had the fan circuit schematic from elsewhere in this forum, I suspected that there was more than the fan motor on the #57 fuse. Likely emissions stuff or an ECM input. Therefore, since the vehicle was now running smoothly and I had repaired the core (original) problems, I reassembled the car. That assumption proved correct. In the test drive I was again able to turn the TCS lamp off with the dash switch. After a few miles, the MIL (check engine lamp) went off. Paint shop scheduled for Sept 6. All is good and the grandkids' taxi is on the road again.
 

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#17 ·
For clarity, when my vehicle threw the code and the MIL came on, it also disengaged the TCS which then turns on the TCS lamp. I could not re-engage the TCS following that until I replaced the #57 fuse. I did not investigate the code nor act upon it. I surmised that this was a secondary issue that would go away once I replaced the fuse. That is exactly what happened. Once that was done, the TCS system would cycle with the dash switch as described by Buffalo4. Everything works as new today.
 
#15 · (Edited)
If the light is OFF and you push the button, it should go ON. If the light is ON and you push the button the light should go OFF

IIRC, the TCS light goes on when the TCS is off and it goes off when the TCS light is ON.
Either way when you first turn on the engine, the TCS light is off and the TCS is ON, regardless of how it was before you turned the engine off. If you push the button, the TCS light will go on and the TCS is now OFF.
When you are driving on icy roads at a lower speed and one of the front wheels starts slipping, the TCS system starts working and the dash light goes on and off to let you know it's working. It also automatically disengages at a certain speed, probably just around 20 mph or less.
Confusing. :eek: :Cheers:
If you have a flat tire and have to use that 'little' spare, it is advised to push the button to disenage (turn off) the TCS and the lighted light shows you it is disengaged. Otherwise if you are driving below the cutoff speed, the TCS system will keep applying the brakes to the little wheel because it is turning faster. After a certain speed higher, it should automatically be disengaged.
Buffalo4
 
#16 ·
To the best of my recollection, when I had the TCS light on because of EGR code, I was not able turn off the TCS light. I had code reader connected to the van full time and used to be able to turn off the CEL but that pesky TCS would only go off after the van had restarted.

Once the computer has decided to turn off the TCS system on its own, I do not think it allows the driver to turn it back on as the computer believes there is a fault in the system.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I know this topic is old but I am having this exact same problem in my 2003 Odyssey where once every 30 to 40 days religiously (daily driver) the 30amp cooling fan relay blows out (passenger side fan).

I'm on my 4th or 5th visit to Honda to try to have them fix it. Cooling fans have been replaced 3 times with oem new on both sets as well as cooling fan relay 4 times.

Not wanting to take it back there a 5th or 6th time I'm trying to help them fix it on the 4th time.

Nobody here has mentioned a coolant temperature sensor as a possible culprit. Anyone run into that on these bands? This generation. What about bad wiring or a bad regulator in the alternator blowing these relays?

Reason I bring up the alternator is because when I flick my high beams at idle the idle drops a little bit quite noticeably for as long as I hold the high beam flick stick back.

A couple of months ago before I brought it to them I watched and witnessed both cooling fans turn off completely while the engine was running with the AC still on full blast. To me this could indicate a coolant temperature sensor and I have suggested that to the dealership as well as the alternator regulator (possible going out?) thing yesterday. When I tell them that they have no input and seem like they are aggravated with me because they've had to replace parts for free so many times because they can't figure it out.

I'm experiencing the same exact Behavior as The original poster (OP; post 1 above IDENTICAL SYMPTOMS) but the suggestions herein did not fix it.

HELP!!
 
#20 · (Edited)
Check the grounding for the fan. Perhaps it is a poor connection (where ever it is located). Any other electrical problems such as flickering lights, engine codes, etc . If so, it might be a main ground somewhere. That can cause over voltage spiking conditions just like a faulty alternator.
Usually an electric motor will fail prematurely from an substantial over or very large under voltage or erratic voltage conditions. I would definitely check the grounding that goes from the radiator area support (driver's side) to the engine and might as well check the grounding wire from the battery to the radiator support but right next to the battery.
There is also a multi-grounding point right next to the coolant reservoir,ww washer reservoir.
While the fans are running you might even try tapping on the boxes that contain the fan relays and fuses (engine off but ignition on and AC on) to see if you can hear any change in engine speed.
On my 2003 EX-L, I also have seen both fans turn OFF for awhile while idling with the AC on.
Perhaps do some research online about the common causes why DC motors fail prematurely.
Buffalo4
PS: Coolant temp sensors most likely just control the relays and don't feed the voltage and amperage to the fan motors.
 
#21 ·
Thanks for that fast reply Buffalo! I love this forum!

I'm suggesting coolant temp sensor because if the van doesn't know what temp it is or voltage from the temp sensor is irregular -while running- that it may not be sending the right voltage/signal to run the fans at all, or have them OFF or ON or run them at the right speeds. Every time I have brought up the coolant temp sensor nobody bites on it, but it seems like it makes sense to me.
 
#22 · (Edited)
One coolant temp sensor is by the timing belt and is the one that will kick both radiator fans to high speed mode. I think it activates around 208F or so.The one by the thermostat housing will trigger the radiator fan at around 194+ degrees. I don't have my book handy to look it up. I can't remember where the one is that feeds the temp to the computer and temp gauge is.
If I could find a diagram of the circuit, it could help.
Buffalo4
 
#23 ·
I guess I'll try to find you that wiring diagram when I have a chance. I'm pretty good about finding that kinda of stuff.

For now though, I visited for about an hour and a half today with the head service manager about this issue and I can tell they are getting aggravated, because I keep pointing out things that are being missed, broken or left out of reassembly, like plastic clips missing, plastic clips broken and 2 mounting bolts that have gone missing that hold the U shaped cooling pipe on in front of the radiator. Outside of this issue their tech is trying to say he didn't have to remove the front bumper to replace the radiator and the 2 coolings fans last time when everything I've seen online shows that you have to. The mounting bolts don't just "fall off" for the U shaped cooling line or unthread themselves from their bolt holes, plastic clips for the splash guard that I had just replaced myself before a trip in May "in all holes" don't just suddenly vanish without being pulled out, but while we're trying to solve the main problem these other little items are getting in the way and muddying up the waters to get all this resolved to the point I think they think I'm yanking their chain a bit, when I'm not. I just want stuff to come back to me as it was given to them, or better.

Whats happening now is that they are thinking that the actual FUSE and RELAY BOX junction up on passenger side is at fault and that there could be possible loose or degraded connections there leading to the cooling fan relays. I made sure again (3rd time I've had to tell them) that both fans are intermittently cutting off, but that it is mainly the condenser fan (passenger side) that keeps cutting off. They think the new OEM fans they put in there last time are still good, but this whole thing goes back to them telling me I needed to replace a 3rd party fan on the very first visit months ago and I paid for a brand new OEM Honda fan motor a few months ago "believing" they had this right and to me it looks like that 1st fan motor being replaced was just a waste of time and money because the problem still exists here exactly as it had been from 4 or 5 months ago with the cooling fan relay (center position) continuing to burn up within every 30 to 40 days of fresh usage. Today the service manager pulled the relay out and saw it was melting again and this was the first time I even looked at the relay since last month (July) when they installed it new and of course "common sense" can tell ya it was going to be melted because the passenger side (condenser fan) kept cutting off again when it's supposed to be running and so the relay again was melted upon inspection this morning.

But the idea of replacing the fuse/relay box is an interesting one to me and a good POSSIBLE solution with the idea being that the relays keep burning up and lead service manager pointed out today that electrical connections that are loose cause problems like that, but I don't have any reason at this point to believe that they ACTUALLY KNOW if this will fix my problem or not, but they are going by the troubleshooting book procedures so this is the next thing down the line to visit on the matter.

I pointed out grounding cables to them this morning, talked about the possibility of the alternator regulator being on the fringe or the coolant temp sensor maybe causing issues, but they didn't bite on any of it. It seems odd to me to focus on the fuse box itself, but at the same time that is exactly where the relays are burning up.... but something just doesn't feel right about it to me and I guess that's because never on any other vehicle have I seen anybody focus on replacing the fuse box, though my van is approaching 300k miles........ maybe the terminals that handle the load for the cooling fans have finally just "given up" on electrical use? I dunno.

I can say though, that they are meeting me halfway on labor if I buy the part and since this is either my 4th or 5th time dealing with all this that now I have a loaner car while my van is being serviced. They have been trying to accommodate me as best they can, but now I'm in a battle of "what is and what isn't" because their tech is trying to protect his job by not admitting to all the side stuff he's missed or broken. All I want is to have it fixed right and not have to bring it back again for the same problem and have all my plastic/metal mounted back on the van the way it originally was without any debate, but regardless of the side stuff I just need the van not to overheat.
 
#24 ·
Cut your losses and forget this dealer. They are only good for warranty work. If a new part fails due to a blown/melted fuse, its not the new part but somewhere in the wiring is shorting it. Best if you do your own troubleshooting and stop giving away your money. Dealers don't really do time consuming electrical/wire issues. They will make you change every part at your expense to find/fix the issue. They merely replace parts not repair them. Find an indy shop with good reviews if you can't do it yourself. One other thing, always get your old part back. Inform the shop ahead of time-before the job starts. Or at least visually check the old part and see for yourself where it failed. If nothing obvious is seen, and its small enough, take it home if you suspect it can still be good.

Eliminating the alternator and coolant sensor should be easy to do. You wanna check the wiring from the fan to the fuse to the battery to the alternator. Good luck.
 
#26 ·
Yeah, it's a new dealership and they are doing exactly what you said. 1 replace part, 2 replace part, hoping we're all not going to figure out the corporate pattern they are forced to follow, following their "chart" of what to replace next instead of doing actual analysis of the real problem. They have a great customer service staff though and a great waiting area, shuttle service and I have a loaner vehicle after all this, which has helped tremendously instead of the monthly incovenience of not being able to drive my overheating van due to their lack of "sight" in to the problem. Not complaining about any of their handling of me personally, but when it comes to figuring out a "real problem" there is no "figuring involved" here no matter how pretty the dealership looks. It looks as though they are holding to their Honda company procedures manual and "hoping they get it right" along the way.

I think what would be a good idea is to tell them to keep and drive the van a few days and check the resistance drop on the new relay after each drive till they witness the pastic around it starting to melt again. If the resistance starts to climb during the relay's "closed gate/door mode" (electrical talk) then they will see that they haven't fixed the problem yet again because that relay is gonna melt all over again with 30 to 40 days time "like clockwork".

Yes, I could fix this myself. I'm very good at DIY for cars and otherwise, but I don't have the time right now. I know another shop that could fix it in a day, because they actually do "ANALYSIS" and not a book procedure without thought involved..... but honestly I'm hoping that the lead service manager's analysis of a "loose connection at the relay/fuse box" will prove true if anything else to prove he was right, because his master tech hasn't been right once (on this issue).

Parts paid for so far after 5 visits are:
1. 1 New OEM Honda cooling (or condenser) fan - and I can't remember which one I paid for because they ended up replacing BOTH AGAIN on their DIME along with the radiator they punctured.
2. 2 or 4 sets of relays
3. Labor to replace all that 1 time
---------------------
4. All other visits labor including replacing the fans a second time has been covered by them.
5. What they want me to pay for (Monday likely) is a new engine compartment fuse/relay box.
6. I'm not sure there will be a #6. I know they don't want me to come back when it fails again the exact same way, but on principle it should go back for a #6 and them fix it as was intended many months back on the 1st visit for the cooling fan they had me replace that was actually FINE to begin with, but they won't admit that now (too much muddy water).

Take 2 wire with alagator clips and hoo then direct to the fan in question with the loose end to your battery. Fan will run if good or it won't.
Thanks for that procedure as well sir, but we're at the point far past just 1 cooling fan motor being the culprit. As nitely2 said, it's in the wiring somewhere and likely as easy as a ground point or bad cable or bad battery cell or alternator on the border of death - ALL OF WHICH THEY HAVEN'T BOTHERED TO MENTION IF THEY'VE CHECKED AT ALL YET despite me giving them these helpful suggestions.

The world is full of "speed" and these days when people can't fix or do something fast it's looked at as not worth it or worse yet "too much trouble to deal with" - and this is the attitude I am encountering at the dealership whenever I challenge anything they tell me..... as if I'm supposed to still be calm and cool and HAPPY as I was the 1st day many months and many visits ago when I dropped it off. I've got no reason to be professional or HAPPY or even calm about any of this and what is more frustrating is that I sense they think I'm "messing with them" on this whole thing because they can't believe they haven't fixed it yet when they are not giving the problem true ANALYSIS to resolve it. YOU HAVE TO STEP OUT OF THE BOOK TO SOLVE THESE KINDS OF PROBLEMS...... BUT I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO TELL THEM THAT. THEY SHOULD'VE JUST REPAIRED IT THE 1ST GO AROUND. But here I am on my quest of principle because "It's what's right, no matter the trouble."

Thank ya'll and I shall post back the results of this debacle.
 
#27 ·
So I got the van back last Friday. It's pretty comical what they did and think they were doing (which i guess was to teach me some lesson since then think i'm messing with them and they believe their tech is as good as Jesus).

They had 3 people closely with fine-tooth comb inspect the loaner vehicle they had given me. I'd had it for a week.

I watched them through the glass windows at the service department area go around the car and look at every exterior component as close as they could looking everywhere even up the windshield and the roof. I would say they spent a good three to five minutes checking the whole thing out. Meanwhile I sat there smiling because I understood what was going on. It felt like they thought they were giving me a dose of my own medicine since they think I'm nitpicking about how every time I go there something is not reassembled or a clip is broken or a bolt is missing. It's all little things but it all adds up over time.

I now have a brand new fuse and relay box in the engine bay.

I have no way of knowing for sure if the problem is really fixed except to ride the Van for another 30 days and see if it melts the relay again.

The service manager himself says he remounted the power steering cooling line as well as made sure my plastic clips were underneath the bumper as I said they were prior to service. He also says he checked the reference voltage at the relay box cooling fan relays to be well within spec.

The other thing and it's minor but again is one more thing they missed for whatever reason my dome light switch was pulled out from where it is mounted in on the dash like they had taken apart the dash and didn't push the dome light switch back in all the way into its mount hole.

I have no idea why they would have been messing with the dash (i cannot make this crap up) when they had to replace a fuse and relay box inside of the engine bay.

But I thought about telling them about that but decided not to since they think I'm nitpicking trying to get free stuff i guess.

In any case we shall see if the cooling fan problem is fixed in about 30 days. I have a suspicion it is not fixed because to me it seems like the cooling fans are pulsing while the engine is running and that is not how I remember it running when it was working right many months back.
 
#28 ·
LOL - nice to see that you know what's going on. So many people don't. I only read the last two posts.

Your evaluation of the dealer's procedure is exactly as I have encountered the few times I've had to deal with them (generally warranty work or a new transmission - LOL). And it's not just Honda. Everyone is trained not to think at all.

The manufacturers are putting intelligence into the cars and the troubleshooting with the apparent (exaggerated) goal that trained monkeys will be able to repair cars one day. And to some extent that may be possible. I've even noticed on one of my newer cars (a Porsche - European, so a ton of different languages where the cars are sold and repaired) that they've taken the service manual even further to the point that being able to read is not important. Everything is made graphical to the extent possible. I guess this expands the potential mechanic workforce as some people may not be fluent in reading a foreign language. Back in the olden days, service manuals would have a few pages of theory of operation at the beginning of each section. No need for that any more, I guess, if the computers can do all the thinking.

So when real thinking is required, it seems the independent mechanics are your only hope if you're not able to do it yourself. I know many of the indys that post on here sure know what they're doing and how to analyze and troubleshoot a problem.

And on the SPEED thing ... I've found this goes in most trades as well. There is a perception, whether you're framing a house, laying tile, or doing a timing belt job, that the job is the job. You do it or you don't. The only way to do it really well is to do it really quickly. That means more jobs and more money in a fixed amount of time. It really seems to be the only thing skilled workers pride themselves on - not how well they can do something, but how fast. And the speed can actually be pretty amazing to watch, but not if they don't achieve mission success.
 
#30 ·
LOL - nice to see that you know what's going on. So many people don't. I only read the last two posts.

Your evaluation of the dealer's procedure is exactly as I have encountered the few times I've had to deal with them (generally warranty work or a new transmission - LOL). And it's not just Honda. Everyone is trained not to think at all.

The manufacturers are putting intelligence into the cars and the troubleshooting with the apparent (exaggerated) goal that trained monkeys will be able to repair cars one day. And to some extent that may be possible. I've even noticed on one of my newer cars (a Porsche - European, so a ton of different languages where the cars are sold and repaired) that they've taken the service manual even further to the point that being able to read is not important. Everything is made graphical to the extent possible. I guess this expands the potential mechanic workforce as some people may not be fluent in reading a foreign language. Back in the olden days, service manuals would have a few pages of theory of operation at the beginning of each section. No need for that any more, I guess, if the computers can do all the thinking.

So when real thinking is required, it seems the independent mechanics are your only hope if you're not able to do it yourself. I know many of the indys that post on here sure know what they're doing and how to analyze and troubleshoot a problem.

And on the SPEED thing ... I've found this goes in most trades as well. There is a perception, whether you're framing a house, laying tile, or doing a timing belt job, that the job is the job. You do it or you don't. The only way to do it really well is to do it really quickly. That means more jobs and more money in a fixed amount of time. It really seems to be the only thing skilled workers pride themselves on - not how well they can do something, but how fast. And the speed can actually be pretty amazing to watch, but not if they don't achieve mission success.
oldskewel - you really did hit the nail on the head with EXACTLY everthing you said. I know this is over a year later reply, but I had to reply as I'm reviewing very old tabs I had left open over a year later in Firefox (yeah I'm crazy like that).

I'm happy to report too that after all this time the fix definitely was replacing the fuse box under the hood. I guess the LOOSE CONNECTION there was actually the culprit after all. So go figure.
 
#31 ·
It was not part of any warranty repair, but they made me a deal if I bought the part they'd do the labor since they were at that point embarrassed I'd been back so much for the same problem. I paid out of pocket for the fuse/relay box under the hood probably somewhere around $150 to $200.
 
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