I bought a 99 Odyssey with 65,000 miles on it back in December of 05. About a week ago, my wife was driving it when the CEL came on. I took it to a local shop where they scanned it for me and they said the catalytic converter was going bad. The car now has 90,000 miles on it and the Honda emissions warranty will not cover it. My extended warranty that I paid 2000 bucks for will not cover it either.
My question is this. I live in Alabama where emissions are not regulated. If I just leave it alone and drive it will there be any damage to the motor or other systems?
My question is this. I live in Alabama where emissions are not regulated. If I just leave it alone and drive it will there be any damage to the motor or other systems?
In Texas a safety inspection is required every year regardless of your county's emissions testing requirement. If you go and try to get your car inspected and your CEL (check engine) light is on they will fail your car.
Now there is an easy way around this many have been doing for years... Simply reset your computer (pull the "main Aux" fuse or battery cable) before you get to the service station for the inspection. It will take several hours of driving before the light comes back on again.
Word of caution though... Texas has finally gotten "smart" of this trick and is starting to require computer codes be read from every car that has an inspection. Once the computer has been reset everything starts out at default/zero again, and this can be detected by scanning for codes. I've heard that some shops have started this early and if they see that your computer has just been recently "reset" then they will ask you to come back in a day to re-test.
Just an FYI.
ps. I had the same thing happen to my '99 at 83,000 miles. Dealer wanted to charge $1000 to replace cat. I ordered an aftermarket factory replacement for something like $200 and paid a local muffler shop to install it for me for $20.00. Last time I got the CEL light was over 8 months ago... At that time I suspected the O2 sensors and not the newly installed Cat so I cleaned the 02 sensors and reinstalled. Haven't had a "light" since and mpg is ~26 mpg on road trips (~18 in city).
Will driving it with a bad cat cause a dropoff in gas mileage? I've never had any kinds of problems with emissions systems so this is all new material to me!
Yes it could. As I understand it while the CEL (check engine) light is on the computer is running in "default" or "limp" mode. It uses all default settings for fuel mixing instead of adjusting the mixture to the conditions. So, yes... many do report a drop in mpg.
Please lookup code 420 or search for P0420. You will find lots of information.
Since I have been struggling with this code now for years, I can tell you that the computer will NOT put the car in the limp-home mode with this particular code. I have monitored parameters after and before this particular code and the fuel trim is NOT being reset on this particular error.
It is mandatory that you have your own scanner or at least have access to it.
Some chemicals work as a short term remedy. I recommend Gumout Regane (golden transparent bottle). Erase the code, put the chemical in the tank, drive about 20-40 miles until I/M indicators are ready, (You need scanner for that) and get it inspected while the light is off but I/M indicators have progressed to ready. Most state allow 1 or 2 indicators to be incomplete, so you want a scanner which will give you that information. The light will eventually come back on but if you are lucky, you can get through the inspection.
The problem is that the algorithm for detecting code the code P0420 is too stringent (read - buggy) and that's why even after replacing the catalytic converter the code pops up back after few months. Colorado University did study and found that there were lots of spurious P0420 code on the vehicles which had squeeky clean emissions at the tailpipe. Google P0420 and Colorado and you should find that study.
You can put the O2 simulator in line with the rear O2 sensor (look up casper and O2 simulator on google) and get rid of this problem forever. I will eventually do that.
I agree with Vikas regarding the 'overly sensitive' nature of the pcm and 0420. I've owned domestic cars & SUV's as well, and they don't appear to be nearly as 'emissions sensitive'. Although it's speculation on my part, I'm not sure that this wasn't an intentional design of Honda's - in an effort to maintain clean tailpipe standards companywide thus establishing such a reputation (which they've done very well). Whether 'catalyst inefficiency' indicates cat failure, or a cat that isn't operating as efficient as Honda intended seems to be debatable. I lean toward the latter.
I also believe that paired with highly sensitive emissions systems, the inherent EGR inefficiencies that the earlier Odysseys suffered from have led to premature cat 'failure' (or at least a chronic 0420) in many cases - whether an EGR code was ever present or not.
Getting a car that has just had a code cleared through a state emission test, depends on whether the specific state does a 'readiness' test. This is a type of initial OBDII scan that can determine whether codes were recently reset. Many states will require you to come back for a retest if the OBD fails the readiness test (recent clearing of a specific code).
If after about 50 miles or 15 ignition cycles (startup and shutdown), your cel remains off, you'll likely pass the readiness test. Regarding aftermarket catalytic converters:
If you opt to save a little $ by not going to the dealer & getting gouged to the tune of $1,000, do yourself a favor and stay away from low-priced aftermarket units. Many of these are universal units with model-specific flanges welded on, and questionable innards. They are less efficient than the o.e.m. types, and most have no testing data to back them up. A 'universal' aftermarket unit isn't specifically designed for this engine may only hold off the dreaded 0420 for a short period of time. Running that risk isn't worth saving the $100 or $200 difference in the units, IMO.
If you are going to the expense of replacing the cat, go for a unit that is specifically designed to work with the Odyssey.
Bosal is such a unit. You can call the company directly in New Jersey (Bosal Aftermarket) and speak to some very knowledgeable tech people who will fill you in on everything that you need to know about catalytic converters. They will also instruct you as to the correct unit for your specific application.
Also, just because you didn't buy your Odyssey in California, and you don't reside in California, doesn't mean that it isn't a California compliant vehicle. Check under the hood to see whether your car is California emissions compliant. If it is, this will likely have a bearing on the correct purchase of catalytic converter.
J.P.
Now it’s true that I am a liberal atheist with socialist tendencies. But I take offence at the idea of ignoring or overriding emissions devices for convenience, stinginess, laziness...
I also agree with J.P. on being careful to not just buy the cheapest cat you can find. But even a Bosal will be less than $400 for the part.
How did you clean your O2 sensors? Do you have access to a lift or something? Was it just soot? I'm going back to Midas since I'm getting the code again a short while after cat replacement, so I'll see if they can do that rather than install yet another cat.
As un update to this Cat. thread, I installed the Bosal just prior to selling my Odyssey (good riddance). Since the emissions testing station tests readiness, the car had to be driven at least 50 miles before taking it in for testing. Several miles were driven with no CEL appearing. It passed with flying colors, and many miles later, no cat related CEL.
Also, another thing to note. Using the correct plugs these cars is very important. Don't let anyone tell you differently. Use the o.e.m. plugs for Odysseys (can't recall the specific numbers) They are the pricey ones ($11 each, if I'm not mistaken). There's a reason that Honda puts these plugs into their vehicles when they roll off the assembly line. Using the correct plugs is critical to getting the emission system working to o.e.m. specs.
If you cheap out on the plugs, you will likely get adverse emissions results. Ralph,
You won't need a lift to get to your sensors, just a crawler. You'll need to disconnect (unplug) each sensor prior to loosening them, since they twist as they're unscrewed from the exhaust/cat.
You can try cleaning them, but I'm afraid it won't solve your CEL problem if it relates to cat. Cleaning them doesn't involve a chemical. It's more of a process of using a torch. Your actually burning the soot off. It's an inexact science, in which you can do more harm than good if you apply too much heat.
Please lookup code 420 or search for P0420. You will find lots of information.
...
The problem is that the algorithm for detecting code the code P0420 is too stringent (read - buggy) and that's why even after replacing the catalytic converter the code pops up back after few months. Colorado University did study and found that there were lots of spurious P0420 code on the vehicles which had squeeky clean emissions at the tailpipe. Google P0420 and Colorado and you should find that study.
You can put the O2 simulator in line with the rear O2 sensor (look up casper and O2 simulator on google) and get rid of this problem forever. I will eventually do that.
Googling for that study didn't turn up anything! You would think if there was a fault in the algorithm that Honda would have issued SOMETHING by now that would be common knowledge here. I guess I can keep getting CATS replaced under warranty but I still have to pay the labor and go through the hassle. We have to solve this problem!
I would do the simulator in a hearbeat if it wasn't illegal.
jptl - couldn't I just sand off the soot with a fine grain sandpaper, being careful not to damage the housing? And can you get to the underside with just a crawler, or do you need to also put it on ramps or something? I might try to talk the Midas people into at least looking at the sensors - I'm getting averse to working on things myself, especially exhaust, where things are dirty, inaccessible, and rusted.
Ralph,
The sensor or probe is protected by tempered perforated steel casing. This casing gets sooty, particularly in inefficient emissions systems, but removing the soot from the casing has no effect on the probe inside....in fact, I'd venture to say that it could actually contaminate the probe more with the particles that you're dislocating.
Sorry, I failed to mention that you do need to put the car on ramps in order to get under with a crawler. Removing the sensors is easy once you get under there.
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