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Car Judders on 06 Odyssey EXL

12K views 35 replies 9 participants last post by  Bliss 
#1 ·
While coping with a steering and vehicle vibration problem, there comes more problems on my 06 odyssey EXL with 94000 miles done .... ://

I am experiencing juddering on this vehicle whenever ECO light comes on or when VCM kicks in.(i guess).Not sure when does VCM kicks in or how it works....

The car would judder (felt it worst on driver side and floorboard) whenever the vehicle is moving with gears in D mode and at all speed range. The juddering will start whenever car speed reaches above 15 mph and onwards. At gear number 2 or

1(lower gears) or D3 it does not judder and the ECO light does not come on.The judder only happens in D mode.

Tried it on highway several times to see if i could isolate the problem and this is what i have observed.When cruising at any speed as long as there is no pressure on the gas pedal, the ECO light would come ON followed by the juddering.And when i

accelerate, the judder stops and ECO light would go off. Released pressure on the gas pedal again,ECO light comes ON followed by the juddering. i have noticed that whenever it judders ,with just a very light pressure on the gas pedal

(accelerating)while trying to make the ECO light stays ON ,the judder would stop. This problem seems to be related to gas pedal movement. Another thing that i have also noticed many times is that whenever i start to drive off after every engine

start,i could hear and feel a sound (just once) coming from the gas pedal area. Subsequently i will not feel that any more until i turn off and start the engine again and move off.

With all this juddering that started many months back ,i also started having the check fuel cap light on.Got a new cap and replaced it.It went away for while but came back every now and then.The engines also felt rough at idle especially after the

very first engine start.

Well....after sharing my problems not sure if any one have advise or encountered similar problems like me.:((
 
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#2 ·
@ Bliss:
VCM=Variable Cylinder Management is a feature that is intended to increase fuel economy of the vehicle by disabling up to 3 cylinders when cruising with light pressure on the accelerator pedal. On paper it works wonderful. Under the hood, not so good..........for some, not all.

It has been linked to damaged engines requiring repair and/or replacement, excessive oil consumption, engine misfires due to fouled spark plugs, accelerated wear on motor mounts and strange noises emanating from the sound system speakers. It has also been litigated in a class action court case with Honda agreeing to extend engine warranty.

For more details see http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-2010-odyssey/152534-vcm-long-term-reliability.html

The good news is it can be disabled.

For more details see: http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-20...le-cylinder-management-disable-procedure.html
 
#3 ·
The good news is it can be disabled.
Apparently not on an 05', 06', or 07' though. Remember Ken, on these years, the VSA gets in the way when disconnecting the oil pressure sensor. No work around that I've found yet.

The car would judder (felt it worst on driver side and floorboard) whenever the vehicle is moving with gears in D mode and at all speed range. The juddering will start whenever car speed reaches above 15 mph and onwards. At gear number 2 or 1(lower gears) or D3 it does not judder and the ECO light does not come on.The judder only happens in D mode.
There have been at least three threads started on this subject over the past couple of weeks. Consensus it that it can be two things, motor mounts or torque converter. One forum member said that if it's the torque converter, the engine rpms will increase during the time that the shudder is taking place. Otherwise, it would be the motor mounts.

I'm having a similar situation to yours. Between ~35 to ~50 mph I have that weird shudder. Accelerating stops it. I also have a clunk when I put the van in reverse. Last week I visually verified that my front motor mount is broken. In light of that I'm replacing 4 of the 5 motor mounts this coming week. Although there are no guarantees, I'm confident that this will resolve the shudder problem.

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-2010-odyssey/214122-2005-exl-transmission-rumble-stutter.html
 
#5 ·
thanks guys... i am going to check the condition of all the spark plugs first.Is it recommended to only replace with OEM spark plugs which Honda charges $25 a piece or can i just buy it from places like Auto Zone?

Another question. Is there an oil pressure sensor connected or related to VCM which may cause the VCM to shudder due to a bad sensor ? Recently i bought an oil pressure sensor (see picture) from honda. Thinking of whether should it be

changed if it is related.Not sure where is it located or did i buy the right one?

Transparency Plastic bag Auto part
 
#6 ·
The OEM plug is NGK IZFR5K-11. No need to buy them from a Honda dealer at a stupid price.

A bad oil pressure sensor should turn on the CEL, so highly unlikely that is causing a problem without that indication.
 
#7 ·
In actual fact,i had intermittent CEL that comes and go in the past few months.When that happens the ECO light will not come on,but the juddering still can be heard but not that obvious and car does not vibrates that much.

Just weeks ago,i head to Autozone to download fault codes the first time when i had the CEL ON again.Guess what,it picked up 21 codes.It showed all 6 cylinder misfired,evaporator,fuel cap and i think i saw the ABS fault code

as well.The guys at Autozone told me to do an ECU reset as it unlikely to get some many codes at one time.Also to let the system resets itself.

I did what he told me by plugging the battery negative terminal and did some switchology thing and the CEL went off. however the judder still persist.
 
#8 ·
So by clearing the codes and the CEL not coming back on would lead toward torque converter or motor mounts rather than plugs IMO.
 
#9 ·
JCSHonda- i didn't take note of the rpm when it judders.Will do that when i drive out tomorrow.And yes i think i do hear a cluck whenever i engage reverse gear.And it always seems like something under hood is moving hard.

If indeed its the engine mount then it may also have caused my steering and vehicle to vibrate when driving above 70mph.How many of the mounts are hydraulic shock mounts? i was thinking of bringing it to my own mechanic

which i had my timing belts changed by him recently because i think its going to cost me much more going to the dealer.
 
#10 ·
How many of the mounts are hydraulic shock mounts?
There are three motor mounts and two transmission mounts. The front and back engine mounts are the 'active' mounts if the vehicle has VCM (EX-L or higher.) If you don't have VCM then the mounts are standard (and you are fortunate indeed.) The passenger side mount is what I'd consider a standard mount, although if I recall correctly it is fluid filled. The two trans mounts are just very simple rubber mounts.

For pricing, go to RockAuto.com and search for your model, then engine, then mounts. Aftermarket prices for the active mounts has come down considerably, I got both for around $300. The standard mounts are inexpensive anyway. Longevity on the aftermarket ('active' mount) parts is unknown (haven't seen any reports here on the forum), but the price makes them worth a try. I'm doing all of mine on Thursday, weather permitting.

I don't have any problems with the service that dealers provide. If one can afford it then I say why not. If, on the other hand, cost is an issue, then this is a job that can easily be done by a local trusted mechanic. Like many here on the forum, I do it myself for the savings as well as for the satisfaction of doing the work myself.
 
#11 ·
Thanks for sharing JCs Honda.Mine is EX-L so it does have VCM.I will check out the parts at Rock Auto then and probably get all mounts changed if needed.

Some says there is an oil pressure sensor that works together with the VCM.Where is the sensor located?
 
#13 ·
VCM or not i'd check plugs and valve clearance, I never had that judder in mine but I did on a clients van. Did plugs, valve adjustment and oil changes and all that crap went away.
 
#14 ·
Thanks JCs Honda for the pictures.

TSM_Pikachu- Yes the judder is pretty annoying.Without the judder the car is really smooth.Some time judder can be quite bad and sometimes its softer regardless of vehicle speed.As long i uses D3 gear the engine judders

begins.

I've changed all plugs 2 days ago.All looked worn out and quite bad especially the rear 3 cylinders plugs.Guess it was not changed previously since i got this car in Sept 2013.

Had never done v/v adjustment before.As for oil change i sent it to the dealer at very 3000 miles as their oil change package was reasonable.

Pardon me for asking this.I am still wondering how can bad engine mounts affect VCM system?
 
#15 ·
We're using NGK Laser iridium? The part # IZFR5K11 should be stamped on each plug and we torqued the plugs down properly to install?

Valve adjustment will help a bit but i'd check front and rear mounts first and then also axles.
 
#16 ·
....i'd check front and rear mounts first and then also axles.
That is a good point, to check the axles. From what I've read here on the forum the symptoms of failing CV's are similar, in that what are described as "vibrations" come on strongest during acceleration then pretty much go away as speed stabilizes or decreases. To me, the biggest difference is that with the CV joints, this all typically takes place at the higher speeds of around 60 or 70mph. CV's can be checked physically but can be tricky to verify as bad.

With the "shudder/judder" (as it is often described) issue it seems like the problem occurs at much slower speeds, in the 35 to 50mph range. From what I've been reading, this is also coupled with things like; a clunk when shifting into reverse, a noticable clunk when going slightly downhill and downshifting into first, and rather rough transitions that seem to occur when VCM kicks in and out. Motor mounts can be checked physically/visually and, from what I've heard of the Active Mounts, exercised by Honda Techs to verify that they function properly.

I am still wondering how can bad engine mounts affect VCM system?
Many would say that it's just the opposite, that VCM beats the engine mounts to death as they combat the vibrations that come from cylinder deactivation!! Otherwise, in my experience, the bad mounts make the VCM transitions very rough and unpleasant. That is precisely why Honda uses the Active Mounts, to dampen the vibrations from VCM. So, Can a bad motor mount(s) hurt the motor? I don't think so, unless you want to talk about breaking parts mounted directly to the motor which in my mind is a worst case scenario.
 
#17 ·
I found my motor mounts are bad, and I assume that is my vans problem. Similar symptoms. I am gonna replace all my motor mounts on mine soon with aftermarket ones that I heard are decent. Hondas OEM motor mounts are very expensive and not necessary. This guy has 20000 miles on these Ebay mounts and they are functioning fine. Another guy used Dea mounts and they corrected the problem and he so far has around 15000 miles on them. I will put some on my van and tell the forum what I think. The Honda factory mounts seem to konk out at around 50000 on these I Vtec motors...
 
#18 ·
I bought 4 of the DEA mounts, back/front and the two trans mounts. They look good to me and the price is right. I replaced the front mount yesterday but didn't get to the rear or trans mounts. The judder is better, but that rear mount is going to have to get replaced as well to fix it completely. I think we're on the right track with the mounts.
 
#19 ·
Glad to see there is improvements for you guys.

JCs Honda- i located the oil pressure sensor as you have indicated in your picture but the sensor looks a bit different from the one i bought P/N:37240-PTO-014.Yours has a connector but my look different.

Btw can a bad oil pressure sensor affect the VCM performance?

Transparency Plastic bag Auto part
 
#20 ·
The other day the dealer tested drive my car and told me that the juddering that i am experiencing might be caused by onboard active noise cancellation device. He said so because he noticed that my radio headset was not the factory fit headset that came with the car.i was not sure if i should take his word for it or not :))

And he also say that the fwd and aft motor mounts and side mounts are bad.When he showed me, the engine was rocking back and forth when he engaged the forward and reverse gears while pressing on the accelerator. Is this how you identify bad mounts??
 
#21 ·
Btw can a bad oil pressure sensor affect the VCM performance?
Okay, what you are showing is the oil pressure switch $16 and it goes down by the oil filter. The oil pressure sensor is different, it costs $100 and goes on the Vtec (spool valve) on the rear cylinder head. I don't know if the switch you show could cause VCM problems but since VCM is entirely dependent on oil pressure, I'd imagine that it's possible.

This, 37260-PZA-003 SENSOR, OIL PRESSURE $111.09 is the one that you'd be disconnecting at the rear cylinder head.
The other day the dealer tested drive my car and told me that the juddering that i am experiencing might be caused by onboard active noise cancellation device.
Yes, from what I've read, the ANC is pumped into the cabin through the audio system. It counteracts the droning noise in the cabin that comes from VCM. I don't know what the effect of disconnecting ANC would be.

And he also say that the fwd and aft motor mounts and side mounts are bad.When he showed me, the engine was rocking back and forth when he engaged the forward and reverse gears while pressing on the accelerator. Is this how you identify bad mounts??
Yes, that's the way. Additionally, you may be able to look at them and tell. The side mount has fluid in it and can leak if it's broken. Mine was leaking. Honda has a procedure for checking the rear which involves looking for a bulge in the mount and verifying that there is correct clearance between the mount and the engine bracket. But if your engine is visibly rocking back and forth that's not good.

So, get the mounts replaced, put that oil pressure switch in, and go from there. Keep us posted.
 
#22 ·
Between getting parts from Hondaparts and Rockauto, which might be more reliable with better price? Honda dealer quote $172 (exclude tax) for the VCM oil pressure sensor and Hondapartsnow.com quote $114.26 (exclude shipping) not sure how much rock auto.com quotes.
 
#23 ·
I only use RockAuto and for obscure Honda only parts I naturally go to the dealer. I might get some small insignificant things from the local auto parts store here and there. I have never had one single issue with RockAuto parts or service in all these years. I've ordered parts for the Ody, a Mazda, and a Toyota. I and am very comfortable with their prices, quality, and service. I rarely shop around for prices because they are always in the ballpark. Plus, I love using their website.
 
#24 ·
Sorry OP for hijacking your thread. But I'm experiencing a similar situation. Actually just the reverse of what you are experiencing.

Some background first, I just borrowed the 06' ody from my parents that they just bought this summer. I'm usually the one who maintains the cars in the family.
When we were out looking for a used odyssey i didn't know about all this eco mode and mounts and torque converter issues. So I didn't test drive long enough to see if the car was fine prior to purchase. Anyway doesn't matter now.

What's happening now is that I noticed that when cruising around 50-60mph if you put slightly more pressure on the accelerator and the eco light goes off I can feel what is I think a shudder/slipping sensation, the rpm goes up by about 300...I let go the gas and step on it harder so it down shifts and then it feels fine and it accelerates. I'm not sure whether its fine because it downshifted or because all 6 cyls are working again. I have a feeling that it does it only when ECO light goes off and I put slightly more gas as if demanding more torque from the 5th gear. I have seen it do this at 1700rpm (jumps to 2000) and at 2000rpm (jumps to 2300). At this point I'm fairly convinced it's the torque converter going, and having dead mounts too? I do hear thumps when going on and off ECO mode... But if mounts are dead, wouldn't I have lots of vibrations when running in ECO mode, like the OP?
I'm thinking about doing a 4x drain and fill with redline D4 to see if it cures the shudder? maybe I can extend the life of the TC, or it wont make a difference? What do you guys think? Maybe I should just try with valvoline maxlife first as its about half the price and more available?
I will also be checking the clearance on the mounts, replace them if necessary. I have seen that Anchor mounts are cheaper on rockauto, are they as good as DEA?
Sorry for the long first post. Cheers.
Phil
 
#25 ·
What's happening now is that I noticed that when cruising around 50-60mph if you put slightly more pressure on the accelerator and the eco light goes off I can feel what is I think a shudder/slipping sensation, the rpm goes up by about 300...I let go the gas and step on it harder so it down shifts and then it feels fine and it accelerates. I'm not sure whether its fine because it downshifted or because all 6 cyls are working again. I have a feeling that it does it only when ECO light goes off and I put slightly more gas as if demanding more torque from the 5th gear. I have seen it do this at 1700rpm (jumps to 2000) and at 2000rpm (jumps to 2300).
Welcome to the wonderful world of VCM/ECO/AMC/ANC and also to my morning drive!
 
#27 ·
Brought it to my mechanic the other day,he assessed it and told me there was no leaks or damage and nothing was wrong with all the motor mounts which includes the the

transmission mounts.He claims that the rocking was normal as it bounds to have rocking when it absorbs the movements from the motors. So who should i take his word?
 
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