Need pics of PGM-F1 location in 2005 Odyssey
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Thread: Need pics of PGM-F1 location in 2005 Odyssey

  1. #1
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    Angry Need pics of PGM-F1 location in 2005 Odyssey

    Hi Everyone.

    I'm very much a newbie to this forum. I ask for your patience and help.

    I have a 2005 Odyssey with about 180,000 miles on it. Up until a few days ago, it ran very well. My wife had driven it from the dealership, and experienced no problems. We had lost a key, so she took it in to have one made. A day or two later, she tried to start it but it wouldn't. I came out a couple of minutes later, and it started up with no problem. I really didn't have an explanation. Later, she tried to start it again, and it wouldn't. I tried it again, and it wouldn't. I sprayed some starting fluid into the air filter, and it started up, but pinging quite noticeably, so I shut it off. While she turned the key on, I listened through the gas filler tube for the fuel pump. I could hear it. I went to this forum, some others and YouTube for ideas. Overwhelmingly, the consensus was the PGM-F1 relay. There were other suggestions of battery, alternator, wiring harness, fuel pump relay and diagnostic procedures to determine what the problem might be. However, with the plurality of opinions being the PGM-F1, that was where I wanted to start, so I began to look for it. Again, there were pictures and videos of where it is located, what has to be removed to get to it, and just about everything one could want to know about it, including how to repair it. However, there was just one problem: it wasn't there- not under the dash, not on the drivers or passengers side panels, not in the fuse holders, not in the heater/radio area, and not under the hood near the driver side fuse panel where the dealer said it should be. I did discount any socket that had more or less than seven wires going to it, but otherwise, it was not in any of those locations. I will state that most drawings and pictures were for older Odysseys, Preludes, Civics, Acuras or something else.

    Could someone who has a 2005 Odyssey take a picture of it, please, and post it? I surely could use the information.

    Thanks very much in advance.

    ferroman244

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  3. #2
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    Angry

    Any help, ideas anyone?

    My bad on the location of the fuse block under the hood. I posted driver side; actually it is the passenger side. There are the fuses and small relays, about 7/8" by 9/16", the fuse puller and another plastic cover over a somewhat large metal box; against the firewall is a plastic box, but the relay and PCB inside look nothing like the pictures of the PGM-F1, then one below the power steering fluid reservoir that wasn't it.

  4. #3
    Registered User celicool's Avatar
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    It should be corrected that it is a PGM-Fi or PGMFI (Programmed Fuel Injection) Relay.
    2007 Honda Odyssey Touring 157K Miles W/ Premium Sound + Nav

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    Quote Originally Posted by celicool View Post
    It should be corrected that it is a PGM-Fi or PGMFI (Programmed Fuel Injection) Relay.
    I saw it listed both ways on the Inet. Someone suggested to look in the owners manual for the location. Checking the manual, it refers to it as a PGM-FI. Any idea where the PGM-FI is located on a 2005 Odyssey?

    Thanks

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    Not sure if that's what you need...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Need pics of PGM-F1 location in 2005 Odyssey-honda-pgmfi.jpg  

  8. #6
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    Next page over shows the location of the PGM-FI Main relay on the driver side kick panel in the cabin.

    Looks like there are two main relays. Main relay one appears to the the top middle, and Main relay 2 (fuel pump) is in the bottom row, closest to the driver seat.
    Need pics of PGM-F1 location in 2005 Odyssey-cci06162017.jpg
    Last edited by 7monkeys; 06-17-2017 at 12:31 AM.

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    Thanks celicool, OddyMember and 7monkeys.

    So I found the PGM-F1 relays 1 and 2. They were of the four-pin type, not 7. I certainly was not expecting that, but I'm sure two discrete relays could be used instead of two in one enclosure.

    The relay that was not the fuel pump relay was sort of brown in color, so I swapped it with another one in the fuse panel labeled "G coil". What is the G coil relay for? What does it control?

    It cranked up with no problem several times, but of course, it would crank occasionally before I switched them.

    The local parts stores all had the 7-pin versions, and that is what their manuals called for, but I'll take my relay in, and see if the can match it otherwise. What's the deal with its using a four-pin, but their manuals called the 7-pin for a 2004, 2005 and 2006?

    Thanks very much!

  10. #8
    Registered User John Clark's Avatar
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    A 2004 is a much different animal than a 2005 or 2006.

    I'm not sure how a consensus can be come to when nobody knows what's wrong with your vehicle. Some diagnostic is going to be necessary or you're just going to end up throwing parts at it until you're broke and frustrated.
    2008 Odyssey Touring-Silver
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    Your point is taken, and is very appropriate, John, for I simply don't know the differences between any of them. Apparently I didn't make my point well enough. I'll try again.

    The counter guy's effort of checking the 2004 and 2006 was to simply use what data was available to him to confirm that I had pulled the correct relay, based on the posts above. He didn't comment one way or the other which relay was the correct one, but the conversation did leave some curiosity in my mind as to whether I had removed the correct relay, particularly when it seems to have been used so much.

    The forums are full of posts regarding Honda vehicles exhibiting symptoms similar to mine. Almost all were repaired by either replacing the relay or repairing the relay PCB solder joint. I didn't count the responses, but overwhelmingly repairs were made by one of those two methods. From data distribution and probability, the problem was already diagnosed and a solution found many, many times by others, and, probably, all I should have to do is repair/replace the relay, and mine would be fixed, too. The biggest problem of that thinking was most all hits claiming to be 2005 Odysseys were for Civics, Preludes, Acuras, and earlier versions of Odysseys. However, since all were "in the family", there is some chance that the technology was used over and over across many product lines, their thinking possibly being that it works, and if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

    Likewise, you are correct in my using the word "consensus". I realized it was the wrong word moments after typing it, but rather than correcting it, I assumed it would not be an issue for most people; however I did change to "plurality" later in the post.

    It was broken, and needs to be fixed. The fact that the solder joint has failed across the board so many time bears out this conclusion. In quality and reliability, if the design, materials and manufacturing processes are perfect, the product is necessarily perfect, i.e. no widespread failures. But that's another story. All I want to do is repair mine easily and inexpensively, but if mine had used the seven-pin relay, I would not have repaired it that way, because it is repeating the same poor manufacturing techniques used by the relay manufacturer. Perhaps if a much harder solder could be used, that process would be OK.

    As I mentioned, the van has been used a couple of times the last few days, after swapping the relays around. So far, no problems, and we are about to use it again for a local trip. We'll see how it goes. Meanwhile, I'll take the relay out, and go to the Honda dealer for a replacement. By chance, do you know the full load ampere rating of the relay or the number of full load cycles it is rated for?

    To your last point, if I continue to have problems, of course I will perform diagnostics, but if so, I think I will buy a factory manual for it. Of the manuals shown in the Stickies, which one would be best, the electrical troubleshooting one?

    Thank you, John, for your comments and insight. This is the first Honda of any sort we have owned, other than a Scrambler motorcycle back in the sixties. I don't know the specifics of this one model, to say nothing of the differences between models. I'll try to improve my newbie status by being more specific next time.

  12. #10
    Registered User John Clark's Avatar
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    While only one year different, the circuit in the 2005 is MUCH different than the 2004 and it uses different relay. The PFMFI relays used on the 2004 are a 7 pin relay and the 2005 and up are a four pin relay and there are two of them. Just because the 7 pin relay is failure prone (and it is) doesn't mean the relays on the 2005 are failure prone. I haven't seen very many posts about failed relays on the 2005-2010 model Odys.

    So, while one of the relays can certainly fail in the 2005 you can't really use posts that refer to the 2004 and older Odys to give any indication on what might happen on a 2005.
    2008 Odyssey Touring-Silver
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    Hi John,

    I understand that a set of data for one model can't be used on a different model, if the two models are significantly different. As I mentioned, I don't know anything about any of the models, but since I could not find the 7-pin relay in my van, but I did find two of the 4-pin relays, relays 1 and relay2, I thought there would be some differences, even though they may be connected electrically the same as those in the 7-pin configuration. I didn't appreciate the magnitude of their difference until your posts.

    While I was at school tonight, my wife tried to go to the grocery store. It would not start. She didn't know about listening for the fuel pump. I'll try it again tomorrow, listening for the fuel pump before I turn the switch to the crank position. I'll pick up new relays, too.

    Does anyone know the difference, or the specifications, of the brownish relay and the other 4-pin relays used?

    Thanks,

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    Hi 7monkeys,

    Do you have a schematic you could share of how the two relays are connected and the devices they control?

    Thanks,

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferroman244 View Post
    Hi 7monkeys,

    Do you have a schematic you could share of how the two relays are connected and the devices they control?

    Thanks,
    http://www.revbase.com/BBBMotor/Wd/D...dPdf?id=115493

    Last page of the above link
    2008 Odyssey Touring-Silver
    2011 VW Jetta SE-Black
    2002 GMC Sierra SLT LB Z71-Red
    1998 Nissan 200SX SE-Blue

  16. #14
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    Hi John,

    Thanks very much for the schematic.

    It looks like Ry1 closes first latching power, and then Ry2 closes when the switch is in the right position.

    It didn't start for my wife last night, but when I tried it this morning, it started. I didn't get to the dealer for a replacement relay due to honey-do's, and now it's time to prepare for class tonight. I'll try to get to the dealer tomorrow.

    Thanks again, John. You've been a very big help.

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