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Why Honda skipped awd on the 2018 re-design

10K views 16 replies 9 participants last post by  davedrivesody 
#1 ·
Within the Odyssey's own segment, Toyota's current Sienna -- the top-selling minivan in 2015 and 2016 -- sells about 15 percent of its models with optional awd, according to Toyota. But none of this made it worth it to Honda.

"We looked at it, and one of the things we know is in order to put in all-wheel drive, we're going to have to raise the vehicle and we're going to compromise the interior," John Mendel, executive vice president of Honda, told Automotive News. "We really don't want to do that."

Instead, Honda wanted to focus on its flexible setup inside the Odyssey, which enables myriad configurations of the middle row of seats and provides a key marketing tool to counter the Stow 'n Go foldaway seat setup in Chrysler's Pacifica. Honda needed all the interior space it could get.

If this meant giving up a few buyers who wanted both a van and awd, it was a risk Honda was willing to take.

"For that customer we have the Pilot," Mendel said.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20170114/OEM03/301169996/1657
 
#2 ·
Ha, it needed all the interior space it could get? Why lower the roofline then? Car makers don't seem to understand the reason the US buyers are going crazy for SUV/CUV's, its because they are easier to get in and out of over the low slung cars manufacturers are designing. Chrysler admitted that one of the reasons the 200 failed was the the rear door was so low, you banged your head when getting in and out.
 
#3 ·
Maybe Honda skipped AWD so to keep their options open for a hybrid with rear-wheel-mounted electric motors?

Dave
 
#6 ·
I have owned Hondas since 1985. No problems with the 85 Accord. 1987 Accord LX front rotor problems, 1988 Civic DX rotor problems, 1989 Civic SI no problems, 1995 Civic EX Coupe no problems, 2004 Civic VP coupe no problems. 2007 Odyssey minor issues. Not as happy with it as the previous owned Honda cars. First van though. 2014 Accord LX not meeting Honda quality at all. Rust beginning on rear passenger door, small oil leak beginning between head and block near alternator, traction control kicks in at times backing down driveway at 5MPH when turning to left. They are going to have to get their QC back to where it used to be before I buy another Honda. Believe a Mazda 6 will be my next purchase.
 
#7 ·
I'm going to go with the theory they are still using the same body frame from the current 2016/2017 model, and just snapped on new panels on it. Look at the 2016, compare this thing side by side with the 2018 and see for yourself. Remember the spy photos of the 2018, they did not even cover the roof and most of the body. Same frame, so they can't fit a 4wd drivetrain in there because Honda doesn't want to spend money on redesigning a new frame that can accomodate the 4wd rear diff. That BS about raising the car and sacrificing the interior is a canned, generic answer you will get from Honda. That's all BS. Honda Japan has an 8 seater 4WD Honda Odyssey. Their Hybrid is 7 seater. Maybe they need to call Honda Japan and find out how they did it. OR maybe they know, they just refused to offer it. When you have people buying enough 2WD Odyssey and you're making a lot of money, you refuse to listen to the minority demanding 4WD since redesigning the car completely will cost more R&D money. If and when the new Sienna offers an 8 seater AWD/4WD, then they will listen.
 
#8 ·
I'm going to go with the theory they are still using the same body frame from the current 2016/2017 model, and just snapped on new panels on it.
This is incorrect; the 2018 Ody has a new platform, transmissions, updated engine, etc... They did not simply slap on a new body onto the old platform.

With that, I think the rest of your post is basically on the mark - it seems that Honda believes there isn't a business case for an AWD Odyssey in North America. They'd rather gently nudge those who insist on AWD and minivan-type size up to the Pilot, regardless of the fact that a van body like the Odyssey has a lot of desirable or beneficial characteristics that the Pilot simply does not.

I'd be willing to bet Honda has a pile of market research suggesting that they will be able to sell all the Odysseys they can paint even without AWD and that those amongst their customer base who really want AWD are more likely to be tempted by the Pilot than the Sienna.

Toyota is selling only one out of every seven Siennas with AWD. It's probably reasonable to assume the Highlander is keeping that number as low as it is. Who knows whether Toyota will bother with AWD on the next generation of the Sienna? And if they don't, then there is truly nothing lost to Honda by skipping AWD on the Odyssey.
 
#9 ·
I've been saying the below forever - AWD/4WD DOESNT MATTER!!! GET DEDICATED SNOW TIRES!! Everyone who lives in a snow/ice climate always says they feel safer and "XXXX vehicle with AWD/4WD saved my life".

Snow tires will help you start and stop better than any AWD/4WD system....



AWD Doesn't Matter in the Winter. Tires Do.


Why winter-specific rubber is the most important thing you can buy to make driving in inclement weather safer


https://www.outsideonline.com/21441...k&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=facebookpost



e could argue that automakers are responsible for making roads more dangerous during the winter. By putting their vast marketing budgets behind the promotion of all-wheel drive as a safety feature, they’re hiding the one thing that actually makes it safer to drive on snow and ice, and even on dry roads, in cold temperatures: a good set of winter tires. It’s tires, not which wheels on your car are driven, that matter this winter.




“No doubt, an AWD vehicle on decent all-season tires will get moving pretty well,” explains Woody Rogers. He’s the head of Tire Rack’s testing team, so he has evaluated virtually every tire there is, in a variety of conditions. “But with AWD, you can get moving easily enough that you can overestimate your ability to stop and turn. Every vehicle uses the same four contact patches to stop and turn. AWD is not a benefit there.”


The all-season tires that come standard on most vehicles (including all-wheel drives) should, despite their name, be thought of only as a compromised three-season option, at best. They may be adequate in mild temperatures, but their ability to provide any grip at all falls off as temperatures drop, and they’re not equipped to provide grip on snow and ice. What follows is a broad explanation of how winter tires differ from "all-season" ones.




Modern Winter Tires Were First Developed in Japan, in the Early ‘90s
“The air quality in Japan was falling off during winter months due to studded tires chipping away at bare pavement, creating airborne dust,” says Rogers.


Studded tires are primarily designed to boost traction on ice, where the sharp steel studs dig into the surface to find grip. Studs don’t really help on snow and can actually reduce traction in slush or rain, and damage bare pavement. Drivers can’t dictate the surfaces they drive on, they just need a tire that works across all the hazardous conditions they face in winter months.


“So, Bridgestone [a Japanese tire maker] set about developing a studless winter tire,” continues Rogers. “They wanted to create a tire that wouldn’t just work in the snow, but on ice, too.”






They're Made from a Specialized Rubber Compound
“You can think of an all-season tire like a candy bar,” says Rogers. “At room temperature, it’s nice and gooey and tastes great. But, put it in the freezer for an hour and you can shatter the thing. The rubber in your tires will do the same thing at extreme temperatures.”


“Flexibility determines your tire’s traction,” he continues. “Somewhere in the 40- to 45-degree range is where we begin to see all-season tires lose traction. The rubber becomes very stiff; it can’t conform to the texture of the pavement, and stops providing traction.”


Winter tires are made from a different rubber compound than all-season tires. Where an all-season works optimally from about 45 degrees, up to 100 or so, a winter tire is made from a compound designed to work best below that 45-degree point. (They actually grip fine in warmer temperatures, they just wear out very quickly.) By remaining flexible at low temperatures, a winter tire is able to provide safe levels of grip, even on dry pavement.


Like a Merino Baselayer, Winter Tires Wick Moisture
“A big mechanical problem with tire traction on ice is that, as your vehicle rolls across it, the weight and friction in your contact patch melts a very thin film of water in the moment that it’s underneath the tire,” describes Rogers. “You have a lubricant over an already slippery surface, so your tire isn't even completely in contact with the ice.”


Conditions also change rapidly during the winter. Snow can turn to slush, or ice in an instant. And even what looks like dry pavement can be covered with patches of invisible black ice. It’s the winter tire’s job to provide drivers with predictability and grip throughout all that.


How? “Bridgestone’s big innovation was that they developed something called a multi-cell rubber compound that’s actually slightly porous," says Rogers. "It works a lot like the technical fabrics in your outdoors gear, wicking moisture away from the surface. The multi-cell compound has empty, void space at a slightly-larger-than-molecular level. It gives the moisture somewhere to go temporarily, putting the rubber in contact with the texture of the ice surface.”


By allowing the tire to interact with the ice directly, it’s able to achieve grip. Other tire brands have adopted the technology as well, and it’s a big part of what makes the studless winter tire such great performers.


Their Tread Grips Much Better
Looking at a winter tire next to an all-season, it’s immediately obvious that the former has a much deeper, more open tread pattern that’s covered in small squiggly grooves. These add additional edges to help the tire find more traction. “These additional edges are called sipes,” explains Rogers. “They’re biting edges that provide the traction once the tire is in contact with the surface.”


The zig-zag pattern of the sipes makes them multi-directional. They add bite both front-and-rear, and side-to-side. Because they’re smaller and more flexible than the main tread pattern, they’re able to mechanically key with smaller imperfections in the surface you’re driving across. Think rough ice, or the grittiness in a paved surface.


Of course, the larger, deeper tread provides mechanical traction too, while also better clearing water and slush. “That way you take big bites out of the snow, rather than just nibbling at it,” says Rogers.




Winter Tires Can Actually Save You Money
A set of winter tires is going to cost you $500 to $800, or more, depending on your vehicle. You’ll also need to pay a shop to fit and remove them every November and April or invest in a second set of wheels to permanently mount them to. Sound expensive? In all likelihood, they’ll actually save you money.


“Most insurance deductibles are $500,” say Rogers. “If they save you just one little bump in traffic, you’ve paid for most of your winter tires.”


They’ll also extend the life of the tires you run the rest of the year. “Statistics say you’ll own your vehicle about six years," says Rogers. "And, in that time, you’ll go through two sets of tires. By buying winter tires, you move forward the cost of that replacement. You can easily stretch six years and five winters out of that combination, with no significant additional expense.”


But where do you store those tires that aren’t on your vehicle? “If you stack them up in a corner, they’re less than 30 by 30 inches,” explains Rogers. “That’s smaller than a couple boxes of my stuff from high school.”


And because you’ve now learned that it’s tires, not AWD that you need to drive safely in winter weather, you can also now save money by buying a cheaper car. On models where AWD is offered as an option, it typically comes at a $1,000 to $1,500 premium. Spend that on tires instead, and you’ll have a car that stops and turns as well as it accelerates.




Which Winter Tires Are Right for You?
The short answer: Any of them. “Even an average winter tire is going to be better on snow and ice than the best all-season tire can ever hope to be,” says Rogers. Literally any studless winter tire will improve your ability to drive in the winter.


He’s frank about what a challenge it is to convince people they need to invest in winter tires. You can explain that all-seasons stop working below 40 degrees. You can explain that you need winter tires in order to stop and turn on snow and ice. Countless web videos demonstrate that, on snow and ice, an AWD car on all-seasons can’t out-accelerate a rear-wheel drive car on winter tires. But until people try them, they just don’t understand what a night and day difference we’re really talking about here. Rogers also notes one other finding from his decades of experience: “We know once a customer tries winter tires in real winter conditions, they’re never going to go back.”


“We’re all better off if we have good traction,” Rogers concludes. “As I drive around on appropriate tires, I don’t have to worry about what I can drive through, I have to worry about the people around me. The people behind me who can’t stop; the people who can’t steer to avoid a hazard. Please, Mr. and Mrs. Reader, do the rest of us a favor and be on winter tires.”
 
#14 ·
I've been saying the below forever - AWD/4WD DOESNT MATTER!!! GET DEDICATED SNOW TIRES!! Everyone who lives in a snow/ice climate always says they feel safer and "XXXX vehicle with AWD/4WD saved my life".
First of all. I have no desire in buying and mounting a dedicated set of winter tires for when and if it snows in my area. Maybe if I lived in Canada. Tell me how snow tires help in muddy, and wet conditions. I don't understand why you think people wanting AWD want it strictly for snowy/icy conditions.
 
#12 ·
Ya, the only option the ody would become AWD was via rear electric motor(s) pushing the rear wheels. There is no room under there to put a drive shaft without raising the van a good bit, or moving fuel tank, spare tire etc.
It's a shame honestly, because I had hoped for a Hybrid option. Most of what we use the van for is local shopping or kid pickup. with a 30 mile battery range, it would be months before I'd have to visit a gas station.
I'm not really in the market, I hope to keep our 2011 for another 4 years at-least, but I was still hopeful to see something like that offered by Honda.
 
#13 ·
Unless the new incoming US government changes current long-term fuel economy goals, the Ody will eventually have to replace the V6 with a turbo 4 or make a Hybrid.

I haven't heard so much as a whisper about either one. This is still years out.

Dave
 
#15 ·
I agree. The turbo 4 would be the easiest amongst a bevy of very complicated options (turbo-4/hybrid/dead-duck diesel/hydrogen fuel cell?/dilithium crystals?)

A hybrid system would require a platform engineered to accommodate it and all the components. There is no hint that the Gen5 Ody has been designed for that. So a hybrid system is probably a Gen6 possibility, at least 5-7 years away (model year 2023/2024?). That would also be the ideal time to incorporate electric motors at the rear wheels to create an AWD system, if there is sufficient demand for that by then.
 
#16 ·
My vote

I hope there will be more interestingfeatures that go beyond a new engine, transmission and sliding seats. Maybe more features and models will surfacewhen Honda actually starts delivery. Forexample, the new Chrysler does have some dazzle and I wish Honda would haveincorporated some those features into its new offering. At the moment, I am disappointed with bothHonda and Toyota’s new van offerings. Iam sure they are both great vehicles as I have owned earlier versions of both. I was actually looking for a van that would besimilar in features to my wife’s 2016 Rav Limited Hybrid, which has a veryrobust set of features. I find it to bethe best car I have ever owned, and I have owned a bunch, from BMW, Mercedes,Cadillac, Acura and on down the line. The Rav Limited Hybrid is not like any other gas powered Rav. We got the Rav for all the safety features,and at the time, not because it is a Hybrid with great gas mileage. My wife loves the parking assist and thebird’s eye view camera. The car will goanywhere I want to go in the snow. Wehave a second home in the Colorado Mountains and have no problem running up anddown the mountain passes with just all season tires. Weird thing here in Colorado – the chain/snowtire law does not apply to 4WD and AWD vehicles. I do agree that for stopping, snow tires arebetter, but for going down a road with a foot of snow on it I have not had asingle problem. But I digress from myreal point. Toyota has doneexceptionally well with its hybrid line up and is continuing to expand onit. Toyota’s hybrids go way beyond fueleconomy as a reason to buy one. Someexamples are: Probably never have to replace brakes,No alternator to replace, No power steering pump to replace, No vacuum boosterto replace. The only belt-driven itemleft on the Rav4 hybrid is the engine cooling pump. All other belt driven itemsare either electrically driven by brushless AC permanent magnet motors or arenow part of the Hybrid Synergy Drive system. Notsure about how the air conditioner compressorworks, but it is not belt driven (probably an electric motor), so there is noloss of power when it is on.
The electric power steeringdoes not use hydraulics. Instead, the electric motor directly moves thesteering rack through gears under direction of the computer which has sensorsto detect your steering inputs. The motor which drives the steering is also anAC brushless permanent magnet motor which has no wear parts other thanoil-bathed bearings (which usually outlast the car).
The conventional hydraulicbrakes are powered by an electrically driven hydraulic pressure pump andaccumulator instead of by vacuum and a diaphragm. The lack of outside air entryinto the hydraulic booster eliminates the deterioration of synthetic rubberdiaphragms or steel parts from rusting. It does, however, have a 12 volt hydraulicpump which can, eventually, wear out - but it hasn't been a problem on even the300,000+ mile Prius taxis. Good design makes things last longer, apparently. The brakes are conventional just like anon-hybrid. However, when you apply pressure to the brake pedal the first inchor two of travel doesn't actually apply the hydraulic brakes. The two electricmotors, one in front (MG2) and one in the rear (MG3) provide the main brakingforces on smooth ground. The front motor/generator can provide up to 100 KW(134 HP) of braking force by using it as a generator to recharge the battery.Likewise, the rear motor/generator is good for up to 50 KW (67 HP) ofregenerative braking. You won't likely get that much before switching over tothe hydraulic brakes but in normal driving almost all your braking when above7-10 MPH is done by regenerative braking unless you really stab the brake pedalto the floor. If you hit bumps while slowing, since all the braking is beingprovided through the 'open' differentials, one wheel slipping over a bump ordip will cause loss of braking from that axle and conventional hydraulicbraking (or ABS limiting of that system) will take over. So if you don't drivelike Mario Andretti you will likely trade your hybrid before you ever need toreplace the brake pads - they just don't get used that much.
It has a CVT transmission,but not like your fathers belt driven one. It is exceptionally smooth and is fabulous for downhill braking with 6Sport mode settings. The conventional orCVT transmissions used on non-hybrids are deviously complicated and have internalwear items which the hybrid's torque-split device simply does not need. Thereare no fixed gear ratios like a standard or conventional multi-ratiotransmission so there are no sliding gears and cogs nor are there anyhydraulically actuated clutches or friction bands. The Hybrid Synergy Drive-IIIis in constant mesh all the time. Nothing slides and there are no clutches. Inshort, there's nothing to break or wear out under normal use. It only has 20 moving parts and here is a pageto look at for more info http://www.autoevolution.com/news/this-is-how-toyota-prius-gearbox-works-video-63918.html I wish my 2014 Odyssey transmission was astrouble free as this one.
The rear axle is electronicand will soon be appearing on other manufactures vehicles as they migrate to 48 voltsystems. The Rav is a 230 volt hybrid system,but as I understand it, manufactures are planning to move to 48 volt non hybridsystems vs. the current 12 volt systems. This means that vehicles will no longer need to be raised to beAWD. Someday, I hope that Honda andToyota vans will come with least a 48 volt system so they can be AWD withouthaving to find room for a drive shaft. Even though conventional sedans can be equipped with e-axles, I wouldstill prefer a van or suv, because they sit higher and are easier to get intoand see out of when driving.
Here is at least my votefor a hybrid van, and when I finally get one, America will be great again.
 
#17 ·
The rear axle is electronic and will soon be appearing on other manufactures vehicles as they migrate to 48 volt systems.
Yes, even non-hybrid vehicles will soon have to switch to 24- or 48-volt electrical systems. Modern cars have a lot of electrical gear that takes a lot of power. Doubling to say 24 volts would halve the amps needed to deliver the same power. So wiring would be smaller and lighter, improving fuel economy.

I guess it's not happening yet due to the cost of reworking every electrical part from light bulbs to power window motors.

Dave

PS: Great descriptions above how common systems in a hybrid function without access to a continuous mechanical power source.
 
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