Summary: Failure mode of 4-speed automatics - Page 4
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Thread: Summary: Failure mode of 4-speed automatics

  1. #46
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    Re: spin-on transmission installation

    Originally posted by cicco
    Thanks Watt-man, I followed your instructions on the installation of Summit's spin-on transmision filter and it worked out well. However, the Fram PH3387A filter has a metric thread and will not fit the 3/4-16 Summit threading. I had a transmission replacement on my '99 Ody 25,000 miles ago and the dealer did not install a transmission filter.
    Sorry about misleading you with the Fram part number, so thanks for reporting that. I've modified my 1/14/2007 post and removed that reference for future readers.
    Watt-man

    2001 EX, 190K miles, original owners. Original trans made it to 94K, even with 8 ATF changes over the interval. Spin-on, in-line filter in the system since 77K.

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  3. #47
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    Thought I'd chime in on a few other things.

    My original opinion in starting this thread in post #1 was that it's a low pressure issue because of debris in the system. I would argue that my opinion on that has not changed, in fact it has been bolstered by a recent visit to the Honda dealer to buy some ATF. I had a nice conversation with the service manager and he said they aren't allowed to rebuild trannies, but he's seen a number of them apart and "every one of them has the inlet screen plugged with debris". That would back up the failure symptoms we see in the 4-speeds. Secondly, and this is his opinion, it's debris from the lock-up clutch plate(s) in the torque converter. This would still tell me that the inline filter is a good thing.

    If we still see failures on vehicles with inline filters, the only thing I can toss out is that the particles of debris are large enough that they get stuck in the inlet screen, and never make it TO the filter to be captured.

    One other note. In an earlier post I was explaining that I wasn't sure if Honda changes the torque converter when they give you a new trans. My service manager was adamant that YES they ALWAYS replace the converter when they put in a trans. That's always been good practice in any car as you eliminate the ability to keep debris in the new system. But the service manager listed the second reason: he felt they must replace it because (again in his opinion) it was the source of the failure in the first place and thus needed a new lock-up clutch anyway.

    Overall I believe him about the debris being an issue, I'm not sure how convinced I am that this debris is specifically from converter clutch plates rather than clutch plates in the trans... just reporting what I heard.
    Watt-man

    2001 EX, 190K miles, original owners. Original trans made it to 94K, even with 8 ATF changes over the interval. Spin-on, in-line filter in the system since 77K.

  4. #48
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    This is very interesting (RE converter replacement).

    On the 2001 EX I recently bought with 105K miles from the original owner, the original trans died at 81K miles and was replaced under warranty with the following listed on the invoice:

    Qty Part No. Description
    1 06200-P7T-030RM WARRANTY 7367469
    5 08200-9005 ATF 6661920
    2 90471-PX4-000 WASHER, D 3300936

    I am assuming that the first item is the remanufactured transmission and torque converter. They did install that inline filter mounted to the radiator support when they changed the transmission per standard procedure.

    Now, right before I bought the van, the original owners had the van back at the same dealer (mileage 104,697) with a vibration complaint when the converter locks up. The dealer invoice reads: "Found that there is a vibration when the torque converter locks up in overdrive. Could be early signs of failure. Recommend replacement."

    Now, the invoice shows NO PARTS OR LABOR expended to correct this issue--only some labor for the diagnosis. The previous owner claimed that the dealer replaced the transmission again, and advertised this in their ad (which is why I was so excited about getting this vehicle). But I checked the tranny case and it was dirty and corroded, so no way that it was replaced. So either orignal owners lied to me and/or the dealer lied to them. If the dealer fixed something, even if under warranty, wouldn't they put it down on the invoice? Or, if they screwed up something the first time and corrected it sometime later, would they just quietly fix it w/o documenting their screwup? Hmmm . . .

    Owner claims that this most recent trip to the dealer fixed the problem. Test-driving the vehicle showed no issues, and we have 2K miles since buying with no tranny/converter issues yet. But I'm really wondering if this is what caused them to sell it. It certainly doesn't give me the warm fuzzies!
    2001 Odyssey EX 175K miles, 70K on the 3rd tranny, now running Dex III ATF with Lubegard Friction Modifier (black bottle)

  5. #49
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    Forum member BASEBALL shared this website in another thread. From what it seems, these guys are the ones who perform the majority of tranny rebuilds for Honda and Acura. There is a video of them re-building an 02 Odyssey trany that you may want to check out. (under Building Process)

    http://www.hnatrans.com/

    Edit: I did notice under their "home page" the following statement: "H&A Transmissions has increased sales 500% since 1999". Hmmmm, I wonder why?
    Last edited by herrhaus; 01-22-2009 at 08:35 AM.
    2003 Honda Odyssey EX w/156K (Miles):, Long Tru-Cool 22,000 GVW ATF Cooler (P/N 4544), Magnefine ATF filter, with Amsoil 5W-20 Synthetic motor oil & Ea15K13 filter, Repairs. Honda 4/5 Speed Torque Converter Failures, Sonnax Tech Sheet PDF

    2003 Honda Accord EX-L. 136K miles Yeah....I know.

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  6. #50
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    A Magnefine ATF filter installed around 43K miles (70,000 kms). Now at 55K miles (89,000 kms) with no problems or change in transmission behaviour.

    redmondjp, you should contact American Honda with the VIN# and they will tell you the warranty work done on the transmission and how many times. Also verify the owner history and if there was a claim on the Extended Warranty on the EGR.
    Last edited by New Dad New Van; 01-22-2009 at 12:41 PM.
    2001 Odyssey LX
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    UNOFFICIAL 2001 ODYSSEY THREAD: http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showth...664#post384664

  7. #51
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    Originally posted by redmondjp
    But I checked the tranny case and it was dirty and corroded, so no way that it was replaced.
    Don't use that as a criteria. The rebuilt trannies are from someone else's Ody. We live in Phoenix and our tranny case has always been shiny and clean. After our trans died and Honda "put in a new one", it's a much darker, dirtier case with some corrosion. Clearly they did not rebuild mine and reinstall it.

    Hope this puts you more at ease.
    Watt-man

    2001 EX, 190K miles, original owners. Original trans made it to 94K, even with 8 ATF changes over the interval. Spin-on, in-line filter in the system since 77K.

  8. #52
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    Originally posted by watt-man
    Don't use that as a criteria. The rebuilt trannies are from someone else's Ody. We live in Phoenix and our tranny case has always been shiny and clean. After our trans died and Honda "put in a new one", it's a much darker, dirtier case with some corrosion. Clearly they did not rebuild mine and reinstall it.

    Hope this puts you more at ease.
    Not really! Have you seen the video of how they properly remanufacture a transmission (up a few posts)? I have rebuilt several automatic transmissions myself (GM T350s), and it is standard to hot-tank the case/housing, or nowadays they use these hot-water industrial pressure-washing chambers (basically a giant dishwasher) to thoroughly clean the case before it is checked for damage (cracks, stripped threads, broken-off internal case dogs, etc), prior to reassembly. And the case comes out of this process looking virtually like new. Mine looks like it has been in the car for a few years (since it was definitely changed in 2006).

    Now maybe there are cut-rate shops out there that skip the case-cleaning step and just fix the internals. I'm not sure I want to pay over $2K to some shop that's not even going to properly clean the case. Granted, the outside of the case doesn't really mean much, but if somebody is anal about getting the outside perfectly clean, they are probably equally anal about how the insides are assembled (which of course is much more important).

    And New Dad (I am a 1-year New Dad veteran, as of yesterday ), great idea about calling Honda to see what warranty work was done. The last dealer invoice where they diagnosed a problem with the torque converter, where the cost goes, instead of saying "WARRANTY" , it says "INTERNAL" which makes me think that the dealer ate the cost of the repair themself (which THEN makes me think that the dealer screwed something up the first time when the first replacement transmission was installed and then fixed it on the last invoice, and didn't want to admit their error). So I'm not sure that the dealer even billed American Honda for whatever they did to fix the problem (which isn't even listed on the invoice).

    OT / dealer rant:

    Oh, and I was just underneath the van today to check for any damage from a baseball-sized chunk of rock (must have just fallen out of a dump truck going the other way, as it was bouncing down the pavement coming towards me), and I noticed that the Honda dealer failed to install ANY of the fasteners that hold the lower plastic engine cover to the front fascia--there is frickin' NO EXCUSE for a dealer to skip crap like this--they are the only shop that should have those fasteners in stock anyways. Every single one of them was missing. And all of the bolt heads that hold the transmission to the engine have blue paint on them, so they are not the original bolts. Former owner had all of their work performed at the dealer too, so supposedly no "unqualified" mechanics have even touched the thing - HAH!
    2001 Odyssey EX 175K miles, 70K on the 3rd tranny, now running Dex III ATF with Lubegard Friction Modifier (black bottle)

  9. #53
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    The transmission casing looking like it is covered in a sort of corrosion might mean it came from a parted out Odyssey in Japan.

    Generally imported low mileage engines and transmissions that come from Japan have the corrosion appearance, due to the small land mass and the salt that creates the corrosion appearance. There isn't any significant land mass to go inward toward to get away from all of the salt, unless you live on Mt. Fuji or something.

    So the outside might look like crap, but the internals are probably just fine unless you go to auto shows and put mirrors under the automobile it shouldn't be a problem.

    And if the internals are fine ... I don't see anybody taking the case apart just to dunk it in a cleaner. Just wouldn't make any sense unless you're a big pimping baller who has to have a shine on the casing and willing to spend the bucks to do it.

    This isn't to say the transmission came directly from a parted out low mileage Odyssey in Japan, just that used engines and transmissions are typically covered in some corrosion from there due to the small island being surrounded by a vast amount of salt.

    This is one of the reasons why the Japanese recycle automobiles at a frequency much higher than most of the rest of the world. If you're hanging on to an old car, you've got some big $ to make it happen (probably).

    Also for instance my low mileage JDM engine looked like ass compared to the old 190k engine it replaced. Corrosion covered too, wasn't unusual.
    Polished Metal Metallic 2011 Insight EX,
    Heathermist Metallic 1995 EX w/ JDM F22B,
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  10. #54
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    Dirty Tranny Cases

    My replacement tranny case was much dirtier than the bad one it replaced.

  11. #55
    Registered User herrhaus's Avatar
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    Please note that the website I previously listed doesn't say that their are the ONLY company that performs rebuilds for Honda. They are located in California. Honda may have another source for re-builds on the east coast. (I realize that you REDMONDJP are from Washington state.)
    2003 Honda Odyssey EX w/156K (Miles):, Long Tru-Cool 22,000 GVW ATF Cooler (P/N 4544), Magnefine ATF filter, with Amsoil 5W-20 Synthetic motor oil & Ea15K13 filter, Repairs. Honda 4/5 Speed Torque Converter Failures, Sonnax Tech Sheet PDF

    2003 Honda Accord EX-L. 136K miles Yeah....I know.

    My Dream Ride.
    ___________________
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    "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - M.T.

  12. #56
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    OT Update on my trans replacement

    Well, I have some egg on my face now!

    I finally got on the horn with the service advisor at the dealership where the former owner of my Ody had it serviced, and they did replace the transmission right before I bought it.

    What threw me off is that the former owner did NOT include a copy of this very last invoice showing the transmission replacement in the vehicle history file folder that I received. I only had the second-to-last invoice which showed that they had diagnosed a transmission problem (and at this time they ordered a replacement transmission, and the van came back a week later to have it changed).

    So replacement transmission #1 only lasted, um (let's see, replaced at 81,323 miles, replaced again at 104,878 miles) about 23.5K miles. So I am on transmission #3 at 107K miles. Man, that is not the Honda of old (my 'buy american' friend has a 1990 Pontiac Transport with original engine and tranny that is now ticking over 250K miles and still going strong, he's going to let me have it on this one!).

    I'll do everything I can to make this one last longer!
    2001 Odyssey EX 175K miles, 70K on the 3rd tranny, now running Dex III ATF with Lubegard Friction Modifier (black bottle)

  13. #57
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    And to make it last longer then install a stacked plate cooler and remote filter system, either Magnefine or full sized canister system (I like the latter better).

    BTW, with our replacement the case was dirty and the dealer installed a tranny "kit".... New internals as the behavior was quite different and symptoms disappeared.

  14. #58
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    Remedy for bad transmissions

    Like most of you we purchased the Odyssey for its dependability, so we thought! We keep our vehicles as long as possible. The last two vehicles had 225K and 250K miles.
    Purchased the 2001 Odyssey new. Somewhere around 70K miles the transmission went out. It was covered by Honda. Then around 130K, it went out again. With all of our vehicles, once the warranty runs out, we then take our vehicles to the world's best mechanic that I have known for over 40 years for all major work. Honda only performs routine oil changes on my vehicles after the warranty expires.
    Both my brother and husband had done research on why the transmissions went out and what to do to prevent this from happening again. Independent of each other, they both came to the conclusion that the transmission just gets too hot to handle the work load. So their suggestion was to change from the standard transmission fluid to a synthetic transmission fluid. I asked my mechanic and he acted surprised with their suggestion and said that he would ask the transmission salesman if it would be okay to switch to synthetic fluid and if so, would the warranty still cover the transmission. The salesman's response was that he didn't see why we couldn't use synthetic fluid and in doing so, would still be covered in the warranty.
    Now something could happen tomorrow, but right now I have 225K miles on the minivan with no problems!

  15. #59
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    Remedy for bad transmissions-Update

    The reason the synthetic fluid works better than the standard transmission fluid is because the synthetic fluid can tolerate a higher temperature than the standard fluid.

  16. #60
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    If "heat" is the issue, a tranny cooler is the most direct method to address the concern. Our 1st one lasted 102K with double fluid changes and 2 magnefines installed. Now it has a stacked plate cooler and full sized canister remote ATF filter.

    Hoping this will last as long if not longer than the original?

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