Stuck ignition coil - anyone ever have this?

[Littleneck]

(See first part of the story in Cylinder Missfire thread)

I have a number 4 cylinder ignition coil that is stuck in its tube. I was able to get out #'s 5 & 6 with no trouble, but number 4, in front over by the belts, was a no go.

eventually broke off the top part of the coil leaving the 'cigar' section in the tube. It is the 'cigar' section that is binding, no movement whatsoever.

I guess I will have to take off the intake manifold and then the valve cover to get a grip on the remaining part of the problem ignition coil part.

My question is, "has anyone ever experienced this?" namely a 'stuck' ignition coil? And if so, do you know 'why' it happened?

[Littleneck]

Well, I guess I am the only one with this problem.

My progress so far....
After removing the upper intake manifold and the front valve cover I found that getting a visegrip on the end of the broken off ignition coil still would not budge it even a little bit.

I decided to try to unravel the coil wire that was broken off from the top of the coil assembly. I found that it was actually two wires, one wound counterclockwise and one wound clockwise. By pulling alternatly on each I was able to unwind them and then pull out the 'core'. However this still leaves the outer shell of the tube of the ignition coil in the sparkplug tube. It is tightly wedged in there and will not move. I assume it was 'expanded' and press fit when the electronics of the coil failed. I noticed by prying loose a small bit with a visegrip, that the outer shell of the ignition coil is actually three layers of steel (magnetic, stuck to magnetic screwdriver) tough stuff it is.
I am going to attempt to use a large drill bit and or reamer to try to further clear out the remains of the ignition coil and then get to the end where the rubber grommet it. I still don't see light at the end of my tunnel, but at least there seems to be some progress. Still looking for any help or insight from the group.

[Littleneck]

well, still no interest in this, I guess unique, problem. I think I have roughly 90% of the old coil removed, but there is still the end down by the spark plug, hope to modify my slide hammer (shorten it using a bolt insteat of the long slide) to try to pull out the remainder. Wish me luck at least.

[davedrivesody]

Your situation has left me speechless! The tube has obviously bonded to either the cylinder head or the spark plug. I hope it's to the spark plug. The hole is too deep to clean out remnants of the tube. Keep us posted on your progress...

[Littleneck]

sadly the ignition coil bonded to the metal tube that is part of the head, I have had to literally cut it out with a number of improvised impliments. I think that when the ignition coil failed, it heated up and 'swelled', this forced the outer metal tube of the ignition coil to be pressed into a force fit in the tube that contains the coil and gives access to the spark plug. Thanks for posting to the thread.

[Littleneck]

Ok, the ongoing saga of the burnt out ignition coil.... I finally got to the bottom.
I got the last part of the outer caseing of the ignition coil removed and thought that the end should still be down there.
I felt around with a needle nose plyer and grabbed something and it pulled out easy.
"yay" I thought, I am finally at the end of this... But what came out was a very burnt up spark plug! Ouch! Anyone have an idea how this happened? Van passed NJ emissions just last month, was running fine right up until it ran rough for a mile or so and then died. This looks like it would have taken a while to do, how hot does it have to be to melt steel? I expect the spark plug threads in the head are gone.
Now what? (the other two plugs are the ones from cyl. 5 & 6, the dead one is cyl. 4.

[BreakStuff]

How many miles have been placed on this vehicle since the inspection?

That burnt plug appears to have been misfiring for quite a long time and probably quite hard to go unnoticed due to rough idle and misfires.

Was the Check Engine Indicator illuminated?

[Littleneck]

How many miles have been placed on this vehicle since the inspection?
Ans. About 600 miles

That burnt plug appears to have been misfiring for quite a long time and probably quite hard to go unnoticed due to rough idle and misfires.
Ans. No rough idle, no sign of anything wrong until it, no hard starting, no nothing. Smooth as silk until it started running rough last Sunday and between the rough running and blowing the ignition fuse was at most a mile or two.

Was the Check Engine Indicator illuminated?
Ans. Check engine light illuminated at the time of rough running, codes were for misfire on all six cylinders (see post to the 'cylinder misfire' thread in this section of the forum.

This is the problem, I can't believe that all this happened in such a short time, but until then there was NO sign that anything was wrong with the van. It can't run with a misfire and not be noticed! and surely a code would have been generated. But none of that happened! it was just boom! suddenly felt like you were running on rumble strips, but only around 2,000 rpm. At first I thought that it was EGR problem but then the car died, I pulled to the side of the road and got out my OBD II code reader and found that it was listing all misfire codes. Other plugs are fine.

[egads]

By the way, Littleneck, "Cylinder Missfire" does not yield any search results with the thread you are relating to. Here is the thread with his pertinent information:

Cylinder Misfiring

For those of you who do not want to go there, here is what this thread lacks:

It's a 99 with 241,00 miles on it.

Nowhere is it stated when the plugs were previously changed. Or at what mileage Littleneck obtained this van. Or what maintenance it's had.

[Littleneck]

I am the orriginal owner of the van.
Oil changed every 4,000 with mobil one synthetic. All miles put on it by me.
after second trans put in at 185,000 I have changed the trans fluid every other oil change. Plugs changed every 80,000 miles. Note: Plugs from cylinders #5 & #6 were NOT hard to take out as mentioned in other threads on the subject. I am not sure what this has to do with why the plug looks like it does? the other plugs look relativly good and they were in the same amount of time. The Van passed very stringent NJ emmissions last month, surely a missfire would have caused failure of this testing proceedure, it is not just a check of the CEL, but a sniffer up the tail pipe. No sign of roughness at idle or on the road, until the event which happened within a very short span of time. All I want to know is WHY and has anyone ever had this happen to them? Sorry, I refered to 'Cylinder Misfiring' thread as the 'cylinder missfire' thread. But for the most part it seemed as if no one cared anyway. egads is right, but offered no usefull information.

[davedrivesody]

Sounds to me like the #4 spark plug came loose and hot combustion gases cooked both it and the ignition coil. Assuming you changed them yourself, did you install them with an accurate torque wrench? Use too much anti-seize? Sorry if this seems accusatory - don't mean to rub salt in the wound...

- Dave

[egads]

Just trying to give BreakStuff some background. He is a Honda tech. Any insight you get from him will be gold. He rarely comes around, but has been very helpful. I do not have answers for you. But background can be very helpful to those that might. Remember, Click and Clack would want to know what color it was.

In the other thread, you report the hood stay loose in the engine. The damage sure looks like a short to me. that kind of damage (electrical) can happen in an instant.

Here's my real advise. Start over with another van. I have put over 200k on a few vehicles. After certain point, my heart just isn't into it anymore. Getting a new spark plug into there is going to be major. A new block maybe. It's too bad, as you have obviously taken good care of it and who knows how long it would have lasted? It may even be an insurance claim?

[Walt43]

The plug fix could be as easy as installing a Helicoil. It might be worth a shot.

[Littleneck]

Never used anti-seize for a plug, though after reading some of the stories regarding plugs seized due to long installation times I was considering it. Did not use Torque wrench, have always tightened by 'feel' since I have always had plugs with a 'crush' washer. Been working on cars and motorcycles for just over 40 years, and have never stripped a plug hole or had a plug seize. (though for motorcycles, I do use anti-seize on the aluminum case bolts, if you don't, there goes the philips head +) I plan on taking the head off to see what further damage there is before writing the van off. Maybe a helicoil will work if properly done, but I am a little bit leary on helicoils for spark plugs, I have seen too many fail on other people's cars. (for other striped threads they are great, but not sure for the spark plug in an aluminum head, cast iron maybe, but AL, not so sure, also not sure how big a hole I have to fix, helicoil is basically for a striped thread, not a blowout which is what I might have. Just hope the damage does not extend to the piston and bore.

[SuperDad]

Looks to me, as others have said, that there was some blowby of combustion gases. After a while(weeks) this would have burned off the threads and the blowby would be tremendous, and the plug(still held in place by the cigar tube), would still be igniting the mixture. The emissions likely passed because the ignition was still occurring. Some of the power would have gone to the piston so you might not notice the'miss', and ALOT of the power would go to heating the cigar tube and the ignition coil. I bet you'll find the o-ring at the coil completely cooked, because it wouldn't have a prayer of holding back the ignition pressure.

You're threads are completely fried no doubt. Check on a new head. I don't think I'd trust a helicoil here, and you need to remove the head to properly install the helicoil anyway.

The emissions test is looking for unburned fuel, and since the cylinder wasn't truly misfiring, it didn't notice the issue.