Registered: Mar 2006
Location: MD
Posts: 35

I thought I should start a new thread on the gas mileage topic in case others had comments on this issue.

This was taken from the Sienna vs. Odyssey gas mileage thread:

Originally posted by ChevyChase
Back to the gas mileage topic, I wanted to clarify about the "EPA" gas mileage numbers and the EPA sticker that is posted on cars:

"jbs24" is somewhat correct but the testing is done inside in a laboratory with controlled temperature (Aprox.77 degrees F) and humidity on a dynamometer (treadmill device) with a load to represent real world conditions. It is called the Federal Test Procedure (FTP) and there is a city and highway cycle that represent the city gas mileage and the highway gas mileage. The city cycle (the lower gas mileage number) is in my opinion unrepresentative and outdated since it was devised in the 1970's with an average speed of 20-30 mph and up to 62 mph max for a few seconds and goes for about 9 miles at mostly slow speeds. Since no one I know drives like this, this is an ideal driving condition to get the best gas mileage for car manufacturers. Hence that is what's reported on the sitcker. EPA is working to fix it some day, but don't hold your breath... Car manufacturers can voluntarily reduce their gas mileage numbers to be more representative in the real world, but none have of them have done it to date. Oh, did I also mention that EPA does not do the testing it is the car manufacturers who actually do the testing and provide their results to EPA.

So until someone really demands change to get more real world driving conditions we will be getting estimate gas mileage numbers from EPA.

There are a lot of factors that effect gas mileage, but I believe our Odys are one of the most inflated gas mileage numbers out there. I am maticulous about measuring the gas mileage and at 2,000 miles my engine (i-VTEC V-6 with Variable Cylinder Management) gets 16-17 mpg in the city and recenlty got 22 on mostly highway driving (woohooo....). I haven't measured a 100% highway driving test yet.

We should also not fully believe in the Toyota numbers since this is the company that rates the Prius at 60 mpg in the city but gets in the 40's under real driving conditions.


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caviller
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago Area
Posts: 1301
Re: EPA gas mileage

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ChevyChase
Back to the gas mileage topic, I wanted to clarify about the "EPA" gas mileage numbers and the EPA sticker that is posted on cars:
So until someone really demands change to get more real world driving conditions we will be getting estimate gas mileage numbers from EPA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Like this?

http://www.epa.gov/fueleconomy/420f06009.htm


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caviller,
that is a good find and you are right EPA is workinig on some fixes in the right direction, but these are like putting band-aids on a broken arm. As I mentioned, why not do it under "real-world"conditions. Remember the regulations are based on testing technology from the 1970s, since then we've developed the "computer" and there is technology out there where the testing of cars can be done in the real world using portable equipment. Car magazines and Consumer Reports seem to get more realistic gas mileage numbers using more modern techniques. My question to EPA would be why are we still testing cars in a laboratory and why not on a real road under real world conditions?

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Last edited by ChevyChase on 06-07-2006 at 04:50 PM

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we just got 26.2 avg over 2300mi in 3 days of driving.........so i call your 22mpg, and raise it by 4mpg...........

and city wise anywhere from 16-20mpg..........

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VFR pilot,
Not that I am doubting you, but just wanted to know how you got 26.2 mpg? Is it from the read out on your dash that Honda calibrated or is it based on actual miles driven divided by the gallons you pumped into the tank?

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using MID, which i'm sure has some error, but not enough to get 22mpg.......

it was my(our) first road trip, next time i'll do it more accurately. we do this trip several times a yr.

aside from that were very happy w/ the mileage, we're not unrealistic about the capabilites of the van, 4500+lbs, small V6...........great gas mileage.........lol

we were ready having driven/borrowed our friends '04 XLE limited........similar gas mileage.

we didn't buy a honda fit, and knew it.

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Last edited by VFR pilot on 06-07-2006 at 04:55 PM

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btw, we filled up as often as we did when we drove the route w/ our '93 camry V6, 1000 less pounds and similar sized engine.

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We consistently get 22-24 mpg with 80% highway (65mph) and 20% city - 2006 EXL/RES+NAV.

Calculated based on actual gallons used at fill up.

Our 2000 Odyssey EX gets the same mileage with 125k.

So...the VCM doesn't really help much....only more mechanical problems (bad engine mounts from factory)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by fern00ex
We consistently get 22-24 mpg with 80% highway (65mph) and 20% city - 2006 EXL/RES+NAV.

Calculated based on actual gallons used at fill up.

Our 2000 Odyssey EX gets the same mileage with 125k.

So...the VCM doesn't really help much....only more mechanical problems (bad engine mounts from factory)

---

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Last edited by VFR pilot on 06-07-2006 at 05:31 PM

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ChevyChase,

I'm not going to say whether I think the EPA numbers are realistic or not (in your thread). But I will tell you that my opinion is that the EPA ratings from manufacturer to manufacturer are RELEVANT. Which means that if for example the Ody's ratings are 20 - 28, and the Sienna's was (for example) 18 - 26, then I wouldn't necessarily expect a driver to achieve those numbers, but I would expect the Ody to average about 2 mpg better than the Sienna.

Those numbers were just for example, I don't know the Sienna's actual EPA ratings. But that is the purpose of measuring fuel economy in the lab. It eliminates or greatly reduces variables. It keeps everything apples to apples. OEMs are trained how to conduct these tests for themselves, and if they're caught not performing the tests they way they are supposed to, then they can be heavily fined. In my opinion, the lab is the only way to create a fair rating. As for the set-up of the test, I'm sure it could be improved to be more real world. As most people drive like lead-footed idiots.


Lastly, check out my Maximum Fuel Mileage Challenge thread. It was hand calculated from top-of-the-neck to top-of-the-neck. The drive conditions were near perfect, I cruised at 70 mph with 2/3rds of the time using the A/C. I got 27.3 mpg, with the M.I.D. saying 25.4 mpg.

I think its feasible that VFR Pilot achieved 28 mpg based on the error in my M.I.D.'s calculation. Read my thread, its all discussed, including the error.

- JyRO

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quote:

---

Originally posted by VFR pilot
how does the VCM effect engine mounts? you'd think that was a universal prob. vs VCM engines only...

sounds alot of people want their cake and be able to eat it too......

---

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I guess I was hoping for better mpg something in the high 20's, but haven't seen it yet. My ten year old car a 97 Pontiac Grand Prix weighs 1000lbs less with a similar engine gets 20 in the city and 27-28 on the highway consistently(close to the MPG label), and I drive the minivan more gently. After a decade of technological engine and transmission improvements I thought this minivan should do better.

Now that I think back to all the cars I have driven in my life, since the 1980's, I had never owned a car that got less than 20 mpg, I guess that is why I'm disappointed with the Ody.

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mass & drag...

Technology aside, it weighs 1,000 lbs more and is shaped like a brick. Wind drag kills economy on the interstate compared to your Grand Prix. And having to accelerate that much more mass than your Grand Prix kills economy in the city.

Personally, I don't think the 3.5 L in the Ody is that advanced. The VCM is hardware controlled by software/electronics. Not too advanced. Most fuel injected vehicles could be "tuned" by fuel mapping for better fuel economy but usually at the sacrifice of emmissions (from my understanding). Its always a give and take for the manufacturers. They get the most power & economy they can at their current level of development, while meeting EPA regulations.

- JyRO

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sounds like you've never driven a vehicle as big either........not only is the ody heavier, but it's also alot less aerodynamic........

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I no longer have the link (and it's not relevant anyway since it's since closed) but for a while Consumer Reports had an open link that summarized *all* of their MPG determinations for cars tested in '05 I think.

As mentioned in some of the other MPG related threads, the CR data had just about *every* vehicle coming in well below the EPA city rating under their "city" test loop. To the tune of 12-13mpg for the Sienna and Odyssey. They also had most vehicles coming close or slightly higher than their EPA hwy rating for their own "highway" test loop. (iirc, they had put Ody and Sienna somewhere around 30mpg, maybe 28 for the Ody EX)

As Jyro's said, it still should work as an apples-to-apples comparison, as whatever "inaccuracy" there is in the EPA testing should affect a 2-ton Toyota in a similar manner as it affects a 2-ton Honda.

FWIW with 20k on the clock I'm still getting around 18-20 mpg in mixed driving with pretty heavy amount of city driving. I've gone as high as around 24-25mpg based on a total miles per fillup on weeks where I have less idling around. (AC still on, still with a fair portion of city driving). I've gone as low as 14-15mpg, but that required literally hours of idling in cold weather and oxygenated fuel.

--> Andy

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Last edited by Pahtoe on 06-07-2006 at 05:58 PM

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OK. At first, I had the same issues people had with the car performing worse than the EPA ratings.

Just yesterday while going from Syracuse NY to Gadsden AL, I was seeing MPG (via the MID) ratings close to 28MPG.

I think it is just a matter of allowing the engine to break in.

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So how long have you had the Ody? Only 2000 miles? As a long time Honda owner, I can tell you that the engine is not even a little broken in. Hondas start to get broken in at around 10,000 -15,000 miles. If it has taken you months to get that 2k on there then your "city" mileage is all very short trips. You will never get better than mid teens with that use in a big brick like this. (ask Wild Willy) As has been said here, EPA mileage numbers are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary.

As an aside, and just to disagree with many around here, do leave the break in oil in there for as long as the mid tells you. Then make sure you use the right oil after that. 5w20, semi synthetic or better.

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