Found out why my transmission was slipping, pics
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Thread: Found out why my transmission was slipping, pics

  1. #1
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    Found out why my transmission was slipping, pics

    it was definately the spring on the 3rd clutch drum which I predicted, the at5 video from weberauto was correct. crooked spring holder, in fact the whole spring on the bottom is sticking way too far out, something went completely wrong when they made this spring, it wore down everything inside the drum, all the frictions are completely gone. the frictions and steels feel smooth even though they are scored looking. there is no roughness like that report said about rough steels. after replacing 3rd and 4th pressure switches before even taking out the transaxle there was only occasional slipping. I need to figure out what to buy next oem, or the hardened drum kit for $200. look at these pics
    P_20181123_010740.jpg P_20181123_010805.jpg P_20181123_010811.jpg P_20181123_010821.jpg P_20181123_010826.jpg P_20181123_010851.jpg P_20181123_010911.jpg P_20181123_010956.jpg P_20181123_011004.jpg P_20181123_011048.jpg
    Last edited by eksine; 11-23-2018 at 04:40 AM.

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    Last edited by eksine; 11-23-2018 at 04:44 AM.

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    the black dirt or grit on the drum itself, isn't dirt, that's metal, the spring is worn on the bottom and the drum too. I'm still making the teardown video (not as if people care) but I'll post it when I'm done

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    notice the spring itself is HIGHLY deformed, look at the bottom ring, it is sticking out so far it rubbed against the gear itself. there is a double gear that goes inside this drum, it was stuck on there, had to use a 2 gear puller to help me get it out, did require hardly any force but without apply equal pressure that gear was stuck on there like a spring, it kept springing back inside the drum, could not get it out with screwdrivers prying at it. the spring is worn because it spun inside that drum, that spring isn't supposed to spin, I think it was because the holder for the spring which also spun was crooked which it's not supposed to be

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    I just found out there is a piston at the bottom of the drum, I think it can be saved which is good because the drum is $252, I would have bought the hardened drum kit which includes the piston, etc (I might still do it). but from these pictures you can see at minimum I would need to replace the piston, spring, spring holder/retainer, smaller circlip (was damaged believe it or not from the spinning spring), the castle nut looking washer that the star shaped needle bearing sits on, that's it, those should all be inexpensive parts, the piston is $63. the only other thing weird other than the extremely warped spring is that the large o-ring around the edge of the piston was in like 7 pieces like it was shattered glass, but the o-ring is still stretchy, so it's not even hard and brittle and the cuts are kinda clean, not like it was stretched and sheared.

    the drum looks like it can be reused
    P_20181123_042957.jpg
    here's the piston where most of the damage happened, other than the discs $63
    P_20181123_043009.jpg
    the castle nut looking washer that was inside the double gear $18, its worn out on the bottom, replace
    P_20181123_043031.jpg
    the spring wore out the bottom part of the double gear, it's a hollow double gear and it was stuck inside the drum because the spring was so expanded and warped, had to use 2 jaw puller to get this thing out, only because it required very even leverage to precision it out. I should be able to reuse it, but I'll check it out more later
    P_20181123_043058.jpg


    the metal I thought was at the bottom of the piston might still be metal because even with metal tools scraping at it it feels hard but I am missing one of the smaller o-rings on the piston, the large one is the one in pieces, but the missing o-ring could be a part of what I thought was metal, some of it has to be metal, the metal from the spring went somewhere, but it could be mixed with the nitrile o-ring, I'd have to really study it to be sure
    Last edited by eksine; 11-23-2018 at 07:56 AM.

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    Anything scored should be replaced is my thinking. Measure all parts and match to specs. If not within specs, replace. If in doubt, replace.

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    well the double gear is $77, not bad but it's scored on an unimportant part and doesn't compromise strength hardly any. I used to do what you said and just replace everything. that's how I ended keeping this van. wish I woulda sold it but I dumped thousands on parts into it. it taught me a lot but it's like 50/50 if it was worth it. I'd rather try to understand what is really important, for example I spent hundreds on buying every bearing inside this trans. I know that and the gpx frictions I bought will make the most difference. and the sonnax valve thing, but I didn't have a burnt converter so I don't know if I need it really. I mean 3rd gear ran with zero frictions the tolerances can't be that important.

    I figured out how to fix the spring problem, weld the bottom of the spring to the piston or weld a stopper so the spring can't rotate. I don't know how to weld or have any equipment so I might have to pay big bucks for a shop to do it.

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    I found the o-ring I couldn't find, it's actually in the picture of the piston, the o-ring is on the inside hole where the shaft would go through. so that means all that debris is really just metal and not rubber at all

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    What does alldata say? I never heard of welding anything when rebuilding transmission innards. I'd say no to that idea.

    If a failed part damages other parts next to it, it must be replaced if its out of specs. Specially with very small tolerances like the inside of a transmission.

    I strongly suggest to get a new TC when you are all done if you don't plan to rebuild it.

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    I found out reason why the spring failed is because something caused the frictions to wear out once it did the spring couldn't keep enough tension on it so everything was loose and it just spun around. so yeah I'll skip the welding. I never heard of rebuilding the TC, you would have to cut it open, how would you even weld it back evenly?

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    Just looking at all of those pictures and thinking where all those metal particles could have circulated through all of the passages in the transmission makes me nervous.
    If it was me, I'd use this transmission as a learning curve and not put any money into it. I would start looking for a slightly used one, hopefully with low mileage and rebuild that one. At least you would know that one would have slightly worn frictions and no metal wear.
    The kiss of death in a hydraulic system is dirt which in turn would include metal and friction material.
    For me to use that transmission with complete confidence, I would have to clean, inspect, measure and flush every component. Thinking, that would be a week long job for me.
    Just giving you my 2 cents as I work around and rebuild industrial hydraulic components.
    Also, one of my instructors/teacher told us that if a thread off one of your rags that you are cleaning your components with gets into your transmission, it could ruin it. That comment has stuck with me since I was a teen.
    2000 Odyssey EX

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    no I don't think there'll be any problems except maybe getting out and in the bearings and taking my time figuring where everything is on the valve bodies. I did pick up a few big pieces of metal inside there but it was actually on the 34mm nuts that hold each shaft in. I don't know why your instructor would say that about 1 cotton thread, I think that's laughable. I had teachers that taught paranoia and that would hurt you rather than help you with that kind of mindset. in trucking people say the transmissions are designed to crush rock (which makes no sense, obviously transmissions aren't designed to crush rocks) but no, I think a (car) transmission could survive someone dumping some sand in there, not every time, maybe sometimes that would kill it. I think what really kills a transmission is bad engineering, that's why all our transmissions are dying. I might sound like I don't care but I do and I'm recording every step I make and explaining things as if I knew nothing and I'm laying things on the ground just like an exploded diagram, and picturing each assembly in my head. it will work, I won't need a second chance. one shot one kill

    Quote Originally Posted by v4forever View Post
    Just looking at all of those pictures and thinking where all those metal particles could have circulated through all of the passages in the transmission makes me nervous.
    If it was me, I'd use this transmission as a learning curve and not put any money into it. I would start looking for a slightly used one, hopefully with low mileage and rebuild that one. At least you would know that one would have slightly worn frictions and no metal wear.
    The kiss of death in a hydraulic system is dirt which in turn would include metal and friction material.
    For me to use that transmission with complete confidence, I would have to clean, inspect, measure and flush every component. Thinking, that would be a week long job for me.
    Just giving you my 2 cents as I work around and rebuild industrial hydraulic components.
    Also, one of my instructors/teacher told us that if a thread off one of your rags that you are cleaning your components with gets into your transmission, it could ruin it. That comment has stuck with me since I was a teen.

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    That's great you have confidence on this rebuild, just wanted to point out a few things that you may not of heard or seen before.
    One more thing that may change your mind on this rebuild., it is not the things you can see, it's the things you can't see. A human eye can only see a particle that's 40 mircon in size, on hydraulics, it's the particles that are smaller than 40 microns that wear it out or seize up the parts like the spools in it.
    You may want to do a little research on particle size ISO count.
    2000 Odyssey EX

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    I have a theory on why 3rd gear is burning out. so someone said the frictions wear out, the spring can no longer hold tension so it destroys itself. the 3rd clutch wear is super obvious so the problem is most likely super obvious. there's 3 obvious reasons why it would wear out.
    1) they did the oil rejet to lubricate 3rd gear didn't they? if under lubricated than overfill the transmission ATF by a quart or more
    2) the spring is too short, it doesn't fully disengage the clutch pack causing it to constantly wear even when not used, than that causes it to destroy itself
    3) there isn't enough pressure when 3rd clutch engages so it's only partially engaging wearing it out faster.
    I'm told the spring has nothing to do with the problem because there's no mention of it.

    my money is on the spring, I'd say 60% chance it's too short or weak. the low pressure to 3rd gear you should be able to test by just putting a gauge on the pressure switch, I think. it's an obvious problem, the spring has to be the obvious solution. just get a bunch of transmissions with all new frictions and steels and on 1 overfill atf, 1 with a longer spring, and 1 with increased pressure to 3rd gear( not sure how)

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    I have the thickest glasses out of every one I've met, before they made thinner glasses mine were like 1/3" thick. so I can def not see 40 microns. but I mean we have microscopes, but I know what you're saying. What I was saying is there is a chance one of the 2 filters will catch the stuff and if not, the magnets (2) could if it's steel. every one cleans the transmission as they reassemble it. So I'm confused as what you're trying to say, I mean I'm not so careless as to do some sewing right over the transmission or actually take lint out of my pocket and put it in there. what you're saying is really obvious. I'm more worried about not assembling it right. foreign particle is the least of anyone's worry.

    Quote Originally Posted by v4forever View Post
    That's great you have confidence on this rebuild, just wanted to point out a few things that you may not of heard or seen before.
    One more thing that may change your mind on this rebuild., it is not the things you can see, it's the things you can't see. A human eye can only see a particle that's 40 mircon in size, on hydraulics, it's the particles that are smaller than 40 microns that wear it out or seize up the parts like the spools in it.
    You may want to do a little research on particle size ISO count.

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