Switched from VCMuzzler to S-VCM - Page 3
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Thread: Switched from VCMuzzler to S-VCM

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by CroMath View Post
    How have you arrived at this conclusion? I don't think I see how changing the thermostat affects what S-VCM does.

    The S-VCM is supposed to receive the true coolant temperature from the ECT1 sensor as its input data and respond to whatever it reads. The fact that your coolant might be hotter to start with simply means that S-VCM's adjustment of the output signal would be greater (to keep the reported temperature below VCM's activation threshold), but that doesn't affect the actual coolant temperature or how your heater works.
    I am guessing at this conclusion based on reading of how svcm works. i am likely and hopefully wrongly.

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  3. #32
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    This is all very interesting. Thank you for the write-up. I’m new to VCM suppressors and only became aware of them from your very valuable comment in my other thread.


    A few questions come to mind:


    Instead of the simple resistive VCMuzzler, why not solder a resistor to the ECT#1 line, or perhaps even a small potentiometer instead of paying all that money for a resistor and a couple of connectors? With the potentiometer one could also tweak the resistance until they get the desired behavior.


    For the temperature gauge, wouldn’t it be enough to derive the new temperature scale (would essentially be a compressed scale on the hot end)? I suppose one could even open the instrument panel and tape the new scale on the temperature gauge.


    I imagine that with the S-VCM you would still see some compressed temperature readings on your instrument panel -- except when the S-VCM detects its pre-programmed overheat value (I wonder what that value is ) at which point it would let the true resistance through and you would see a sudden jump in the temperature gauge?


    I would gladly put some sort of VCM suppression device on my 2012 Odyssey. However I’m concerned that a chronically suppressed temperature reading to the ECU may have other unintended consequences. For example alteration of fuel trims, more O2 or unburned fuel ending up in the catalytic converter and thus perhaps a shortened cat life, just to mention one.


    Is there a way to capture the VCM activation output signal from the ECU on the OBD2 port? That would answer the correlation between VCM and ECO indicator on the dashboard.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by se88GGnka View Post
    This is all very interesting. Thank you for the write-up. I’m new to VCM suppressors and only became aware of them from your very valuable comment in my other thread.


    A few questions come to mind:


    Instead of the simple resistive VCMuzzler, why not solder a resistor to the ECT#1 line, or perhaps even a small potentiometer instead of paying all that money for a resistor and a couple of connectors? With the potentiometer one could also tweak the resistance until they get the desired behavior.


    For the temperature gauge, wouldn’t it be enough to derive the new temperature scale (would essentially be a compressed scale on the hot end)? I suppose one could even open the instrument panel and tape the new scale on the temperature gauge.


    I imagine that with the S-VCM you would still see some compressed temperature readings on your instrument panel -- except when the S-VCM detects its pre-programmed overheat value (I wonder what that value is ) at which point it would let the true resistance through and you would see a sudden jump in the temperature gauge?


    I would gladly put some sort of VCM suppression device on my 2012 Odyssey. However I’m concerned that a chronically suppressed temperature reading to the ECU may have other unintended consequences. For example alteration of fuel trims, more O2 or unburned fuel ending up in the catalytic converter and thus perhaps a shortened cat life, just to mention one.


    Is there a way to capture the VCM activation output signal from the ECU on the OBD2 port? That would answer the correlation between VCM and ECO indicator on the dashboard.
    All asked, answered and discussed ad nauseum in numerous other threads.

    Variable resistor: Already done and can be bought with the MaxMuzzler and the VCMTuner.

    Unintended consequences: None-other than you might get an occasional check engine light for a P0128 if you're suppressing the temp too much--that's why there are numerous different resistors or the variable resistor.

    VCM activation can't be captured and disabled via the OBDII port.

    Soldered in resistor: Yes, you can do that if you like your wiring harness hacked up and have no intentions of removing said soldered in resistor. You also open yourself up for corrosion or other damage to the harness, especially for those who live in salty road environments. Having a completely reversible method that can be installed in less than 60 seconds is not a bad deal for $100. S-VCM takes a few more minutes and does a bit more but similar end result and is reversible.
    Last edited by John Clark; 09-23-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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  6. #34
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    Thanks John. I’m just newbie here so I had not yet run across the extensive information already posted. Hard to find something if you don’t even know it exists.

  7. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by se88GGnka View Post
    Thanks John. I’m just newbie here so I had not yet run across the extensive information already posted. Hard to find something if you don’t even know it exists.
    Not to worry se88GGnka - the information available on Odyclub alone is truly extensive; the number of posts dedicated to figuring out how best to deal with VCM number (without exaggeration) in the thousands. And then when you combine that with the bank of knowledge built up parallel to us here by people on the Accord, Ridgeline, Pilot and Acura forums, we're into the tens of thousands. VCM has given a lot of people a lot of pause over the years, and it has been years that people have been working on the various solutions that exist today.

    The biggest advantage to the pre-made solutions is the ease of installation and removal; these devices are absolutely not endorsed by Honda at the corporate level and being able to easily remove them without a trace before going to the dealer for service or warranty work is really nice. Also, a cut wiring harness is an immediate red flag for a lot of people when it comes time for resale. A knowledgeable observer can tell if the wiring has been cut, no matter how good a job the person doing the cutting did. There are also some service procedures that require an unaltered signal on ECT1 to be completed properly, so the soldered-in approach isn't the best one. The popular resistance-based options like VCMuzzler and MaxMuzzler are very high quality pieces that have been shown to be dead reliable by thousands of users over (probably) millions of miles driven. S-VCM is a newer technology but it is also proving to be an excellent choice thus far.

    I'm trying to keep this thread focused on S-VCM as much as possible, but the other options are truly excellent and they're well-documented in other threads.

    You strike me as the type who would indulge in reading through at least some of the more comprehensive threads on mitigating VCM, and I would totally encourage that. I think it's interesting to watch the research and learning unfold as you read about how concerned owners (with no factory support) were stepping up to help each other protect their investments.
    2015 EX - Shear Comfort seat covers, Husky Liners floor liners, OEM cargo liner, S-VCM, Street Guardian dashcam, Lubegard Red

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  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by se88GGnka View Post
    ...Instead of the simple resistive VCMuzzler, why not solder a resistor to the ECT#1 line...
    Why not? - Most people can't understand how to do that. They're lost at "solder" or even "why."

    Sounds like you can. I did exactly that, and it works great. I used spade connectors so it is easily removable if ever needed (not needed so far). Total resistance for me, which seems about right is 77 Ohms (ECO light has come on only once in the last few years, in a pretty extreme condition). That's also about the parts cost, in cents. And it looks better and is probably more reliable than much of the original wiring in the engine bay.

    Not for everybody, but since you asked the question, it might be just fine for you.
    2011 Odyssey LX, 106k miles
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  9. #37
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    But I much prefer accurate Temperature readings, which the S-VCM provides. Especially important when pulling a trailer.

    Switched out from the VCMuzzler to the S-VCM two weeks ago. No problems with the VCMuzzler during the time it was on the vehicle. It did what it was suppose to do.
    2011 Odyssey EX setup to tow a 2007 Thule utility trailer & 2018 Atlas Enclosed 4x6 trailer.
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  10. #38
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    Seems like the S-VCM would work, however I'm skeptical that it will report accurate temperature when the engine is at normal operating temperature range.

    My hunch is that the S-VCM's digital logic, initially, while the engine is warming up, is reporting to the ECM the exact same resistance (i.e. temperature) that it reads from the sensor. There is no reason to fake the resistance/temperature in this engine warmup phase.

    However once the engine approaches normal operating temperature and the resistance the S-VCM is reading from the sensor drops below that magical VCM trigger resistance (allegedly corresponding to 167 degrees whatever that resistance is) then the S-VCM starts reporting to the ECM a constant resistance corresponding to 167 degrees (probably a little lower since the S-VCM designer would have left some safety margin, say 164 degrees(?), and that assumes all ECMs are programmed the same and don't have some sort of "sensor learning mode").

    Now the S-VCM's more useful digital innovation seems to be that once it starts seeing at the sensor a resistance low enough to indicate tendency towards overheating, say 205 degrees or something like that (?) then it overrides its resistor faking logic and let's the true (low) resistance reading through to the ECM which can then take the appropriate actions, including alerting the driver to overheating on the temperature gauge.

    So what does the driver see?

    According to this theory,
    while the engine is warming up the driver sees the actual true engine temperature on the gauge (temperature rising fast). Then when the temperature reaches the roughly 167 VCM point the driver sees the temperature gauge plateau at some lower point (similar to VCMuzzler) and that is what most drivers will see most of the time throughout their trips. Now, if the engine gets closer to the overheat temperature (whatever temperature the S-VCM's designer decided) the device will let the true temperature through to the ECM and the driver will see a sudden jump in the gauge towards the overheat range.

    Now, this is all pure speculation on my part, so sorry if it proves to be completely off basis. Perhaps those of you having/testing the device can provide actual observational data to confirm or disprove this theory.

    There could also be variations, depending on how sophisticated the S-VCM designer decided to be. So, for example, the designer could have decided on a smoother transition to overheat readings as not to stun the ECM which might then throw a sensor code, though throwing a code in an approaching overheat condition may not be that undesirable.

    The problem I see is that in order to prove or disprove one would have to experiment with engine overheating conditions which is hard and perhaps also undesirable to do.

  11. #39
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    Especially considering that, since I have been on the Odyclub since 2003, I only remember one overheating Odyssey. It was very high mileage with a plugged up radiator. In fact since 1978 I have had 8 Honda’s and barely had one even show a raised level on the guage. The guage is still going to show that the vehicle is overheating, it’s just going to show it the width of the needle lower.

  12. #40
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    Well, with the resistor the difference is one needle width but that is ONLY at normal operating temperature. I bet that in the overheat range the difference becomes ever wider with rising temperature. This is because as the temperature rises and the sensor resistance decreases (non linearly) the fixed 82ohm resistor (or whatever you are using) that is in series represents an ever bigger (additional) proportion of the sensor resistance.

    Seems like the S-VCM gets around that problem by masking true temperature (and display) only in the normal temperature range.

    Actually, I take back that it will be difficult to test the S-VCM behavior. Yes it will be difficult to test on the van, but one could just take out the S-VCM and measure the output resistance (reported to ECM) vs the input resistance (read from sensor). Then assuming that one has the resistance vs temperature graph for the Honda sensor one could reliably predict the behavior of temp displayed on the dashboard gauge vs true engine temperature.


    For that matter one could just take out the Honda temp sensor and derive that temp vs resistance relationship up to about 212F using a pot of water on the stove. Or just take the entire sensor plus S-VCM put the sensor in water, power the S-VCM with 12V, gradually heat the water with thermometer and derive both curves at once: temperature vs sensor resistance vs S-VCM reported output resistance. From that graph one could readily derive the true vs reported (i.e. seen on dashboard) temperature. To extend the graph a little above 212 one would have to use dry heat. I suspect though that at 212 and above the S-VCM reports the resistance exactly as it reads it from the sensor(?)

  13. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by se88GGnka View Post
    Well, with the resistor the difference is one needle width but that is ONLY at normal operating temperature. I bet that in the overheat range the difference becomes ever wider with rising temperature. This is because as the temperature rises and the sensor resistance decreases (non linearly) the fixed 82ohm resistor (or whatever you are using) that is in series represents an ever bigger (additional) proportion of the sensor resistance.

    Seems like the S-VCM gets around that problem by masking true temperature (and display) only in the normal temperature range.

    Actually, I take back that it will be difficult to test the S-VCM behavior. Yes it will be difficult to test on the van, but one could just take out the S-VCM and measure the output resistance (reported to ECM) vs the input resistance (read from sensor). Then assuming that one has the resistance vs temperature graph for the Honda sensor one could reliably predict the behavior of temp displayed on the dashboard gauge vs true engine temperature.


    For that matter one could just take out the Honda temp sensor and derive that temp vs resistance relationship up to about 212F using a pot of water on the stove. Or just take the entire sensor plus S-VCM put the sensor in water, power the S-VCM with 12V, gradually heat the water with thermometer and derive both curves at once: temperature vs sensor resistance vs S-VCM reported output resistance. From that graph one could readily derive the true vs reported (i.e. seen on dashboard) temperature. To extend the graph a little above 212 one would have to use dry heat. I suspect though that at 212 and above the S-VCM reports the resistance exactly as it reads it from the sensor(?)
    I think you pretty much have it figured out, but I also think you might be asking too much of the temperature gauge in the instrument cluster. There is a limit to the precision one may expect of the information gleaned from a gauge with no scale or graduations. At a normal operating temperature range, the only thing the gauge is good for is to tell you that you're at a normal operating temperature range. I doubt if the difference between 164F and 167F is clearly discernable on the gauge, even on a stock setup.

    If you really wanted to push the research envelope on this, you could use a 50/50 coolant mix instead of water on the stove; your boiling point would go up to about 223F. And the static boiling point of the coolant mix goes up by about 3F for every 1 psi of pressure in the cooling system [LINK], so if we presume about 15 psi in the average automotive cooling system, that would take us up to about 268F before a boil over happens. Got an old pressure cooker handy?

    I am guessing that you possess above-average Googling skills, but if you haven't seen the S-VCM website [LINK], they describe nearly all of what you're thinking about there. At an actual 210F, S-VCM reports <167F. By the time the actual temperature reaches 230F, S-VCM is outputting an unmodified signal. I doubt there is some kind of smoothing algorithm to make the temperature increase gradual as you approach an overheat condition - if you are about to overheat, you need to know RFN. I would expect the needle on the gauge to suddenly jump at the moment S-VCM turned itself off. Potentially throwing a code for a sudden drastic temperature increase would be a minor consideration, in my opinion, given the severity of an overheated engine.
    Last edited by CroMath; 09-26-2018 at 03:49 PM.
    2015 EX - Shear Comfort seat covers, Husky Liners floor liners, OEM cargo liner, S-VCM, Street Guardian dashcam, Lubegard Red

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  14. #42
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    Thanks for the link.

    Indeed the temperature vs resistance table on the site does not tell the whole story of what happens between 210F and 230F. But an abrupt unmasking of the real ECT and potentially a CEL may even be desirable in overheat? -- two indications of trouble rather than one. Or does the ECM throw an overheat code anyway?

    BTW, I think an even better way to disable VCM would be for someone to modify an OBD2 app to monitor for codes, making an exception specifically for the code associated with the VCM pressure sensors. Then we could just disconnect the VCM oil pressure sensors, buy a cheap $30 android phone on EBay and a cheap $10 ELM327, tape the dashboard CEL and use the phone and app as a new surrogate Check Engine Light. The app could even be programmed to say things like "Hey dude you have a new code [other than the VCM oil pressure code]".

    Then, presumably, there would be no temperature faking at all, presumably just VCM suppression.

  15. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by se88GGnka View Post
    Then we could just disconnect the VCM oil pressure sensors, buy a cheap $30 android phone on EBay and a cheap $10 ELM327, tape the dashboard CEL and use the phone and app as a new surrogate Check Engine Light.
    It would be nice if VCM suppression could be done easily through the OBDII port, but tape on the instrument panel and extra boxes all over the place? That would just junk up my pristine interior (of which I feel I am justifiably proud). As it is, S-VCM tells the PCM little white lies as long as it's safe to do so, and as soon as it isn't safe anymore, it hits you with the unvarnished truth. And it is (for all intents and purposes) virtually imperceptible - invisible from inside the van, nearly invisible under the hood, and the van drives as everyone expects that it should. I'm willing to call that good enough.
    2015 EX - Shear Comfort seat covers, Husky Liners floor liners, OEM cargo liner, S-VCM, Street Guardian dashcam, Lubegard Red

    There is no contradiction in having a soft heart and a hard mind.

  16. #44
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    Had an idea… I know dangerous.

    How about Verbatim adds a Zener diode in parallel with the resistor to partially negate the masking of the true sensor resistance above a certain temperature?

    That would allow the overheat to better come through once there is an overheat condition. The overheat condition would cause the sensor resistance to drop enough to increase the voltage across Verbatim’s resistor to “break down” the Zener (just a term used for Zener diodes , the Zener does not actually break).

    The question is then what Zener breakdown voltage to use. Definitely below 5V since that is the entire bias voltage. The designer would have to decide at what temperature the resistance masking is supposed to be curtailed and measure the sensor resistance at that point. Then based on the two resistors acting as a voltage divider the correct Zener breakdown voltage can be determined.

    More specifically, for example, say we use the blue 82ohm resistor and we want to stop the masking at 200F, and let’s say we measure the sensor resistance at 200F to be 70 ohms. Then we would get a Zener diode with a breakdown voltage of 5V*(82)/(82+70) = 2.7V

    Now when the temperature reaches above 200F the voltage across the Zener would climb above 2.7 Volts and the Zener would start conducting -- thus partially eliminating the effect of the 82ohm resistor. The temperature reported to the ECM and gauge would then rise quickly again.

    That would still not be quite as intelligent as the S-VCM since it would still report a lower temperature to the VCM, but the amount of temperature masking would be more limited (unlike the current resistor only implementation where true temperature and reported temperature keep diverging with higher temperatures), and would achieve so with passive components only (the Verbatim resistor plus just one more Zener in parallel), that is, without the need for a battery power supply.

    With this new modification you would still likely get some overheat indication even with the Resistor+Zener in line, albeit at a higher temperature than without (or with the S-VCM). As a matter of fact, an early warning that there is some overheating would be the observation (if the driver is paying attention) that VCM (and the hated ECO light) start activating. This early warning is probably already present with the resistor only, but adding the Zener would expedite that warning as well as the eventual overheat warning.

    In summary, the simple modification of adding the Zener in parallel with the Verbatim resistor would still not make the resistor approach superior to the S-VCM, but would close the gap and it’s a very CHEAP and straightforward addition that Verbatim could add WITHOUT having to resort to an active device with battery power.

    Thoughts welcome.

  17. #45
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    Interesting.

    In general, these cars are not prone to overheating, so closely monitoring coolant temp accurately is less important to me than overall reliability or minimizing impact on the engine management. That's just me, I know others think differently on this. But if you're thinking of a better design, I figured I'd let you know a different perspective on what could be improved.

    Also in general, if I were really interested in coolant temp monitoring and did not care about engine management, I would just re-calibrate the gauge with the resistor in the loop, marking up the gauge with masking tape and a sharpie with accurate temp markings. Just kidding on the sloppy details there, but the point is that if the gauge reading is a real concern, it could be addressed directly and perfectly if needed. Like maybe a mechanical (needle shift) or electrical (circuit modification at the gauge itself) mod of the gauge.

    As it is, I just know that it reads a little low, and that I don't really need to worry since these engines don't have overheating issues, mine is well maintained, and if a severe issue like a huge coolant leak were to occur, the needle would surely move enough to be visible, even through the smoke in the cabin.

    On the specific Zener design ... It should help a little, at the expense of complexity. But I think the help would be pretty small. It's not as if once the Zener breaks down the resistor is short circuited. It's still there, but the voltage drop across the resistor will be limited at the 2.7V (from your example) and not grow any higher as temp increases. Yes, this helps, but the offset will still be there. So for example, at 220*F the Zener would be limiting the voltage drop to 2.7V, vs. if it were not there, the drop might be 2.9V. Is this right?

    Since you're thinking of mods, how about choosing a diode (Zener or other) that would just replace the muzzling resistor? The resistor right now drops the voltage a little, making it look like the thermistor has higher resistance, therefore cooler. The challenge with that is that as the actual temp gets higher, the thermistor resistance drops to the point where the muzzling resistor is a more significant distorting factor. A diode in that spot would drop the effective supply voltage of the circuit in a constant way. So the nonlinearity as temp increases would not be so significant. I haven't done that analysis, since I'm happy with my resistor, but I bet if you were to use numbers for the muzzling resistor (mine is 77 Ohms, and is perfectly sized for my car) and a reasonably accurate temp-vs-resitance function for the thermistor, you'd see a less-distorted effective resistance.

    It would probably need some analysis of the circuit surrounding the sensor.

    BTW, one improvement to the resistor I've got in there now will be (planned, on the list, way down there) to wire in a toggle switch to the instrument panel. The switch will short circuit the resistor, effectively de-muzzling the muzzler. This could be used to visually "calibrate" the gauge, so I can see exactly how much the needle is off when the muzzler is on or off. By switching the resistor in-out of the circuit at different temps, I'd be able to learn what the needle offset looks like. Also, if I were ever concerned about overheating (towing a boat up a mountain in Death Valley, for example) I could just disable the resistor and get a pure reading. I know a switch would add unreliability to the system, but if it were to fail, the resistor would still be there, unaffected and still muzzling.

    EDIT - and really, on that boat towing example, if I were ever actually doing anything that concerned me about the engine overheating I would be at least 10x more concerned with the transmission in that scenario ... which means I would not care about the engine coolant temp very much.
    Last edited by oldskewel; 09-29-2018 at 02:05 PM.
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