The facts : child seat anchors in 2005 Ody

Blueprint · Oct 6, 2004

After viewing the '05 last evening, here is the sad truth about child seat anchors in the 3rd-gen :

The 3rd row only has ONE child seat anchor;
The optional threaded locations for outboard 3rd row are GONE;
The top tether anchor is STILL LOCATED BELOW THE HATCH;
Middle 2nd row seat can't accept child seats.

Just to be sure, I checked the owner's manual, and a sales rep fresh from "Ody 101" also confirmed my findings.

So, the 3rd row is strictly restricted to one toddler, and the strap will still cross the trunk right in the middle. Same setup as Mazda MPV.

Bad, bad design.

With the optional anchors, the '99-04 could carry up to 5 toddlers. It was the child-seat champ. The Sienna now holds that title.

shellebelle · Oct 6, 2004

When you say the middle seat in the second row can't accept seats, is it too narrow or is it specifically prohibited in the manual?

If it's a no no in the manual, Honda is going to lose some major sales to Toyota.

Blueprint · Oct 6, 2004

It's as wide as an armrest (which it is), and no child seat anchors are provided (I have not checked to see if there's shoulder belt in the middle...I would guess not).

So, too narrow, and no anchors. The 8-pass. Sienna feels a foot wider by comparison.

My opinion on this "plus one" seat : a totally useless device that will use up garage space.

shellebelle · Oct 6, 2004

Blueprint said:
It's as wide as an armrest (which it is), and no child seat anchors are provided (I have not checked to see if there's shoulder belt in the middle...I would guess not).

So, too narrow, and no anchors. The 8-pass. Sienna feels a foot wider by comparison.

My opinion on this "plus one" seat : a totally useless device that will use up garage space.

There's a seatbelt assembly that comes down from the celing a la Pilot. Shoulder belt and all. The LATCH anchors aren't required for child seat installation, and the seat, as you mention is way too narrow for their required spacing.

I'm really disappointed in the new offering. I forwarded the image of the PlusOne seat to some fellow child passenger safety technicians and asked what they thought about it. They all thought it'd be very difficult to install a seat there.

shellebelle · Oct 6, 2004

Oh duh...you're referring to the top tether anchors. Yeah, if there aren't provisions for those that's a significant problem.

provench · Oct 7, 2004

shellebelle said:
Oh duh...you're referring to the top tether anchors. Yeah, if there aren't provisions for those that's a significant problem.

I just got same response from my Honda sales and service rep. There is only one tether for the third row and unlike the previous generation, you can NOT even add the 2nd and 3rd!

Way to blow it BIG time Honda

Amylucinda · Oct 13, 2004

I called Honda

I called Honda Customer Service yesterday to confirm that it was delivered with only one in the rear, and there was no option to add any more. The rep confirmed that. I then nicely, but firmly, explained that that made absolutely no sense. I explained that my son's Britax Super Elite (and I'm sure the Husky) doesn't fit in the middle rear seatbelt of the 2nd generation Odys, so that would mean he'd either have to go without an anchor on the sides or switch to a different carseat to fit in the middle. And boy, I sure wouldn't want to be the person sitting next to a SuperElite/Husky in the middle back, even presuming the '05s have a long-enough seatbelt to fit.

I asked if I could leave my name and contact information, to back up my expressions of concern (at their lunacy...didn't say that part, but sure wanted to!) I also told him that I had 2 folks in line to buy Odys, but unfortunately, now had to make it clear to them that Odys may not be the best choice for flexibility and safe placement of children in carseats, and that they should seriously look at Siennas.

You know, if they had redesigned things to not cross the hatch, I guess I wouldn't be so flummoxed, but since they didn't do anything but REMOVE parts of the poor system that were already there, I'm in shock. How do you go from 5 tether anchors to 3 and think that makes sense?

(Step...) Down off soapbox now.......

Anyway, it can't hurt for folks to give them a ring, and express any concerns felt about lack of and placement of anchors.

rlpenny · Oct 13, 2004

Re: I called Honda

Amylucinda said:
...I'm in shock. How do you go from 5 tether anchors to 3 and think that makes sense?...

I'm in shock too--they went from 3 key cylinders to just 1. Try to use your key to get in the passenger door or tailgate. Don't tell me to use the key fob.

On the car seat deal...I've never seen how 3 car seats could ever fit side by side in our '02. The car seats are too wide. If I were transporting five babies to small toddlers every day I'd consider a microbus or use what I use sometimes in the other car--a theatre booster seat with the regular seat belts.

Don't tell me I'm a bad parent for using a theatre booster seat at times for my 5 year old on short trips to the store.

shellebelle · Oct 13, 2004

Re: Re: I called Honda

rlpenny said:
Don't tell me I'm a bad parent for using a theatre booster seat at times for my 5 year old on short trips to the store.

I'm not going to tell you that you're a bad parent, but I'm going to ask how the belt could even come close to properly fitting across your daugher's lap when the theater booster seat has side lips that'll hold it away from her.

provench · Oct 13, 2004

Re: Re: I called Honda

rlpenny said:
On the car seat deal...I've never seen how 3 car seats could ever fit side by side in our '02.

Well ... you don't need to go that far. What if I want 2 kids in 3rd row and 1 in 2nd row? That was the other 2nd row seat can use the new flip forward function for VERY easy access to the back.

I am going to call Honda and log a "complaint". I am very much hoping for a kit to be produced post-launch ... this is goofy Honda

CPSDarren · Oct 16, 2004

Re: Re: I called Honda

rlpenny said:
Don't tell me I'm a bad parent for using a theatre booster seat at times for my 5 year old on short trips to the store.

It sounds like you may already be educated enough to judge if you are a "bad parent" in this regard. It's true that boosters are not much more in principle than a glorified phone book. Even so, there are a few key featues that don't come standard in phone books.

Boosters have a lap belt routing guide that allows a short pathway to keep the lap belt snug on the strong bones of the upper thighs or lower hips. They also have "arms" that keep the booster secured by the lapbelt. Without the arm, the booster could slide forward in a crash, allowing the child to slip down, sumbarine forward and be susceptible to serious "Seatbelt Syndrome" abdominal injuries.

Good boosters also have a shoulder belt adjustment system of some type. This adjusts the height of the shoulder belt to keep it across the center of the shoulder and the center of the chest. If the shoulder belt rides on the neck, it is uncomfortable and the child will often defeat it by putting it behind their arm or back. If the shoulder belt is on the arm, it probably won't provide much upper body restraint in a crash. If the shoulder belt is does not fit comfortably across the strong bones of the shoulder and chest, your child will be at great risk for both the same horrible abdominal injuries plus head injuries, too. In some vehicles, these aren't needed if the shoulder belt fits the passenger correctly without the booster's guide. Newer vehicles have adjustable shoulder belts or clips that may take the place of this feature on boosters.

Finally, boosters give enough rise that they allow the child's legs to bend somewhat at the knees. That tends to keep them from slouching. Much like a loose lap belt, slouching also tends to cause submarining under the lap belt.

If whatever you are using provides all these benefits, than it may well protect them adequately in a crash and you no longer have to worry about other people calling you a bad parent. If it is a product designed for this purpose, it has also been crash tested for performance. If you are not sure if your alternative provides these benefits and your child is injured in a crash, then you and your family can decide if it was a good parental decision or not.

adam1991 · Oct 16, 2004

Re: Re: I called Honda

rlpenny said:
Don't tell me I'm a bad parent for using a theatre booster seat at times for my 5 year old on short trips to the store.

Most accidents occur close to home.

I other words, a "short trip" is just as likely to involve an accident as a long trip is.

gordonjones · Dec 7, 2004

3 seats, 2nd row

we knew when we began our search for minivan that we would, on occasion, need to have our 3 kids sit in the second row (one toddler and infant twins). this would be required to carry cargo and/or big dogs in the back.

although toyota offers the 8 passenger sienna, they limit a lot of the bells and whistles for that model (no leather, etc). we test drove it and weren't nuts about the handling. to top it off, that model seems pretty hard to find and even harder to get a deal on.

so we brought our kid seats to the honda dealership and tested them in all the configurations we could think of (2 rear/1 middle, vice versa). we even tried putting the twins rear facing seats in the 2nd row outside chairs (w/ LATCH) and the fwd facing toddler seat in the PLusOne seat, using the seat belt. the seats all fit, with room to spare between them and the doors, etc. they all seemed secure. the PlusOne appears to be a bit raised above the other seats which helped it fit in between.

i'm doubt this arrangement would work for 3 fwd facing seats, but i figured i'd pass along my experiences. i'm happy to listen to anyone that can tell me why the "3 kids, 2nd row" arrangment is unsafe. obviously i don't want to endanger my kids.

CPSDarren · Dec 7, 2004

Re: 3 seats, 2nd row

gordonjones said:
although toyota offers the 8 passenger sienna, they limit a lot of the bells and whistles for that model (no leather, etc). we test drove it and weren't nuts about the handling. to top it off, that model seems pretty hard to find and even harder to get a deal on.

If the seating configuration works for someone in the Toyota, and safety is their top concern, that might outweigh these other factors.

i'm doubt this arrangement would work for 3 fwd facing seats, but i figured i'd pass along my experiences. i'm happy to listen to anyone that can tell me why the "3 kids, 2nd row" arrangment is unsafe. obviously i don't want to endanger my kids.

Obviously, no one could tell you with 100% certainty. Anyone who tries this will essentially be using their own kids as crash dummies. They would be the ones able to provide some minimal anecdotal data, though only after a crash...

This assumes, of course, that they could install 3 kids and their child restraints "correctly," despite the fact that neither manufacturer would approve such an arrangement.

gordonjones · Dec 8, 2004

quote:
If the seating configuration works for someone in the Toyota, and safety is their top concern, that might outweigh these other factors.

agreed. i just don't understand why toryota would limit the 8 passenger sienna to the CE & LE package. if one were able to get more bells and whistles, it might sway more people to buy. i'm sure there's some logic to the decision, i just don't see it.

as for seating 3 kids in a vehicle (minivan) i'm curious what would, in theory, be the very safest configuration. two in the 2nd row captains chairs and one in the middle 3rd row? this would allow all to be in the LATCH enabled seats... assuming the LATCH system = safest. just a guess.

shellebelle · Dec 8, 2004

gordonjones said:
quote:
as for seating 3 kids in a vehicle (minivan) i'm curious what would, in theory, be the very safest configuration. two in the 2nd row captains chairs and one in the middle 3rd row? this would allow all to be in the LATCH enabled seats... assuming the LATCH system = safest. just a guess.

LATCH isn't always safer, it's just easier. An excellent installation using a seatbelt is much safer than a not so great installation with LATCH. However, one needs to consider where the top tether anchors are.

Generally you want to put the most protected child in the least protected spot. Since rear facing is safest, a rear facing child would go in the driver's side captain's chair. The next safest is forward facing children still in harnessed car seats (I'd put them in the passenger side captain's chair), then kids in boosters (third row outboard passenger side), and then passengers who are large enough to wear just a seat belt (wherever there's room left). Of course this scematic is very dependent on the children, car seats, parents' willingness to properly use car seats in said position, seat belts, tether anchors, how tight the car seat installs, etc. :stupid:

Does that help answer your question? It's a lot to think about, I know

Michelle

CPSDarren · Dec 8, 2004

As Michelle said, LATCH is only safer if it results in a better fit than a seatbelt. The main advantage of LATCH is that it is often easier to get a secure installation.

The middle seats are farthest from a side impact. Ideally, you'd have one child in the middle of the second row, one child in the middle of the third row and one in an outboard position of the second row. That assumes all the seats could be installed correctly in those positions. Really, nearly any configuration in back is relatively safe provided that child restraints are installed and used correctly.

Blueprint · Dec 8, 2004

The middle 2nd row seat in the Sienna is designed for child seats, at least that's my conclusion from the early ads when the van was launched. That seat can be moved forward, easing triple seat installations.

The '05 Ody's middle seat is a glorified armrest. If there isn't a top tether anchor there, then don't use it with a child seat. Ditto if Honda doesn't recommend it.

If 3 child seats must be installed in the 2nd row, I would classify this as a "need" based on child safety. Leather, bells and whistles are "wants".

It's all a matter of tastes, but trust me, I drove the Sienna at triple digit speeds and it holds its own quite well under these circumstances. The compromise is subtle, and the van is enjoyable, if perhaps a bit less sporty than the Ody. It's not like, say, a Venture.

I "wanted" a sports sedan, my wife "wanted" a cute-ute, but with 3 kids, we "needed" 2 minivans and that's what we own.

Then again, use only official anchors, one per seat. MPV's are very popular in Quebec, and I cringe every time I see parents at the daycare with two toddler seats in the back, anchored to plastic cargo hooks...people just don't get it. Also, some people tend to anchor 2 seats to a single 3rd row top anchor, and that's also a no-no.

More horror stories to follow : GM minivans are very popular in Canada, and from what I've seen so far, the '05s don't have ANY top tether anchor in the 3rd row.

provench · Dec 8, 2004

So yesterday I finally got around to calling Honda customer service to file a "complaint" about not having 2 LATCH (at least top tethers) in the 3rd row seat. I have twin 19 month olds and a baby due in April. The plan would have the new baby in one of the captain's chairs, but would prefer to have both of the then 2 year olds in the 3rd row together mostly to entertain each other

... however ... this will NOT be done at the expense of safety.

What is there now is a single LATCH setup in the 3rd row. What we had with our last Ody was 2 LATCH setups on right/left in the 3rd row. I guess I am looking for at minimum an explanation of why is the 05 more restrictive and at most is Honda going to do something to address being able to have to tethered car seats in the 3rd row.

Figured if I didn't log a formal complaint then I will never know. Maybe if some of you feel the same and do the same Honda will engineer something. To me this is a big miss by Honda.

shellebelle · Dec 8, 2004

provench said:
To me this is a big miss by Honda.

I completely agree.

The facts : child seat anchors in 2005 Ody

Blueprint

shellebelle

Blueprint

shellebelle

shellebelle

provench

Amylucinda

rlpenny

shellebelle

provench

CPSDarren

adam1991

gordonjones

CPSDarren

gordonjones

shellebelle

CPSDarren

Blueprint

provench

shellebelle

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