Is there easy way to check timing belt condition?

thscott · Sep 20, 2016

Back to the OP, if you have your dealership do the timing belt job for $850, which I think is a fair price, make sure they include replacement of the water pump. I've heard some Honda dealers will not replace the water pump as part of a normal timing belt job.

When to replace the timing belt is all about "risk mitigation" (yes, I am a NASA rocket scientist!) - likelihood vs. consequence. At your timing belt age and mileage, the likelihood is "medium" but the consequence (major engine damage) is "high". Get r done; you'll sleep better at night knowing you reduced the risk of a major engine failure and you will be good to go for another 100,000 miles.

John Clark · Sep 20, 2016

thscott said:
Back to the OP, if you have your dealership do the timing belt job for $850, which I think is a fair price, make sure they include replacement of the water pump. I've heard some Honda dealers will not replace the water pump as part of a normal timing belt job...

Yeah, and I kind of understand too. I've replaced a few of them and never seen one even the slightest bit worn. Has anyone here ever seen a leaky, noisy, or failed water pump on a J35? The last one I replaced had 150K+ on it and it wasn't leaking and felt nice and smooth. I'd say you could easily keep these OEM water pumps until the second 210K timing belt change. The only flaw in that logic is the cost isn't in the water pump and water pump labor. The cost is such a small percentage more that it just doesn't make sense NOT to do it, especially if you're doing your own work. Unless you plan on getting rid of the car in the short term I just replace EVERYTHING under the cover, regardless of its observed condition.

Karl05 · Sep 20, 2016

John Clark said:
I'm assuming the timing belt on his original engine was changed at 105K and the MM reset, meaning it will come on again at 210K. However, at 150K the engine was replaced and a new timing belt put on the replacement engine. That timing belt should go 105K until needing to be replaced. That would occur at 250K on the odometer. His MM is going to tell him to change the timing belt at 210K...nearly 40K early.

John's got it. Had my first done around 105K (as per maint minder). 150K, engine replaced and the shop did all new timing belt change (I requested it but they also said they do it).

maxud · Sep 20, 2016

John Clark said:
Yeah, and I kind of understand too. I've replaced a few of them and never seen one even the slightest bit worn. Has anyone here ever seen a leaky, noisy, or failed water pump on a J35? The last one I replaced had 150K+ on it and it wasn't leaking and felt nice and smooth. I'd say you could easily keep these OEM water pumps until the second 210K timing belt change. The only flaw in that logic is the cost isn't in the water pump and water pump labor. The cost is such a small percentage more that it just doesn't make sense NOT to do it, especially if you're doing your own work. Unless you plan on getting rid of the car in the short term I just replace EVERYTHING under the cover, regardless of its observed condition.

John, I lost count how many J35 timing belts jobs I did, but you are right. Most water pumps came out pretty good looking. I did see one on my last or one before last that looked like coolant was weeping out of it through the bearing hole. It has not failed and amount of stain was minimal.
The all metal construction water pump that is used in J35 is pretty stout, nothing like the VW/BMW plastic junk.
I am certainly able to appreciate both sides of the argument. On one hand the dealer will not replace water pump that is not leaking, and presumably save the customer hundreds
of dollars. On the other hand, if it goes before the next timing belt job, they (the dealer) will reap the benefit of doubling income from the timing belt job, since water pump is nothing but 5 or 6 bolts away when you take everything out for timing belt job on a J35. Dealer is in business of making money for shareholders.
On the other hand, the story about the water pump goes, like this. If you have a timing belt, might as well replace water pump because you are already there. Nobody says,
if you are working on VW 2.0L engine do this and on Honda J35 you do that. So things that apply to one engine, may not universally apply to every other engine out there.
Will I still replace water pump on every J35 timing belt job? Hell yeah. Because I never want to explain to the customer that the $100 they saved a year ago is going to cost them another timing belt job.

To OP, I wish you luck and pass on free tip.
If you don't like the price the dealer is charging you, seek out independent shop.
If you don't like the price the independent shop is charging you, learn to wrench.
It is a very liberating experience.
Beyond that, the topic has been exhausted.

tkrotchko · Sep 20, 2016

maxud said:
nothing like the VW/BMW plastic junk..

Let me give an alternative viewpoint on this, having replaced at least 4 BMW water pumps over the past few years.

Yes, the plastic impeller (technically not plastic, but let's not quibble) is a bad idea, and couldn't have save much money or weight. But even when I've replaced these impellers with metal blade from german suppliers, it's the bearings that go, they weep, and they begin to lose coolant well before they have any right to fail.

But to be fair to the water pump, every part of a BMW cooling system is poorly designed; from frequent water pump failures, to replacing radiators (just because they randomly start leaking after about 150K) to the use of a bolt system on the fans which requires a special tool, to the expansion tank system designed by satan himself...you learn to hate them.

My favorite was on a 740 where there is a rubber heater hose that goes in the valley of a V8 that requires removal of the fuel injection system to replace. Imagine what that costs if you take it to a dealer to replace that $40 heater hose. And the straight 6's weren't a lot better. I can only imagine what the turbo engines would be like...

John Clark · Sep 20, 2016

maxud said:
...If you don't like the price the independent shop is charging you, learn to wrench...

BEST ADVICE EVER!!!! I feel so much more financially stable knowing I'm not going to get hit with a $3000 bill for a new engine or transmission and not know if I'm doing the right thing by paying it. Even the "small" bills for something like an alternator or starter change make my heart skip a beat when I see how much it is to have it done. I absolutely LOVE doing my own work. Even if I could afford to have someone else do it I'd probably still do it all myself.

davedrivesody · Sep 22, 2016

tkrotchko said:
Sure, which is why I said an engineering decision about replacing parts is made by understanding expected failure rates and making a statistical decision on when to replace it.

No one short of the almighty can tell you when a specific part will fail. But I do trust statistical models that the service intervals are based on.

Believe me, I strongly believe in using science to make management decisions.

However, we don't know if the 115K miles/7 years timing belt service life came from engineers or marketing gurus.

Case in point: The instructions printed on the bag of cement from a well-known maker says to keep the fresh concrete covered and moist for 3 days. The engineers from the same company had recommended 28 days. Marketing overruled saying that customers would not buy the cement if they had to keep it covered for 28 days, but 3 days would be doable. That's a true story.

Dave

tkrotchko · Sep 22, 2016

Sure, and I would believe marketing and warranty accountants have a big say in what the oil change interval is. That's tangible for customer, it affects how they perceive the car. For example, BMW when they introduced the "free maintenance for 50K miles" magically the oil change interval went from 7,500 miles to 15,000 miles. Magic, I tell you.

But the timing belt interval is so long that nobody is buying (or not buying) a car because of timing belt interval is 110K miles instead of 150K miles.

My point is that for the most part, just do what the manual says when it comes to things like timing belts or spark plug changes.

Hogan773 · Sep 22, 2016

davedrivesody said:
Believe me, I strongly believe in using science to make management decisions.

However, we don't know if the 115K miles/7 years timing belt service life came from engineers or marketing gurus.

Case in point: The instructions printed on the bag of cement from a well-known maker says to keep the fresh concrete covered and moist for 3 days. The engineers from the same company had recommended 28 days. Marketing overruled saying that customers would not buy the cement if they had to keep it covered for 28 days, but 3 days would be doable. That's a true story.

Dave

tkrotchko said:
Sure, and I would believe marketing and warranty accountants have a big say in what the oil change interval is. That's tangible for customer, it affects how they perceive the car. For example, BMW when they introduced the "free maintenance for 50K miles" magically the oil change interval went from 7,500 miles to 15,000 miles. Magic, I tell you.

But the timing belt interval is so long that nobody is buying (or not buying) a car because of timing belt interval is 110K miles instead of 150K miles.

My point is that for the most part, just do what the manual says when it comes to things like timing belts or spark plug changes.

Just like BMW ATF was "lifetime fluid" at least when I owned a BMW back in the early 2000s. Nobody exactly knew what "lifetime" meant. Maybe most BMW buyers were trading their cars in after 3 years anyway.

Too bad Honda engineers don't just use a timing CHAIN and then we could not even worry about it

John Clark · Sep 22, 2016

Hogan773 said:
Just like BMW ATF was "lifetime fluid" at least when I owned a BMW back in the early 2000s. Nobody exactly knew what "lifetime" meant. Maybe most BMW buyers were trading their cars in after 3 years anyway.

Too bad Honda engineers don't just use a timing CHAIN and then we could not even worry about it

Timing chains have their issues too. Guides and tensioners wear and the chain wears and stretches. That's not even getting into their noise. I'm not saying a chain is bad but they're not without their inherent problems. My Nissan 1.6L engine in my Nissan 200SX has a chain. It's only got 130K on it and it's noisy on the first start of the day and I've already replaced the upper chain guide/tensioner due to severe wear. I'm sure there's wear on the lower that I will need to take care of soon.

maxud · Sep 22, 2016

Hogan773 said:
Just like BMW ATF was "lifetime fluid" at least when I owned a BMW back in the early 2000s. Nobody exactly knew what "lifetime" meant. Maybe most BMW buyers were trading their cars in after 3 years anyway.

Too bad Honda engineers don't just use a timing CHAIN and then we could not even worry about it

its arguable at best whether timing chain is preferable to timing belt. Timing chains stretch. Manufacturer's use plastic tensioner guides on them, which break.
Typically, replacing timing chain is a much bigger job than timing belt. Neither of them lasts forever, but I can see where perception would be skewed toward preference to timing chain, since its not a maintenance item, and you don't need to worry about replacing it as part of maintenance.

I recently replaced BMW transmission fluid on such BMW. The pan had a sticker saying dont replace the fluid. Naturally fluid had no hint of red color in it.

Hogan773 · Sep 22, 2016

maxud said:
its arguable at best whether timing chain is preferable to timing belt. Timing chains stretch. Manufacturer's use plastic tensioner guides on them, which break.
Typically, replacing timing chain is a much bigger job than timing belt. Neither of them lasts forever, but I can see where perception would be skewed toward preference to timing chain, since its not a maintenance item, and you don't need to worry about replacing it as part of maintenance.

I recently replaced BMW transmission fluid on such BMW. The pan had a sticker saying dont replace the fluid. Naturally fluid had no hint of red color in it.

Interesting re: timing chains but I guess that makes sense....no free lunch

I never got around to replacing the ATF on my BMW before I sold it and bought another Honda. But boy did it seem like it was going to be a royal b^tch to do that job (getting the car up on 4 stands, crawling underneath and undoing 200 different torx bolts, dropping the pan and probably spilling hot ATF all over myself and the ground, then using a fluid pump to pump new ATF up there while the car is on and the trans is in gear). Makes the drain and fill ability of the Honda seem golden!

John Clark · Sep 22, 2016

Hogan773 said:
Interesting re: timing chains but I guess that makes sense....no free lunch

I never got around to replacing the ATF on my BMW before I sold it and bought another Honda. But boy did it seem like it was going to be a royal b^tch to do that job (getting the car up on 4 stands, crawling underneath and undoing 200 different torx bolts, dropping the pan and probably spilling hot ATF all over myself and the ground, then using a fluid pump to pump new ATF up there while the car is on and the trans is in gear). Makes the drain and fill ability of the Honda seem golden!

Yup, the Honda is a pretty good deal for ATF change. On my GMC pickup with a 4L60E trans I actually have a drain plug but most 4L60E's don't. Without a drain plug you have to remove the front drive shaft, either bend the shift cable out of the way or remove it, and pull the pan in order to change the fluid. That's the way most automatic transmissions are. The fact that it's as easy as it is on the Ody is a real bonus.

I'm OK with the timing belt just for the ease of change and how quiet they are.

Hogan773 · Sep 22, 2016

John Clark said:
Yup, the Honda is a pretty good deal for ATF change. On my GMC pickup with a 4L60E trans I actually have a drain plug but most 4L60E's don't. Without a drain plug you have to remove the front drive shaft, either bend the shift cable out of the way or remove it, and pull the pan in order to change the fluid. That's the way most automatic transmissions are. The fact that it's as easy as it is on the Ody is a real bonus.

I'm OK with the timing belt just for the ease of change and how quiet they are.

I have a 2010 with 58K miles, so I guess I have at least until next year before I need to start thinking about that "is it age or is it mileage and how likely am I to bust the belt etc" conversation with myself

By then I will have seen the new Odyssey so might have a better sense of whether I could imagine myself owning my 2010 for another 5-7 years or not. Right now I have been the only owner and I've kept it well maintained, and it is in fairly clean condition for a family hauler, so no real need to pony up 35-40K for a new family hauler

DerbyDad03 · Sep 22, 2016

maxud said:
its arguable at best whether timing chain is preferable to timing belt. Timing chains stretch. Manufacturer's use plastic tensioner guides on them, which break.
Typically, replacing timing chain is a much bigger job than timing belt. Neither of them lasts forever, but I can see where perception would be skewed toward preference to timing chain, since its not a maintenance item, and you don't need to worry about replacing it as part of maintenance.

OK, so 'splain me something. We all (well, most) know that if the timing belt broke on one of our Ody engines we'd be in a world of hurt. Therefore the timing belt is a maintenance item.

If the belt were replaced with a chain, along with it's associated tensioners, etc. - which you say do indeed break - why would the chain and/or it's associated parts not be a maintenance item?

Wouldn't our engines still be in a world of hurt if something happened within the timing chain system. Is it that we would have a warning (that anyone could notice) before things got really bad or is it that a failure is so rare that, oh, hell, let's just not consider it an issue for most owners? Third option: You can't replace a belt with a chain without also eliminating the danger posed by a broken belt, i.e. a chained engine doesn't even resemble a belted engine in that respect?

Just trying to learn...

John Clark · Sep 22, 2016

The reason our engines are in a world of hurt has nothing to do with the chain or belt. It's just the valve clearance issue. So, you're correct. Replacing it with a chain would still leave the engine at risk if the chain breaks. Using a chain requires a much more complicated timing cover design in order to have oil circulate inside it. Chains don't break that often but they do wear and can cause timing issues due to worn chain and sprockets. At least with a belt, all the wear is limited to the belt and not the sprockets. While having a timing belt is a hassle when it comes time to have it changed I think it's a simpler system with less to actually go wrong--fewer oil leaks, for sure.

DerbyDad03 · Sep 22, 2016

John Clark said:
The reason our engines are in a world of hurt has nothing to do with the chain or belt. It's just the valve clearance issue. So, you're correct. Replacing it with a chain would still leave the engine at risk if the chain breaks. Using a chain requires a much more complicated timing cover design in order to have oil circulate inside it. Chains don't break that often but they do wear and can cause timing issues due to worn chain and sprockets. At least with a belt, all the wear is limited to the belt and not the sprockets. While having a timing belt is a hassle when it comes time to have it changed I think it's a simpler system with less to actually go wrong--fewer oil leaks, for sure.

That's what I thought (knew) - the whole interference engine issue. So while your answer is, as always, interesting and informative, it doesn't explain why a timing chain (and/or it's associated parts) would not be a maintenance item.

If it (or it's associated parts) has a life-expectancy, even if it's 200K or more, why isn't it a maintenance item at whatever its life-expectancy is minus a few?

Is it that there will be indications of an impending failure before the failure that would take out the engine, such as a poorly running engine or so much noise that no one would want to drive it or something similar?

My point is that if there is a part or parts that have a known life-expectancy and that can take out an engine if they fail, why wouldn't they be considered a maintenance item?

maxud · Sep 22, 2016

DerbyDad03 said:
That's what I thought (knew) - the whole interference engine issue. So while your answer is, as always, interesting and informative, it doesn't explain why a timing chain (and/or it's associated parts) would not be a maintenance item.

If it (or it's associated parts) has a life-expectancy, even if it's 200K or more, why isn't it a maintenance item at whatever its life-expectancy is minus a few?

Is it that there will be indications of an impending failure before the failure that would take out the engine, such as a poorly running engine or so much noise that no one would want to drive it or something similar?

My point is that if there is a part or parts that have a known life-expectancy and that can take out an engine if they fail, why wouldn't they be considered a maintenance item?

Obviously, I can't answer it as an engineer behind one of these engines would. I think this falls into category of "Lifetime" components, just like lifetime atf, coolant, etc....
Since the chain itself is metal, its much much much less likely to break than timing belt. That said, if it stretches, it is likely to show up as a malfunction on the car, before the
engine grenades itself.
Anyway, every component of car wears out with time. Just like replacing a tranny is not a maintenance item, chain will typically last the life of the typical car typically

I was recently watching a video by ETCG, where he replaced a chain on Nissan something. Holly crap, that was a big job.
I don't know what that job costs at the shop, but dare I say, that in vast number of cases, the amount spent on this repair could approach the value of the car if done around
150-200k miles. It could be cheaper to swap in a new engine.

maxud · Sep 22, 2016

Hogan773 said:
Interesting re: timing chains but I guess that makes sense....no free lunch

I never got around to replacing the ATF on my BMW before I sold it and bought another Honda. But boy did it seem like it was going to be a royal b^tch to do that job (getting the car up on 4 stands, crawling underneath and undoing 200 different torx bolts, dropping the pan and probably spilling hot ATF all over myself and the ground, then using a fluid pump to pump new ATF up there while the car is on and the trans is in gear). Makes the drain and fill ability of the Honda seem golden!

I solved that problem by getting a lift and made my own air driven fluid pump. But I have done the job before without the lift on jackstands as well. Not nearly as exciting :-(

DerbyDad03 · Sep 22, 2016

maxud said:
Obviously, I can't answer it as an engineer behind one of these engines would. I think this falls into category of "Lifetime" components, just like lifetime atf, coolant, etc....
Since the chain itself is metal, its much much much less likely to break than timing belt. That said, if it stretches, it is likely to show up as a malfunction on the car, before the
engine grenades itself.
Anyway, every component of car wears out with time. Just like replacing a tranny is not a maintenance item, chain will typically last the life of the typical car typically
I was recently watching a video by ETCG, where he replaced a chain on Nissan something. Holly crap, that was a big job.
I don't know what that job costs at the shop, but dare I say, that in vast number of cases, the amount spent on this repair could approach the value of the car if done around
150-200k miles. It could be cheaper to swap in a new engine.

I agree with almost everything you've said, including the typically typical situation. ;-)

The one part I gently push back on is this:

Just like replacing a tranny is not a maintenance item

The difference I see here is that a failed transmission typically won't take out the engine.

However, your final statement probably settles the discussion:

the amount spent on this repair could approach the value of the car if done around 150-200k miles.

Thanks!

Is there easy way to check timing belt condition?

thscott

John Clark

Karl05

maxud

tkrotchko

John Clark

davedrivesody

tkrotchko

Hogan773

John Clark

maxud

Hogan773

John Clark

Hogan773

DerbyDad03

John Clark

DerbyDad03

maxud

maxud

DerbyDad03

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