Honda Odyssey Forum banner
Cancel
Create thread New Garage Forums

Alignment - Total Toe is Negative - Front Wheels - What to do?

1 reading
Jump to Latest
1 - 17 of 17 Posts

BTRowan

· Registered
Joined
·
443 Posts
Discussion starter · #1 ·
2003 Odyssey EX; 185,000 miles.

I had an alignment check done at the dealer (in the vehicle check-in area). New tires; aired up equally. My front Total Toe is -0.16 degrees. My front camber readings are OK. My rear readings are OK. The van pulls to the left... not strongly, but it's noticeable.

My assumption is that I have two choices for what to do: (1) adjust the left-front slightly to the right, (2) adjust the right-front slightly to the right.

Without me knowing more information, is it impossible for me to determine which adjustment to make? Or, will either adjustment work?

Thanks
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#2 ·
Toe in doesn't cause pulling. Toe in will cause tire wear but will cause it evenly on each side and the steering wheel may or may not be straight. Something else is causing the pulling. Could be camber or caster, or even a bad tire, but it's not caused by the toe setting up front.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
Discussion starter · #3 ·
John Clark, thanks. One question: Does the fact that my front Total Toe is a negative value mean that my front tires are toed in?
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#4 ·
Negative toe means toe out. So, your wheels are toed out just a bit but -0.16 is actually still within spec but on the max toed out spec. To check each side's toe you have to center the steering wheel and then set each side. If you dont' take into account the steering wheel being perfectly centered then total toe is really all that matters.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#5 ·
Agree with the above.

How are your rear cross-camber and toe numbers? Front cross-camber? (difference between left and right front)

There is an adjustment in the rear for toe, which also affects rear camber slightly.

Also, if your front cross-camber is out of spec, the front camber is adjustable by replacing strut-to-knuckle bolts with thinner versions, allowing some play before tightening down.
 
#6 ·
They make special bolts that will make your front camber adjustable. You can also buy replacement upper adjustable control arms for the rear that will make the rear camber adjustable. I have both added on my van.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#7 ·
Total toe being negative means that the wheels are toed out relative to each other. You want... rather NEED this to be zero. It tells you nothing about the relationship of the wheels to the car steering straight. It just means your front wheels are trying to drive away from each other LOL

and since they can't, your tires suffer the consequences and to a lesser extent your fuel economy. Spend the $60 bucks and have someone competent align the car.

Think about it this way... your front wheels could literally be sideways, as long as they are equally sideways, your total toe will be 0. That's why total toe doesn't tell you anything aside from the wheels aren't parallel. So either of your front wheels could be out just a bit... or both could be out 1/2 of a bit... or any fraction inbetween none and 'a bit'.

Furthermore, and people don't often think about this, but camber does affect toe. The extent to which it affects toe will depend on the distance between the center of the wheel and the tie rod attachment point. This is because the tie rod balljoint becomes a fixed point in space, and so is the lower ball joint. Camber adjustment is done at another point that depends on the suspension layout (this gen ody is where the shock attaches to the steering knuckle), so you are holding 'constant' two points in space and moving a third... that means the center line of the wheel can not physically remain a fixed distance from either of the other two points you are holding 'constant'.

Moving the tie rod (adjusting toe) has the least effect (or rather negligible effect) on the other two readings (caster and camber). This is because the axis affected are in line with the center of the wheel... namely the lower ball joint and the strut rod form the pivoting axis through which the center of the wheel intersects.

Bottom line, get someone to do an alignment. I think it's really important and I only trust one place in town to touch my cars, they have proven over and over that their techs actually understand suspension geometry and aren't just following prompts from a computer screen. Hopefully you can find a place like that around you.
 
#8 ·
I've done my own alignments with string and jackstands and have had great results. Caster cannot be adjusted on the Ody so unless your vehicle has worn out control arm bushing there's nothing you can do to affect caster. Camber can be sort of "adjusted" by loosening the knuckle to strut bolts and moving the knuckle a little bit. You can't move it much though, and likely not enough to make much difference. So, with a stock set up you simply adjust toe and run with it.

If you want to be able to adjust camber you simply add these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CB3QUI

For the rear you add these:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0015H3QUS

Once you add these you adjust camber first, then toe second.

Total toe while the vehicle is sitting stationary doesn't HAVE to be absolutely zero. In fact, a slight amount of negative toe (toe out) on a front wheel driver car is often preferable due to the pull inward caused by the front wheels accelerating and pulling them inward. It will depend on the car, the stiffness of springs, etc. Again, the -0.16 is in spec but right at the max of spec according to the service manual and I'd probably shoot for a little better than that

Here's a great article on the settings, and how they affect vehicle pull.

Tires 101 on Vehicle Pull, Alignment, and Uneven Wear :: Souza's Tire Service
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#9 ·
I have to respectfully disagree on the desire for total toe to be toed out; yes really hard launching vehicles with stock style compliance bushings will dynamically toe in toward zero if you start them out slightly negative. But on a minivan where most of the miles are driving straight and at steady speeds, I'd be shooting for optimal tire wear (zero toe) at ride height and at no load (static setting)... achieving optimal (zero toe) ONLY as a result of a dynamic change like compliance bushing flex will ensure you are only optimal at a fraction of a percent of actual driving time.

Actually I've always wondered JC... I'd love to do my own string alignments, it would save me a ton of time and money. How to you ensure your string lines and the car are parallel? Care to do a write-up? Or is there a good write-up you want to point out?
 
#10 ·
Ideally, you want the wheels to track straight when rolling so it all depends on the amount of flex in the body and suspension when rolling. There is a certain amount of pulling forward by the drivetrain, even when cruising, so while zero is preferable, if you were going to be off zero but still within spec I'd want it at the negative toe side of spec on a front wheel drive car. Remember, you're talking about 0.16 inches here, between both wheels, so it's possible to roll the car off the rack and put it right back on and get slightly different measurements. The body does flex (strut towers mostly) so the settings do change ever so slightly whenever you move the car.

I've seen different string alignments and finally settled on one that seems to be the most accurate and has given me pretty good results. The key to string alignment is, as you say, getting the string parallel. Using the front and rear track measurements seems to be the best method and is described in the article below. They make some relatively inexpensive tools for measuring camber but I haven't bought one. I use the level method just as described in the article.

The biggest headache is getting underneath the car to adjust the tie rods. I need to make some small ramps as the article suggests but I haven't gotten around to that. What I usually do is loosen up the tie rod bolts before I set my string out and get the wrenches that fit. Then once my string is centered and I start my measurements I can reach around blindly and adjust the tie rods.

The other headache is keeping the opposite side wheel from moving when you adjust one side or the other. You want to set your steering wheel exactly straight when you start but if the opposite side wheel moves when you adjust a tie rod then your measurements will be off and your steering wheel won't be straight. I've thought about getting some of those flexible nylon cutting boards and having the tires sit on top of them to make the wheel turn easier. Also a good steering wheel holder would be really helpful.

With the above suggestions I think it's possible to do it in the 30 minutes the article claims but it's always taken me at least an hour to get it right. I wasn't able to reach the rear adjusting bolts for toe so, if you want to do that, you'll need to get the car up a bit. Remember, the car needs to roll on to the blocks. If you just let it down on to the blocks using a jack it won't be sitting correctly. Caster can't be checked with this method but isn't adjustable on the Ody so it doesn't much matter. My GMC pickup has all the adjustments so I can set toe and camber but can't check the caster which should be checked before setting the others.

Do It Yourself Alignment Tips
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#12 ·
Also, instead of a tape measure for measuring the distance from the front and back of each wheel to the string I use my digital caliper and the metal rod that sticks out the end. Works much better and more accurate than a tape measure.

Getting the car up higher with the blocks, as mentioned, would be really helpful but you need the string to go through the center of each wheel so you would need pretty tall jack stands if you raise it too much.

Holding the steering wheel and keeping the opposite side wheel from moving when adjusting are the two biggest challenges I still need to overcome with this method.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#13 ·
I read the alignment tips article. Seems simple enough. They measure the string off the center of the wheel. But I have plastic hubcaps on my Ody. So I can't measure off those. I would think I'd get inaccurate results. To get the hubcaps off I have to take all 5 lugnuts off. So the only solution I can think of is to measure off a lugnut. It's not in the center but close enough? Anyone have any other ideas?
 
#14 ·
If you're just using the measurement for getting the string parallel I think it would be close enough. Then I'd measure the from the same place on the wheel for measuring the toe itself. The other options is to remove the hubcaps prior to the alignment. It's a bit of a pain to go through all that before, and then put them all back on when you're done, though.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
#16 ·
The track usually isn't the same. So, if you have a service manual you can go there and get the tracks or you can find the track measurements online at some of the car spec websites. Then, as the article states, you simply set the string at different distances from the front and back wheels.

For example, the front track of the Gen 3 Ody is 1694mm and the rear track is 1697 mm. That's a total difference of 3mm with the front track being narrower than the rear. Now divide by 2 for the difference on each side of the vehicle.

I will setup my string at 100.0 mm (just picking an easy round number) at the rear hubs and 101.5mm at the front hubs. That should give perfectly parallel strings. If you set your jackstands ahead of and behind the vehicle you can then measure and double check those distances for parallel.
 
Save
Reply Quote Like Like
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
About this Discussion
16 Replies
6 Participants
Last post:
surgeon
Honda Odyssey Forum
posts
1.1M
members
432K
Since
2000
Odyclub community is the #1 forum to discuss all things Honda Odyssey: minivans, safety, service maintenance, mods, and more.
Full Forum Listing
Explore Our Forums
2005 - 2010 Odyssey 2011 - 2017 Odyssey 1999 - 2004 Odyssey 2018+ Odyssey Problems and Concerns