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Dreaded P0301 & P0685

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panhead490

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
The P0301 code for my 2013 Odyssey brought me here. Thankful for this community so I can see if Honda may help address the misfiring/not running well (http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A13-081.PDF) but what I couldn't find on YouTube or many places was what to try with P0685.

From what I understand fuse/relays/the ECM itself might be responsible (no lighting strikes here ;) and P0685 on its own could be making the misfire / rough running and it not be the VCM/ring issue.

But with 100K miles and being 100 miles from home/my normal Honda dealership, I was hoping to see if there were any quick things to check or try.

My list right now is based of John's recommendations here (p0685 - ECM Relay)

If anyone else has insight on P0685, let me know. Going to grab fuses and possibly a relay or two for a Hail Mary before I go back to the car.

Other things:
-Was bought Honda Certified Preowned in 2017
-Oil changes/regular maintenance at the dealership (I did the brakes/rotors myself to save $)
-No timing belt work done yet -- know its coming
-Car has been running a little rougher the last few weeks. Never hasn't started but 100 miles into a 180 mile road trip, the CEL came on and started blinking. As I pulled off the highway it was running very rough and could tell it was misfiring.
-Drove to Autozone to pull codes, found the 2 I mentioned
-Drove to car rental to continue the road trip and driving back to the van now.
 
#3 ·
I would be much more concerned about the P0301 than the P0685.

The misfire code is likely due to VCM causing fouled plugs and dirty piston rings. I would recommend new plugs and a VCM defeat device like the VCMTunerII or the VCMuzzler. The dealer will tell you it needs new piston rings. If they're going to cover it under extended warranty, then fine. When they're done install a VCM defeat device. If it's not covered under extended warranty, then I'd recommend new plugs and the defeat device. It will likely clean itself up once all the cylinders are firing all the time.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
Thanks to you both. Already have the VMTunerII on order thanks to the great info here

Was raining too much to review the fuses well and avoid water. Hoping to do that tonight. Nothing looked off about the wiring as far as rodents. Will clean/reattach terminals just to be sure.

As far as the misfire, I’m going to pull plug #1 and take a photo just to keep them honest. If I don’t see it very fouled, I will try others but without a heater, I’m trying to limit my late night time checking over the van.

Dropping the van off tomorrow morning. Hoping the rings get noticed.

Current questions:
-Can I hurt the van driving 10 miles to the dealer with a misfire? AAA has been terrible go deal with so far and after a long tow, I’m not sure they will turn around and tow me again so quickly ;)

-For the piston rings, is there anything I should do besides pull the plugs and take pics of those? Have basic tools but no scope/camera for the cylinder.
 
#5 ·
It's not good for the catalytic converter to drive with a misfire but you need an active misfire code stored in order to have any chance of getting the extended warranty.
 
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#6 ·
They won't look at the rings. They will look at the plugs and determine if oil fouling is occurring. If it is, then they will recommend the ring job.
 
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Discussion starter · #7 ·
Thanks John. Good to know about the catalytic converter.

And I meant taking a pic of the plug just in case they said it wasn’t the rings fault, cleaned it up, or replaced instead of dealing with the bigger issue.
 
#8 ·
Sometimes they will replace the plugs and send you on your way to wait for it to happen again. It doesn't hurt to pull the plug so you know what it looks like. Just put it back in as it is and don't clear the codes so that they have all the data they need.
 
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Discussion starter · #9 ·
Thinking the evidence is strong for the extended warranty with these photos. Agree or disagree?

Cylinder #4 looks like an old plug but ok. Error code with misfire on #1 seems pretty oily and bad. But I might just be seeing what I want to see ;)
 

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#11 ·
Cylinder 4 turns off in "V4" mode for VCM - so it won't even be the best cylinder. 5 and 6 should look even better than 4.
John is right though - classic VCM oil-fouling. Cross those fingers for coverage, otherwise you have a plan of attack (new plugs, disable VCM).

-Charlie
 
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Discussion starter · #12 ·
Just wanted to circle back here to share how things played out and got resolved in case it helps others. My guess is this last year of warranty coverage will find other 2013 owners on this site looking for ideas.

I pulled the plugs and marked them just in case they got swapped between cylinders or replaced and they pretended there wasn't fouling. Have been to the dealer numerous times and didn't expect that but I had a feeling I was going to have to call them out on being wrong based on other owners' posts/experiences.

Forgot to mention: P0685 seemed to be addressed by cleaning terminals. Didn't look dirty but I went over everything with battery cleaner (changes color with acid -- not much changed), metal wool pad, and wiping things up. Checked fuses and didn't find anything there at all. Would find out once the dealer checked things out if it was still an issue.
  1. Because of the short window of time left on the warranty, I left P0685 off of what I told the dealer. Wanted them focused on the misfire/engine running poorly.
  2. Dealer agrees to pull codes and review to make recommendations ($90 flat rate, they waive it with work done).
  3. Dealer pulls the misfire P0301 but doesn't mention P0685. Seems like the cleaning/reinstall did the trick. Had replaced the battery 4 months ago but never had issues with it. They see plug fouling on 1 and recommend replacing. They do NOT bring up piston rings/extended warranty/etc.
  4. I bring up the TSB and they agree to have the service tech review it. The service advisor goes through it with me first and says that it looks like it may apply based on year/model/fouling pictures.
  5. They review and then admit missing it but mentioned they need to check the VIN. They say it's not showing as being covered but will go to Honda corporate to see what they say.
  6. Same day they hear back and the dealer makes a huge deal how they are pushing for coverage/making it right for a regular customer.
  7. Like others here, they agreed to cover 75%. Outstanding balance was 25% or $500. Dealer said they would cover that which was encouraging but it all came back to them wanting to get me to commit for the timing belt/tensioner & valve adjustments.
    • Last 2 plugs -- warranty covers 4: $125
    • Timing belt/water pump without tensioner: $1600
    • Timing belt/water pump with tensioner: $1800
    • Valve adjustment: $750
  8. I pushed hard for just paying for parts (and mentioning they were already making money on parts) because things would be apart for the piston ring replacement but they wouldn't budge. Since they had already decided to cover the $500 they felt like they were eating too much. A bit of a bummer but so it goes.
  9. I ended up paying them for the last 2 plugs instead of the $90 diagnostic. Still have the NGK plugs I ordered 6 months ago that I'll save and change in when I'm around 150-160K just because I have them.
  10. We parted ways and I had a car that was drivable again with a VCM Tuner II on its way to avoid repeating this again ;)

Thanks to the forum here, realized there was no way $1800 was anything close to reasonable for the timing belt work. Started calling around to the other St. Louis Honda dealers where I'm based along with an independent repair shop that I have had friends take clutch replacement/head gasket work to and have been treated fairly.

I found that the Honda dealers varied between $995 for the timing belt/water pump with tensioner to the max of $1800 that I received. Numerous ones were in the $1200, $1300 range, and one was $1500. Independent shop was $950. Valve adjustment ranged from $400-550 from those same dealers/IRF.

So I quickly learned that the dealership I used for the ongoing maintenance was on the highest end for the larger jobs. For smaller stuff, it wasn't a ton of extra money so not a huge deal. It's convenient so I didn't mind. But an $800 difference on a 1 day job was just not going to wor for me. So please do your due diligence and call around. A lot of dealerships will match prices if it's Honda to Honda. Mine wouldn't because they were already "paying $500".

Even paying $125 for 2 plugs when I bought all the tools & 6 plugs to do it for $175 vs the $350 I was quoted awhile back was a little painful. But having brand new piston rings and all that work done for no charge was a win.

If they had been honest enough to say we can do the TB work at the same time if you pay for the parts, I'd be singing their praises. Now, I'm going forward and I will price check and have them match another St. Louis Honda dealer for anything large.

Hope this helps. Off to the Honda dealer that quoted $995 in a couple of days to get the TB work done and have that peace of mind. Wish it was like brakes or plugs ... then I'd tackle it myself. But maybe I'll acquire those skills later in life :)

Thanks again to the timely and helpful feedback here. Will be doing research and scouring the forums for future issues and eventually when I'm in the market for another Odyssey but I think I'll be good for another 75-100K.
 
#13 ·
panhead490 said:
  • Timing belt/water pump without tensioner: $1600
  • Timing belt/water pump with tensioner: $1800
Click to expand...
Ugh, they were basically trying to get their $500 back on this right here. Most of the labor (though not all) is already done while doing the piston rings. They are even overcharging for most dealers price on the timing belt service - even though they are doing LESS work than a normal timing belt job.

-Charlie
 
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Discussion starter · #14 ·
Yep. I'd say more than their $500 at that price. More like wanting to get paid for 2 projects at the same time considering Honda corporate is reimbursing them for 75% of the ring job. Was able to vote with my feet and go to another dealership.
 
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panhead490
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