Remanufactured Cylinder Heads Major Issues

Jeckel7234 · Jan 10, 2022

2009 Odyssey EX-L, 128K Miles

Good afternoon everyone, I just want to relay my experiences after a timing belt failure to the group and identify some major issues I've had with some remanufactured cylinder heads I received from a "reputable" cylinder head company.

I changed the timing belt about 3 years and 30k miles ago with a "Honda" kit I purchased off ebay. About a month ago the belt broke, the smoking gun failures I found were poor quality bearings and a likely poor quality belt. The idler pulley bearing had significant side to side play (0.009") and I noticed the belt had no markings on it at all. The Honda (Mitsubishi) belt i now have is well marked and I dont believe the markings would have completely warn away. The bearings were also labeled as "DKF" bearing were as the Honda Bearings should have actually been Koyo bearings. I did not try to identify any of this when i installed it, however i do remember everything coming in clearly labeled Honda parts bags. The company I ordered this kit from is apparently out of business.....

Now after the belt broke, I had (1) bent most of the intake valves on both heads (2) a rocker arm roller bearing blew apart (3) 3 other rocker arm roller bearings were noticeably rough to roll (4) damage to lobes on both cam shafts. After seeing the extent of the damage i quickly abandoned the idea of rebuilding these heads; and after seeing the cost of new heads from Honda ($2500ish) I turned to either finding used or reman heads.

I found a company I took as reputable that only deals in remanufacturing cylinder heads. I'll list the issues and summarize the problem.

(1) Paint: They painted the aluminum cylinder heads in the valve body area and this paint is just falling off. Specifically the paint on spark plug tubes. After my first 20 min run, i pulled the valve covers to inspect and noticed small silvery specs in the oil (this freaked me out), every piece i pulled out was paint. I changed the oil and put on about another 200 miles on and now im having a P3497 code and many issues with the VCM system, think this is due to the paint in the oil. I drain and strain the oil, and cut open the oil filter to inspect and see massive amounts of paint littering everywhere.

Cylinder Head Paint 1
Cylinder Head Paint 2
Oil Strainer
Oil Filter Cut Open

(2) Rocker arms missing shims: I just happen to notice two of the non-vcm rocker arms had a good amount of side to side play down the oil passage tube. Each non-vcm rocker arm should have shims on both sides of them. I had to pull shims off my old heads

Missing Shims

(3) They assembled the rocker arm bridge with a damaged bolt: As I was replacing both heads i had several fastener types that i wanted to make sure the torqued down correctly. This included the rocker arm bridge. I backed each of them out slightly the went to torque them down to 16 ft-lbs. As i go through these each of them were at the torque with roughly 90 deg rotation , then i get to one of them and the bolt just keeps rotating....... I then go to back out the bolt and see what looks like a bolt that was severely stretched however it was no longer than any other bolt. I end up pulling all of the bolts out and replacing them with the bolts from my old heads.

Bolt
One of these bolts

I plan on discussing these issues with the company tomorrow, Ill post how that conversation goes.

Update : I purchased these heads from this company (Cylinder Heads for All Makes and Models | Cylinder Heads). They are a distributor for these heads, they actually came from Allied Motor Parts.

Ted · Jan 10, 2022

Why spread FUD over the whole industry, rather than name the company that made what you consider crap?

Jeckel7234 · Jan 10, 2022

I'm going to give the company a chance to respond before i say they are crap. The intent of this post is document the issues and if anyone in the future is replacing heads then this is things they should check over before installing it.

Ted · Jan 10, 2022

Well, the product you rec'd was crap, regardless of what they do.

I agree with giving them a chance. One of the things I like to know about a company is how they handle problems. So, if they flip you the bird, I'd like to know their name. If they stand by product and make good, I want to know their name.

I'm just not into "I've Got a Secret" game.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 10, 2022

Absolutely, I'm planning on giving them a call within the hour.

davedrivesody · Jan 10, 2022

Jeckel7234 said:
They painted the aluminum cylinder heads in the valve body area and this paint is just falling off.

Mistakes can happen, but this is a process blunder. Paint on external surfaces is okay, but not on internal parts.

Interested to hear what the manufacturer says about it.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 10, 2022

I just called the company and explained the issues, they agreed and didnt dispute any of the problems. I also sent them a link to this post so they could see everything.

I think this was definitely a processing blunder. And agree that painting the external surfaces for aesthetics makes since and that painting internal surfaces makes no sense and just adds to the risk.

The company suggested that I get the heads reassembled and "get through" the issues prior to them making any decisions on how to proceed.

I currently need to reinstall the bank 2 (forward) rocker arms and valve cover; I also sheared off one the serpentine belt tensioner cast aluminum nuts last night (the other nut was sheared off long ago), so I also now need to grab one of those before I can take it on a drive. Ill stay in touch with how this goes.

davedrivesody · Jan 10, 2022

Jeckel7234 said:
The company suggested that I get the heads reassembled and "get through" the issues prior to them making any decisions on how to proceed.

So they want you to continue fixing all the problems, then what? Claim no harm, no foul?

In any case, I think the first step is that the heads have to come off, stripped down, and chemically cleaned to remove the paint. Even if the flakes eventually flush into the sump, they could eventually clog the oil filter.

kernel · Jan 10, 2022

Jeckel7234 said:
I changed the timing belt about 3 years and 30k miles ago with a "Honda" kit I purchased off ebay. About a month ago the belt broke, the smoking gun failures I found were poor quality bearings and a likely poor quality belt.

I hope that this time you did not purchase another timing belt kit off of flea-bay? Rather get an Aisin kit from Rock Auto or another reputable source.

Ted · Jan 10, 2022

Is there a warranty? Does it exclude consequential damages?

This feels like it's headed toward their giving you a coupon for a free container of petrolatum from the dollar store. If you send a SASE.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 12, 2022

The family's been feeling like crap the last couple of days, pretty sure we've got the vid in here. I'm getting a test done tomorrow. But I haven't had any motivation to be in the garage. I'll keep this up to date.

But yea I don't understand why they need me to keep going through this. I bought the heads from this company (Cylinder Heads for All Makes and Models | Cylinder Heads).

davedrivesody · Jan 12, 2022

Be well. Everything else can wait.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 16, 2022

Covid test came back positive, the wife and I felt pretty crummy for a few days but thankfully the kids didnt have any real issues. I got back in the ody yesterday.

Without removing the heads, I cleaned as much of the internal paint off as i could. All of the paint i could access came off with minimal effort. Re-verified valve lash on all cylinders and reassembled everything.

Started her up with a vacuum gauge installed and was pulling a solid 21in/hg. Took her out for about an hour (40 mile) test drive, at on and off hwy speeds, I "gunned it" up to about 4600-4900 rpm at least 10 times with no issues or check engine lights to note (previously i was getting the P3497 anytime i went past 4000 rpm). Ill continue to drive and keep an eye out for any issues, but i think any issues Ill have in the near future will be directly related to contaminated oil.

My plan going forward is to change the oil at a 500 mile interval and inspect the oil filter for contamination, ill adjust the oil change interval to suit as the contamination goes down.

My additional costs due to the heads I received:
My Time: at least 20hrs
Serpentine Belt Tensioner: $107
VCM Manifold Gasket Assembly ($9 x 2): $18
Oil Filter ($10 x 3): $30
Full Syn 5W-20, 5qts ($30 x 3): $90
Additional Future Oil Changes (500 vs 4000 miles): Fair to assume Ill change the oil atleast 4 times over the 4000 miles ($120 extra)

Total: $365 + 20 mhrs

Im hoping to have my final discussion with CylinderHead.com tomorrow.

dvpatel · Jan 17, 2022

Jeckel7234 said:
Started her up with a vacuum gauge installed and was pulling a solid 21in/hg. Took her out for about an hour (40 mile) test drive, at on and off hwy speeds, I "gunned it" up to about 4600-4900 rpm at least 10 times with no issues or check engine lights to note (previously i was getting the P3497 anytime i went past 4000 rpm). Ill continue to drive and keep an eye out for any issues, but i think any issues Ill have in the near future will be directly related to contaminated oil.

My plan going forward is to change the oil at a 500 mile interval and inspect the oil filter for contamination, ill adjust the oil change interval to suit as the contamination goes down.

Well. I have a bad feeling on this one. I am betting they are banking on the fact that once assembled, you won't hound them for much. Now that its running fine (per say), they can say its fine. Let us know how this goes. I would NOT have proceeded at all and demanded a replacement without the internal paint and bolt issue(s) myself.

Ted · Jan 16, 2022

I don't know the size of the paint particles, but if of any size but "tiny", I'd be concerned with clogging the oil pickup screen. Enough to make me go buy a borescope.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 16, 2022

I "think" the mesh strainer on the pickup tube is fairly large. I attempted to put my cheap borescope through the drain plug but could never really make out the strainer. Can anyone else comment on about how large the holes are?

I haven't seen any chips of paint larger than maybe an 1/8"sq, but given how easy it all came off im believing itll get chopped up through any metallic component. I'm more worried about the quantity of small pieces limiting flow through the main oil filter, or even getting up to the vcm solenoid assembly strainer.

And i went to purchase a vcm tuner 2 but they were sold out so I bought a s-vcm. Should be here tomorrow.

Ted · Jan 16, 2022

Jeckel7234 said:
I "think" the mesh strainer on the pickup tube is fairly large.

Large as in many square inches area, or large holes?

But what sized flakes have come out with the oil?

Jeckel7234 · Jan 17, 2022

From the oil filter, they the paint pieces were all very small, approx 1/16" sq or smaller. I pulled a couple of larger pieces out of the head, approx. 1/8" sq.

I screenshoted this picture from an eric the car guys youtube channel, where he had a j35a7 blow apart on a customer's of his and he tore the hole motor down and he ended up cutting the pickup tube strainer cover off so you can see it pretty well here.
Oil pickup strainer

Ted · Jan 17, 2022

Looks like about the size of window screening. If you're satisfied it won't get clogged, well, you're the one hands and eyes on the situation. That equals the best position to judge.

Ted · Jan 17, 2022

@Jeckel7234, I think you've handled this about as well as you could. While I'd have been able to hold out for a better solution, I have the luxury of my Honda being a second car for me. Down for a week or two means no inconvenience. But I realize most people need to have their cars running to get to work and meet other needs and responsibilities.

Good luck...but I think you'll be OK.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 26, 2022

Cylinderheads.com called me a couple days ago and offered to refund me $400, which I accepted, this was about half of what I spent on the heads. Ill say I appreciated the conversations I had with them. They were rational, apologetic and interested in determining why each of the faults happened.

I currently have a little more than 300 miles on the Ody since I cleaned off most of the paint and havent experienced any issues so far. As long as everything continues smoothly, I plan on doing an oil change and inspecting the filter by next weekend. Ill try and make a point to upload some pictures of the filter.

Ted · Jan 26, 2022

Sounds reasonable, and I like that they reached out to you.

Not a recommendation, but thinking out loud: I'd be wondering about a way to watch oil pressure. Unfortunately, I don't think it's available on the bus through an existing sensor.

Jeckel7234 · Jan 26, 2022

I got the Harbor Freight Oil Pressure test kit, however i dont have an adapter that will fit into the VCM oil pressure sensor connection. Does anyone know another connection that i might be able connect to?

Remanufactured Cylinder Heads Major Issues

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