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I have two battery testers. I have this one because it has a heating element in it and puts a real life load on the battery:


And I have this one because it gives some digital data on the battery and the charging system. Both have their uses and sometimes I use both on the same battery:

 
Funny thing I tried that TOPDON battery tester and it told me a clearly almost dead battery was good and just needed a charge. Well, sure, if I charge it and use it right away it works, but leave the car sit a week or so and the battery has drained itself to a point it can't start the car. And yeah, I know it is the battery because I can leave the battery sit disconnected and it does the same thing (just takes a day or two longer without any external load). Oh well. I ended up returning the thing.
 
Funny thing I tried that TOPDON battery tester and it told me a clearly almost dead battery was good and just needed a charge. Well, sure, if I charge it and use it right away it works, but leave the car sit a week or so and the battery has drained itself to a point it can't start the car. And yeah, I know it is the battery because I can leave the battery sit disconnected and it does the same thing (just takes a day or two longer without any external load). Oh well. I ended up returning the thing.
I have the foxwell battery tester that does similar SOC and SOH readings.
I don't consider it gospel but more a guide.

The toaster tester like John linked above is what I hit the battery with first, before using the foxwell.

This has been pretty reliable for testing a newly charged battery thats displaying issues.
 
Funny thing I tried that TOPDON battery tester and it told me a clearly almost dead battery was good and just needed a charge. Well, sure, if I charge it and use it right away it works, but leave the car sit a week or so and the battery has drained itself to a point it can't start the car. And yeah, I know it is the battery because I can leave the battery sit disconnected and it does the same thing (just takes a day or two longer without any external load). Oh well. I ended up returning the thing.
You can't really "test" a discharged battery. You have to charge it first, then retest it. If it doesn't charge then there's no need for the battery tester anyway. If it says "Good-Recharge" then that's what you need to do, then test again. I use it all the time working on numerous cars every week, sometimes every day. I do use both testers, though. As with any tool, it's not for everything.
 
You can't really "test" a discharged battery. You have to charge it first, then retest it. If it doesn't charge then there's no need for the battery tester anyway. If it says "Good-Recharge" then that's what you need to do, then test again. I use it all the time working on numerous cars every week, sometimes every day. I do use both testers, though. As with any tool, it's not for everything.
My point is that I did charge the battery. Let it sit for 24 hours (disconnected), then tested it, and it said "Good-Recharge"

Maybe I had a dud. Entirely possible.

The car it is in doesn't get used a lot, so I stuck a permanently mounted charger under the hood and leave it plugged in when not in use. I converted our 2013 Civic into a "plug in" hybrid :ROFLMAO:
 
If you charge a battery and it won't come up to 12.6 volts the battery is no good to begin with. It's not the end all be all of battery testers but it does a really good job in most cases and know what to use it for and when. I use it for testing batteries that aren't necessarily having an issue to make sure they are putting out enough CCA's to advise people that it's getting time to replace the battery before it fails on them.
 
Discussion starter · #27 ·
Ok, I purchased a battery tester and I will make sure battery is charged and then test it. I assume I hold the trigger on the 100A tester for about 2 to 3 seconds and should stay on the green.

I re-read all your amazing notes and fully understand it, and will test all cables and voltage drops.

Only one part i am confused about. I understand alternator doing well since voltage is 14v all the time even when all electrical components are on. I get that is a good sign being that it didnt run out of juice. I also get it that battery should be withdrawing current to charge itself based on its charge level.

My only concern is that isn't there a regulator that might be limiting the amount of current to battery to avoid battery overcharging? What if that is defective in my case? Isn't that what chargers are supposed to do? Detect battery charge level and cut down current if it's charged to avoid ober charging? That is all I am worried about because I didn't think that what I see as current going to battery was enough to fully charge it based on my obeservations and trips where after a long trip I notice battery not charged. But battery tester and cable voltage drops will be good tests as u advised.

Can you please send me a Pic if possible to where the engine ground and the starter to test cables for starter? I can probably figure it out but might save me some time if u have a picture handy.

Thanks,
 
The regulator is internal to the alternator. It regulates voltage to keep it at somewhere around 14v regardless of the amount of current being drawn by loads.

You're way overcomplicating all this. You either have a defective battery or a bad cable preventing current from being able to be sent to the battery. My money is on a defective battery but a corroded or damaged cable or terminal is always possible.

The entire engine block is grounded from the battery. That's where the negative battery cable goes, in addition to where it attaches to the body ground. Another neat trick...You can check your block ground by putting your volt meter leads on the negative battery post and the engine block and crank the engine over. Just like the other voltage drop tests I described, you should see less than 1-200mV. Again, you must have current flow to make it a valid test so checking during engine crank is the best.
 
My only concern is that isn't there a regulator that might be limiting the amount of current to battery to avoid battery overcharging? What if that is defective in my case? Isn't that what chargers are supposed to do?
As John said, you are overcomplicating this. Vehicle charging systems have worked the same way for about 100 years now.

The chemistry of a lead-acid battery along with the temperature (of the battery) and the voltage output of the alternator regulate the current. It is a CHEMICAL PROCESS to charge the battery. There is an activation energy that is required (over the rest voltage) to store the chemical energy in the battery so it can be released later. It is a self-regulating process - the higher the difference between the resting voltage of the battery (charge level) and the charge voltage, the higher the charge current. As long as the charge voltage is not too high, the battery cannot physically get overcharged. It will slow down then stop accepting current/charge when it is full. Denso and Honda know what they are doing there...

BUT!!!! If there is an issue with the battery (internal resistance, bad cell, etc.) or the wiring (high resistance, unreliable connection), then the alternator will be supplying the correct charge voltage for the battery (and current to run the vehicle electronics) but the battery will not be able to charge how it should.

My vote is on bad battery terminals, but all the stuff John as said is also totally valid.

-Charlie
 
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The car it is in doesn't get used a lot, so I stuck a permanently mounted charger under the hood and leave it plugged in when not in use. I converted our 2013 Civic into a "plug in" hybrid :ROFLMAO:
Not bad (y)(y)(y):ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: on the plug-in hybrid.
But back when I had a rarely used VW Vanagon camper, I stuck a little solar panel in the window to make it one of the first solar powered cars, as I'd brag to my friends. :p
 
Nice plots here. These are pretty much the exact same info that the AntiGravity battery monitor thing I posted earlier will show you. So there is no need to think about getting one of those. I expect this data will give you the answer.

First question is where exactly is this connected? I.e., what exact voltage is this measuring? Perhaps obviously, not everything in the car that is nominally 12V (or B+ or battery voltage or system voltage, etc.) is actually that. The alternator stud, battery positive terminal, battery positive post, regulated B+ that runs the electronics, etc. You don't generally need to know or care about these differences until you have a problem you want to solve.

When driving it always says charging and voltage around 14v, never an issue. As I mentioned I also added current measure and alternator seems to always provide power to all equipment ok since I don't see any draw from battery during driving.
If it really does always show ~14V (say 13.6V+) while the engine is running, then there is not a problem with the alternator.

If you check what I said in an earlier post about what the clamp ammeter should be showing, that hopefully explains.

Expanding on what others have mentioned, ...

The way the regulation works is that the alternator itself has a "voltage regulator" built in to it. Setting aside unnecessary and unfortunate complication added by the Honda PCM/ECU and ELD, the VR will control the current (in the neighborhood of zero to 4 Amps) that flows through the field windings within the alternator. This controls the strength of the magnetic field within the alternator. As the drive belt turns the alternator pulley, it moves the alternator rotor, which houses these field windings (current supply is through slip rings to allow it to turn), so the magnetic field rotates. As the field is forced (requires belt force / rotor torque to move it, nothing is free here) to move past the conductors in the stator, current is generated (much greater than the field windings current - up to 100 Amps depending on the alternator design), roughly proportional to engine RPM (rotor RPM) and rotating magnetic field strength.

But this rotating magnetic field strength is proportional to the field current, which is controlled by the VR circuit. So if the VR sets the field current to zero, there will be no magnetic field and no generated stator current (alternator output current). If the VR set the field current to a max of say 4 Amps, and the engine RPM were high enough, the alternator might output 100 Amps. And if the car was not needing 100 Amps at that moment, voltage would rise, flowing into the battery and literally cooking it. So the VR does not do that.

If the VR is working as it should, the field current will be regulated to maintain 14.4V at the battery. So if the alternator and VR are working properly, you can forget about all these details and just consider the alternator as a constant voltage source.

It will of course be limited - if the 800 RPM max output of the alternator is 60 Amps (for example), and the car needs 70 Amps at that moment, the alternator will be putting out the full 60 Amps, but voltage will drop marginally below 14.4V as the battery makes up for the remaining 10A.

The PCM/ECU also measures total system electrical load (with the ELD), and as a fuel economy complicating optimization feature, may decide that the car is warmed up, electrical load is low, and based on driving needs, the alternator output can be lowered. As I mentioned, I find in my VCM-muzzled car, this almost never happens due to this system thinking the engine is too cool, and I get the full 14.4V (regulated to 13.7-13.8V as displayed on my dash gauge) all the time.

So what you are reporting here indicates no problems at all.

I just went back and read your posts so far in this thread, and don't think there is anything at all wrong. The only problem may be that you are expecting to see a current measurement, but you should not be.

I also have a obdii bt which also shows correct voltages on my phone when I check the volts (CM) data reader of over 13.8volts.

Battery was replaced in Dec, and the battery before was also in good condition and had same issue, that is why I replaced it. Same issue. Two new batteries being bad is highly unlikely from costco.
Do you leave this Bluetooth OBD2 dongle plugged in all the time? Have you measured the parasitic drain due to that?

Agree, not likely to have two bad batteries. More likely that there is nothing wrong with either battery.

I also checked for parasitic draw. It's not that. Because after driving for 1 hour one time and i stopped to fill gas the car hardly started. So it was that battery was already low charge and driving for one hour didn't charge it even though voltage was always showing 14v on my battery monitor during trip.
There is always parasitic draw, it is just a question of how much. You will see battery voltage drop more at first, with the same current, just due to how the battery works.

I would be cautious about drawing a conclusion. Your battery monitor should be showing what is going on quantitatively.

If you can point to a battery plot and indicate exactly what kind of problem you were having when you think it was malfunctioning, that would be helpful.

The reason the voltage was charging at 2am is because the AC charger was connected. Then it stopped when battery was full, and surface charge until morning. Then I drove two times at around 3pm for about 10 minutes with a stop and drove again at 20:18 (ignore this as it was 1 min drive) You can see battery at night was 12.7v indicating it was full from the ac charger. You can see also the short trips voltage was 14v.
Seeing how this plot may have been different if the charger were removed (vs. going into float charge) at 2AM might show what kind of parasitic drain you have.

The drive at 3PM looks perfect. The drop following the first and second drive indicate something kept drawing power until around 4:20 PM when voltage came back up to about 12.6V. 8PM drives look perfect as well.

The "low" cranking voltage is barely lower than expected. I would not consider that a problem by itself. The ripple and time to start (a little over a second) seem OK. A slightly weak battery or worn starter or imperfect connection / cable / ground could explain this.

What was wrong with the first alternator?

BTW, something in all this that I have learned to do over the years with my cars and other things, is to measure and understand them while they are working well, so I can more accurately know when something is wrong.

Simple, relevant example of that - battery voltage. There are people on the intertubes demanding that your battery is worn out and dead if it ever reads below 12.6V. That is of course wrong, but what I've done is to measure my battery when it is brand new, checking voltage (via the dash gauge) when I get in the car in the morning, after a day or a couple of weeks, pay attention to how it works, etc. Answer is that I will often see in the low 11 Volts range, and the car starts perfectly every time, with a new battery, and with the same battery after 3 years.
 
Not bad (y)(y)(y):ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO: on the plug-in hybrid.
But back when I had a rarely used VW Vanagon camper, I stuck a little solar panel in the window to make it one of the first solar powered cars, as I'd brag to my friends. :p
I thought about doing that, even bought a solar charger to try with. 2 issues though- no good place to put it and the driveway is on the north side of the house so sun exposure isn't the greatest. May have been enough to keep the battery topped off anyway.

Don't mind the dirt - I know it needs a bath soon.

Image

Image
 
Discussion starter · #33 ·
Thanks everyone. Really invaluable feedback. I saw the name BMS for the current sensor (Battery Management System) and I thought maybe it's just not charging the battery correctly, so that is why I thought it was that. I was thinking like the LifePO4 BMS :)

Anyways, I did some more testing yesterday. I stopped connecting battery to AC charger for now so I can see what is going on. Start over with all the hints you guys have given me:

at 17:47PM, voltage of battery was abot 12.5V. I did a battery test:
Before clicking the test button
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After:
Image

I have a 700cca battery so it looks like I am borderline, but loos like battery wasn't fully charged anyways. I did this about 5 times and it all was the same. didn't drop during test, each was about 3 - 4 seconds. didn't wanna burn the tester :)

Then when I tried to start car for a trip, voltage was about 12.3v, it tookabout 3 seconds to start, but started:
Image


I went for about 15+ min drive, while measuring current:

It does look it's charging much better than I saw before. So this seems to have really charged battery well. te 105a not sureit's it's just anomoly or really did 105a for split second (only one data point)?

Image


Then, I stopped for a bit,drove again... etc. after about 2 hours at 19:50, cranking improved:


Image

battery test improved:
Image


I then did some testing:

Voltage between battery terminal and engine block while car was off: 1.3mv
Voltage between battery terminal and engine block while car was on:25mv

Voltage between battery terminal and car body while car was off: .1mv
Voltage between battery terminal and car body while car was on: 3mv

I coudln't measure voltage positve to starter and B+ of alternator cause I will need to research where the starter is... and alternator is abit hard to reach the cables. will figure it out later.

Then I disconnected the positive battery terminal, and connected a voltimeter in series to measure the current when car is off.

for the first few seconds it was 1 amp. I got concerned, but then after few seconds it leveled at about 0.2a... not sure if that is good or bad.

I left vehicle for the night, and then at just after 9 had to drive again:

Image


crancking was 9.39v.

So, this is not enough time for me to see what is going to happen to battery. yes, I do leave my obdII connected lately, but in past I tested without it. Maybe I should remove it. It's the tiny BT blue ones you connect under the dash.

So all looks good now, it is also warmer weather this week, which I know makes things better as winter is the worst.

  • I think I need to see if battery voltage will keep dropping over few days. I didn't like the voltage drop over night in the graph above. maybe just dropping from the surface charge. might also have to leave battery without being connected to car to see if voltage will drop without parastic draw.
  • I will never be able to explain why I have few times where after a good drive I had an issue starting right away (after a gas refill) - if charging is good (and parastic draw not a factor here), why would it not work - thisi ncident what lead me to think it's charging system. could be started is intermittentor taking too much? not sure.

@oldskewel

I was driving on a long trip and alternator just died and got the battery icon on car, and then voltage on battery kept going down until it died. had just enough time to stop at a small village. had the family and was a very hot day! not a day I want to remember :)


Thank again for all the help... hope I am on the right track. will keep monitoring. but thought I'd update you guys on the testing :)
 

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The key off draw should eventually drop to below 50mA, preferably around 10mA. If you're seeing 200mA for a prolonged period of time and it never drops, that is a problem.
 
And that 3-seconds it took to start is a concern. The fact that it did start after 3 seconds, without voltage dropping over that period, and with normal looking ripple, all looks OK electrically. Also, you see one time you started and the system says 9.63V, green and good, vs. 9.23V orange and bad. To me the 0.4V difference is not a big deal, vs. the fact that qualitatively, voltage is level throughout each start is reassuring.

Have you considered a fuel problem where the fuel system drains back and needs some extra time to reach the engine? (or any other problem that might make it take longer to start after being off for a long time vs. soon after shutdown)

I don't know if it is on these cars, but usually when you turn the key to ON (not start), you can hear the fuel pump run for two seconds to prime it. You should see if you can hear that. The fuel pump is roughly below the floor under the left middle seat. If it does, try getting it to prime 2 or 3 times, and see if the 3-second starting becomes 1-second.
 
Did you ever disclose the year, model, and current km? Do you know why your alternator failed? Does your front rocker arm valve leak? Those are known to kill alternators:


I have had to use battery shims on older Hondas to make the terminal tighten properly. Apparently the aftermarket batteries have smaller posts(?) Anyway, the shims are little lead caps you put on the posts to make the clamp tighter. Dirt cheap.
 
Discussion starter · #37 ·
John Clark: I will have to use a better multimeter that I can leave for a long time. This is my best lead for now since I do notice drop in voltage over time. been driving daily so have not been able to see if voltage drop keeps going for days or if I just see the suraface voltage. might also try disconnect battery and keep an eye on voltage. what if the battery itself it taking too much.

oldskewel: fuel problem not yet, I was going to check why the starting is not easy at time, but it seems when battery is well charged, it works well, and I do notice lower voltage with time so been concentrating on battery charge. I do not know if I hear fuel pump... I tried pumping gas before IS tart car one time but that didn't help.

egads: 2014 Odyssey with 160K kilometers (99k miles). the battery terminals look good and connection looks good to terminal... the costco battery seems to be the same, I also have energyzer agm battery before this. same terminals. mechanic didn't tell me why it failed, it seems after about 10 years it was just time... it failed last summer.
"rocker arm valve leak "... not sure what that is. I would have to research it. but I heard that some oil can drip on alternator from engine and I had mechanic check last year, I was told it looks good.

Thank you all...
 
This thread is making me tired. If the battery is "taking to much" then it's no good. We've already told you the possible faults. Bad battery, bad terminals or cables, or a parasitic draw. Possibly a starter drawing too much but that isn't as likely. Batteries are very low quality anymore, even the supposed good ones. I never trust them. A good battery tester is key.

I'm not sure why you need a volt meter that can be left on a long time. You need an amp clamp that you can use to check for a draw, or put a meter in series with the battery and then let it sit for an hour and come back and check it. It doesn't need to stay in the whole time but if it's being used as an amp meter then it needs to stay in line, but probably doesn't necessarily need to be on the whole time. Personally I just use amp clamps unless I determine there is a problem.
 
Discussion starter · #39 ·
John,

Thanks for your help, but there’s really no need to be upset. Not all of us are experts like you—we might not always use the right terms or have all the ideal tools.

Yes, I meant an amp meter—sorry for the confusion when I said voltmeter. My clamp meter unfortunately isn’t great for low current measurements (its lowest DC range is 600A), and the wired one I tried says "30 seconds max use," so I’m aware I don’t have the proper gear yet but I’m working on it.

I do understand everything you've pointed out and I'm doing my best to figure it out step by step. I also want to mention that I’m simply posting updates so others who are learning can follow along and see what worked or didn’t—it's not just for me.

Thanks again for the input.
 
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