Interesting info on Bosch Oil Filter (OEM vs Wix vs Bosch)

dvpatel · Oct 2, 2009

Sexytom said:
I can do one better, I use Nissan Oil Filters on my Oddy. I am sure if I brought it to a dealer they would have an issue.

When I cross reference generic filters the Oddy and Nissan that I had (96 Infiniti I30T 5 speed) used the same filter. I have a few of the oem Nissan filters and they matched up exactly to the Honda's. So I tried it out, no problems what so ever.

Nissan part number 15208-9e000

Tom

I too discovered that the Nissan filter and the Honda filters are identical and can be interchanged. But that said, I stopped using Nissan filters after I saw this:

http://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...rced-induction/175085-dont-use-nissan-oem-oil-filters-long-post-lotsa-pics.html

This was posted in the "other" oil filter thread at:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showt.../showthread.php?s=&postid=449382&highlight=oil+and+filter+and+maxima#post449382

Also, based on the following thread, I would now use ST7317 in all three of my cars (the Maxima, the Accord and the Oddy).

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=71935

cnn · Oct 2, 2009

dvpatel said:
I too discovered that the Nissan filter and the Honda filters are identical and can be interchanged. But that said, I stopped using Nissan filters after I saw this:

http://www.myg37.com/forums/engine-...rced-induction/175085-dont-use-nissan-oem-oil-filters-long-post-lotsa-pics.html

Thanks dvpatel,

I suspected that too, Car makers are getting cheap and go with Fram these days!!!

I am reposting from my other thread on Oil Change DIY:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=65406

The Bosch 3323 Oil Filter Anatomy is shown. I am very happy with Bosch Oil Filter 3323:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=523218

I am sticking to Bosch Oil Filter from now on. I have used it for the last year, no problems at all.

cnn · Jul 18, 2012

I was at Advance Auto Parts, they now carry Mann ML-1008 oil filter (made in USA) for an inexpensive price of $3.50/each!

Bosch 3323 (Autozone) is $6.00/each.

Here is a photo comparing Bosch 3323 vs Mann ML-1008. The Mann ML-1008 is virtually identical to Bosch 3323 in every respect:
- Rubber Seal
- 8 holes
- Bypass Valve
- Casing
etc. etc.

Anyway, just passing info along, if you want to save a few $, get the Mann ML-1008 at Advance Auto Parts.

smtippin · Jul 19, 2012

OK, My turn to weigh in to this opinion laden controversy of oil filters (almost as bad as brand of oil, eh). I've done TONS of research, including cutaways of filters personally and while I admit I have no molecular biology or other impressive engineering/science degree or equipment that would allow me to give quantitative data, please see my work found on my motorcycle forum here, here, and here. After my research, I found the Wix/Napa Gold to be much preferred in all domains and that is what I have run exclusively on all of my vehicles. With that said, however, the filter media in the 7356 NAPA/WIX filter is lower quality (cellulose). So while our standard replacement Wix filter claims to use "Cellulose", Bosch uses a proprietary "FILTECH...exclusive blend of natural and synthetic materials" whatever that means. Interestingly enough, however, my Honda motorcycle uses the 1357 napa filter which is IDENTICAL in all specs except that it uses the improved filter media "Glass enhanced cellulose". See for yourselves (7356 vs. 1357).

To quickly comment on the supertech Walmart filter, DON'T BOTHER. It is crap since the bypass filter is flimsy and likely renders the oil filter absolutely useless. See my links above.

Did I stir the pot?

s

smtippin · Jul 19, 2012

smtippin said:
To quickly comment on the supertech Walmart filter, DON'T BOTHER. It is crap since the bypass filter is flimsy and likely renders the oil filter absolutely useless. See my links above.

s

Just to note (sorry the edit function is missing oddly), I have yet to chew through the 13 pages of the other oil filter thread, but I personally saw a crappy bypass valve on the Supertech filter. I do know, however, that many motorcycle forums talk about the US made ST filter from about 08 and older as being stellar, but the new ones are crap. I wonder if that is what I will see in the other thread.

s

smtippin · Jul 19, 2012

Just found DVPATEL's link to the supertech filter. As you can clearly see in my dissection and inspections, the bypass on this is junk in comparison to Wix/NAPA. Please see my above links to the motorcycle forum that shows my dissection.

Disclaimer: Please note, this is all my opinion and you'll probably void warranty if you step outside of OEM.

s

EDIT: Link to discussion of my supertech bypass failure is copied below:

Since there is so much controversy surrounding the supertech oil filter, I thought I'd tear apart the Supertech 7317 and see what I can find. Remember, I am just a rider with a grinder and a camera. Please make your own conclusions.

To begin, I will show you a picture of the Mexican made filter which is thought to be defective by some research (methodology and scrutiny has not been validated and the author if this claim has not replied to my emails).

The following quote is the only statement I can find that raises concern about this filter. Notice the comment about poor workmanship when outsourced.
"What Not To Use: Bosch, STP, and Wal-Mart Supertech While both the STP and the Bosch filters were at one point good filters, they are now manufactured off shore of sub-standard parts. The filter assemblies tended not to have even pleats and generally less media than other comparable filters. There was also a complete lack of a well functioning by-pass valve. With most filters there is an obvious and discrete by-pass valve, but with these filters the can spring and the by-pass valve are the same. The real issue is that in order for the filter to properly by-pass the entire filter assembly would have to move down during use. That is actually not possible with filter assembly properly seating into the anti-drain back valve. This means that the by-pass will effectively never work. In the center of the of picture below you see the filter assembly (top) and the can spring/by-pass valve (bottom). (The can spring / by-pass valve would flip over and into the filter assembly.)"
http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml

With that said, I tear into an American made Supertech 7317 filter to determine whether it is functional or defective as the Mexican made variety is thought to be.

Comparing the innards of this (US) filter with the first picture of the Mexican filter, you see very similar if not the same parts. In fact, both bases have a "Y" pressed into the metal. When the pieces are stacked as they would be found in a non-violated filter, the innards go together much like the Purolator. The Anti-Drain Back valve is pressed into the base by the filter element, which is forced to seat by a spring. The difference between the two is that the spring has the by-pass valve in it (the blue button) rather than attached to the top o the filter (This will be discussed in depth later).

Now to look at the parts.

In the above picture, the Anti-Drain Back valve is pressed onto the base. It looks functional, but according to http://motorcycleinfo.calsci.com/Filters.html, the valve is made from nitrile which is said to be an inferior product when compared to the silicon rubber found in both the Purolator and the Napa filters reviewed in a previous post.

Also of note, the base of the supertech filter has only 6 inlet holes (8 found in both the Purolator and Napa filters). The holes are larger than found on the Purolator and comparable to those found on the Napa filters.

The next piece of the filter is the actual element. The total length of the cannister (excluding the raised inner cylinder is 2 and 7/16" long. This is 3/16" longer than the Napa and 1/4" shorter than the Purolator. Total number of pleats is 40 as two are glued together to seal the edge. This is 11 pleats less than both the Napa and Purolator. The depth of the pleats on the Supertech filter is equivalent to that of both the Napa and Purolator. Due to the smaller number of pleats, both the Napa and the Purolator have greater filter element surface area. The filter media is also thinner than both the Napa and Purolator (based on side by side comparison as I lack appropriate tools to apropriately measure the thickness with confidence.

The other aspect of the Supertech oil filter important to mention is the holes on the inside cylinder of hte filter cannister. The holes are smaller but of greater quantity than found in the Napa and Purolator. This is not thought to be a strength or weakness of the filter as all three filters appear to allow appropriate flow through these holes.

The final piece of mention is the Spring at the end of the filter and the attached by-pass valve.

This image shows both sides of the spring and by-pass valve. The spring action appears to be very similar to that found on the Purolator and apears to be functional. The aspect worthy of mention is the by-Pass valve attached to it.
The quote above from http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml is repeated below to show how it is thought to be defective.

Essentially, the author is stating that the by-pass valve and the can spring function the same and are not distinguishable. This is absolutely false on this filter! The below picture shows me pressing on the back side of the by-pass valve, which is spring loaded as seen in the mirror of the above picture.The force I am applying to the spring is actually opposite of the force that would be placed on the filter when sealed and operational (Remember, the blue button is facing toward the base when all parts are in order). One can compare the function of this by-pass valve to that of the Purolator. The pressures work the same and the by-pass valve on this filter is thought to be fully functional.

Lets look at this with the parts fully assembled.

The by-pass valve sets on top of the oil filter like is seen with the Purolator and allows oil to by-pass the filter element according to oil pressure demands. As a result, I personally find the http://www.ntpog.org/reviews/filters/filters.shtml comments to not apply to the US made Supertech oil filter. Unfortunately, I have other concerns with this by-pass valve.

Look again at the picture of the back end of the blue plastic by-pass valve. The picture with the valve in the reflection of the mirror shows clearly that there has been some rubbing on the for tips of hte by-pass valve that keep tension on the spring. This is caused by the back of the lid of the filter. If you scan back up to the picture of the reconstructed oil filter with the lid cut back, you will see a decent gap between the four blue tips and the back of the lid. If you look down at the base though, you will see that the spring action is actually raising the lid off of it's resting position on a non dissected filter. The issue here is that there is a possibility for the back of the lid of the filter to actually compress the spring of the by-pass filter and keep it open to some degree even when unnecessary. The major concern with this is that the particles filtered out by the oil filter can possibly be reintroduced to the engine rendering the filter useless.
My other concern with this valve is when I filled the back of it with water. After filling the cup of the by-pass valve with water, I checked to see if there was any leakage. As this is the direction oil would flow if a leak existed, I found the experiment to be useful. What I found was a drop forming on the underside of the valve immediately. This is distressing. Even though oil is thicker (thought to be less likely to drip through the valve, the by-pass valve in a running motorcycle will receive some level of pressure. MY experiment had none. Look at the following picture. You will clearly see a droplet of water forming on the left side of the by-pass valve.

The conclusions I make about the US made Supertech 7317 filter follow.

With regard to the base, there are only 6 inlet holes. This is less than ideal, but I doubt it decreases the flow by a significant amount. The Anti-Drain Back valve is made from Nitrile which is thought to be an inferior product when compated to the silicon rubber found in the Napa and Purolator filters. The filter element is thinner and has less surface area than both the Napa and Purolator filters as there are 11 fewer pleats. Finally, the possibility exists that the by-pass valve could open when unnecessary or leak.

Please make your own conclusions and scrutinize my methodology. Personally, the money saved by purchasing a $2.77 filter is not worth the peace of mind I will have with either the Purolator or the Napa Gold.

cnn · Jul 19, 2012

FYI,

So it is not the money savings that I talked about, I want to see these oil filters from a "scientific standpoint", i.e., which is the best filter?

IIRC, Champion Lab makes oil filters for Purolator, Bosch and some Mann.
Just to to Advance Autoparts Store and get the same Purolator, Bosch and Mann ML-1008, they are identical in every way from the 8 holes to the Anti-drainback valve to the Bypass Valve etc. They look like identical brothers.

I have used Bosch 3323 now for 5 years, zero issues (change oil every 5K-6K miles).

The Mann ML-1008 is in every way identical to the Bosch 3323.
So I think Mann asks Bosch (or Champion Lab) to make the ML-1008 for them.
The difference is the price ($3.50 for Mann ML-1008 vs $6 for Bosch 3323).

This is an Autopsy of the Bosch 3323 after 6K miles. The Bypass Valve is very good in quality:

PS: I do not know who makes the oil filter for Napa Gold, perhaps one pays more money for the name "Gold".....LOL.

smtippin · Jul 19, 2012

2 things:
Firstly, I was wrong! after talking with Susan, the 'Techinical Service Manager' for Wix who has worked there since 1973 stated very clearly that the filter paper on both the 51357 and 57356 is the same and both are premium fiberglass enhanced cellulose. They are synthetic blended. Also, the 57356 has a higher burst pressure so it is reportedly higer duty than the 51357 I was talking about in an earlier post. With that said, the WIX filter you want is the 57356, which is the OEM replacement.

Secondly, CNN to answer your question, WIX makes the Napa Gold filter. They admit to it and the part nubers are exact. I've cut both apart and they are identical. Comparing Bosch, I've never cut one of those open so I have not seen them side by side. Bottom line though is there is probably no one right answer in reality. Both are leaps and bounds better than the Honda filter as proven in the above links posted by another forum member and they are clearly better than anything jiffy lube will slap under there. If you're doing your own oil changes and using either Napa/WIX or Bosch, you're exceeding OEM. I will say though, CNN, you cannot compare a filter by looking at it at a parts store. You really must tear into them to see the mechanics of the filter to get a solid understanding of the filter.

s

kenny1773 · Jul 19, 2012

cnn said:
FYI,

I have used Bosch 3323 now for 5 years, zero issues (change oil every 5K-6K miles).

Are the insides of a Bosch filter manufactured 5 years ago identical to one that is manufactured today?

I think the question is if the quality of the Bosch filter has changed over the years.

cnn · Jul 19, 2012

kenny,

The Bosch 3323 is exactly the same as 5 years ago. I have been using Bosch 3323 from day 1 (in 2007) and can tell you that nothing has changed. Every time I do an oil change, I check the oil filter to be sure it is the same.

The Mann ML-1008, I am 99.99999% sure is the same as Bosch 3323. In theory I can cut open the brand-new Mann ML-1008 now to show everyone the anatomy, but it would be a waste of my hard-earned $3.50 for the filter.....LOL.
So I will do the autopsy of the Mann ML-1008 after it has accumulated 5K-6K miles and report back in Dec 2012.....

smtippin · Jul 19, 2012

the quick answer to the guts of Bosch v. WIX is to look at their admittedly propaganda laden websites. My work web browser is not supported on the bosch site but going here should show you their filter breakdown. The WIX site has their exploded filter and the thing that strikes me the most (when compared with CNNs photo of a dissected bosch) is bosch's flimsy spring and bypass valve. WIX uses a coil spring which holds even pressure. The bypass valve on a WIX is also in the front of the filter so that if it is used, it does not wash the contaminants out of the filter media and back into the engine. So, in these 2 ways, I find the EIX superior. Again, as I noted in an earlier post, any of these aftermarket filters is better than OEM so I'm sure the Bosch v. WIX debate is more intellectual than pragmatic.

NOTE: I think I'm coming off as banging the WIX drum loudly and I probably am. I like them and have dissected a few filters to conclude (without scientific measurement or using the scientific method at any step) that Wix has a superior product that was designed better than their competition. That is purely my opinion and I could be wrong. I have no affiliation with WIX or any other automotive part manufacturer and ultimately I'm not invested in the brand of filter you install. I'm just sharing my findings and opinion. Sorry if I'm coming off too strongly. I'm used to much more active forums with thousands of members so I apologize if I'm perceived as hyjacking this thread.

s

cnn · Jul 19, 2012

For those who have some free time, this thread shows the "inner working" of a Bosch 3323 filter, including the Bypass Valve Design (Spring Leaf design):

BOSCH PREMIUM 3323 CUT OPEN -- PICTURES - Bob Is The Oil Guy

kenny1773 · Jul 19, 2012

cnn said:
kenny,

The Bosch 3323 is exactly the same as 5 years ago.

Thanks!

I got one as a package deal with an oil change special I bought a couple months ago. It is sitting on the shelf and I was debating just returning it and getting something else.

I normally use the Purolator Pure One series or the WIX/Napa Gold

the only filter I really avoid 100% is Fram.

I can't say I have ever had a 'problem' with any oil filter, but I am always confused when people say "I use xyz filter and I have never had a problem" How would you know? I mean unless the failure was catastrophic (like fram has had happen) and the filter failure caused an immediate engine failure.

I wish there was really a trusted science behind how good a filter really is, everything that is out there seems to be opinion / speculation. Not really sure who is right or wrong.

On previous cars, I have used nothing but OEM (Toyota, Honda, Nissan mostly) and in 100,000's of thousands of miles over those cars, I never had one burn oil and never had any failures. Not so sure that means anything though

My current camry spent 60k miles of it's life on the Purolator classic filters (I scored about 40 of them for 99 cents each) and they seemed fine. My old RAV4 used the same exact filter, and the rav lived for 100,000 on them and never burned oil or had any issues. I like certain filters over others, but price will almost always win with me (except Fram)

As a side note, I have used MANN air filters for a long time and never had any issues with them that I was aware of, but again, how would you know and how cold you tell? (I am not paying for oil analysis every oil change)

I would try those MANN oil filters from AA if the price stays that low. I have a bunch of Pure One filters right now that I got cheap after rebate that I need to use up first.

dvpatel · Jul 20, 2012

smtippin said:
Just found DVPATEL's link to the supertech filter.
** SNIP **

Whoa. DVPATEL's link? I merely mentioned the thread as it had the cut outs. I did not do any research/cutting etc. I had used a couple of STs but then got into a Mobil 1 price error on Amazon and have 10+ Mobil 1 filters @ cost price of $2.50 each. Besides, you are too late for the Wally world special bashing as most wallys do NOT carry it any more any way.

Also, you pulled up a post from back in 2009 and the sentiment then was that the ST was better than the changed crappy Honda OEMs and was definitely better than the even more crappier Nissan OEMs. Also, your sentence below proves that at one point the STs were regarded a good filter as my post was back from early 2009 and the thread I had linked was actually from 2007.

smtippin said:
I do know, however, that many motorcycle forums talk about the US made ST filter from about 08 and older as being stellar, but the new ones are crap.

smtippin · Jul 20, 2012

dvpatel,
I'm sorry man, I'm not trying in any way to bash you or tell you that you're wrong in any way. I didn't mean to make you defensive. I read your post, had an update, and thought a forum was a safe place to share.

Didn't mean to step on your toes, sheesh.
s

cnn · Jul 20, 2012

cnn said:
For those who have some free time, this thread shows the "inner working" of a Bosch 3323 filter, including the Bypass Valve Design (Spring Leaf design):

BOSCH PREMIUM 3323 CUT OPEN -- PICTURES - Bob Is The Oil Guy

The filter in that link is about 5,100 miles.

For those who want to go extended interval such as 8K-10K miles, I think they should replace the oil filter itself (without changing the oil) halfway through. This is because the filtering element slowly clogs up with contaminants and eventually clogged up, then the Bypass Valve opens, allowing unfilered oil to pass through.
Different things have different useful lifespans:

- Oil Filter: maybe around 5K-6K miles.

- Engine Oil: maybe 6K-10K miles (I don't want to get into this argument lol).

If people ask me, then I would say I change my oil/oil filter every 5K-6K miles (50-50 mix of city/hwy driving style). At the next oil change at (6K miles), I will carefully open the oil filter through the cap (w/o touching the Bypass Valve) to see if the Bypass Valve is opened after 6K miles. So stay tuned!

kenny1773 · Jul 20, 2012

cnn said:
I think they should replace the oil filter itself (without changing the oil) halfway through.

I agree with statement 100%, simply because there isn't enough scientific research or information out there that really tells us how far our oil filter will go. You also get the added benefit of having to 'top off' the oil when you change out the filter, that little extra bit of oil helps to replenish the additive pack.

I am going to assume filter details just don't matter that much because plenty of cars have gone 300,000 + miles on OEM filters made in china

The Quaker State 300,000 mile warranty makes no detailed claims about oil filters

Motor Oil, Transmission Fluids & Synthetic Oil | Quaker State

I think we are all confident that filters can go 3000 miles

How far past that will they run effectively?

I usually change the Ody when the MM goes off, for me that is about 6000 miles. I am just making a HUGE ASSUMPTION that my filter is ok going that far

or I am really just assuming that it just doesn't matter....

dvpatel · Jul 20, 2012

Ironically, Honda disagrees as if I am not mistaken they (MM) recommend the filter change every other oil change. Go figure. I change my filter with every oil change.

cnn · Jul 20, 2012

Now,

The $1M question is: This is not unique to Ody but any car gasoline car out there....Approx. how many miles (I understand that there are many variables here) when the filtering element starts to get clogged?

As a "scientific exercise", if someone during the next oil change can provide info on Bypass Valve, it'd be great!

Just list:
- Model/Year (such as EX 2006)
- Oil type (such as 5W30 Valvoline standard vs synthetic)
- Driving style (such as 50-50 city/hwy mix)
- How many miles on the Oil Filter?

Then cut open the oil filter in such a way that it does not touch the Bypass Valve.
Then post photo to show whether the Bypass Valve is opened (i.e. in Bypass Mode) or closed.

smtippin · Jul 20, 2012

cnn said:
Then cut open the oil filter in such a way that it does not touch the Bypass Valve.
QUOTE]

In my experience, the best way to cut open an oil filter to protect the innards is to use a grinder to grind the seam off at the business end of the filter. It will/should be under some pressure so when you grind the majority of the seam down, it will likely pop or start expanding. As such, it is best to expect some oil drainage on a used filter.

s

Interesting info on Bosch Oil Filter (OEM vs Wix vs Bosch)

dvpatel

cnn

cnn

smtippin

smtippin

smtippin

cnn

smtippin

kenny1773

cnn

smtippin

cnn

kenny1773

dvpatel

smtippin

cnn

kenny1773

dvpatel

cnn

smtippin

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