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Discussion Starter #1
I just received my 2002 SS LX. I'm very impressed. Now it's time to upgrade the stereo. Can anyone answer a few questions about speakers?

The LX has 4 speakers; the EX has 6. Are the 2 add'l speakers the little ones up on the dash? Are they a recommended upgrade? What size are they? Can anyone recommend a good model for these speakers? Do you think they are easy to install? Does anyone know if the wiring is already in place? Whew! So many questions for two little speakers!

This is a great forum. Thanks to all!
 

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I would recommend buying component speakers - pricier than the Pioneer 1665s, but higher quality sound.

Components consist of a 6.5" mid-woofer that installs in the door, a seperate crossover box that seperates high from low (also mounts in door), and a high quality tweeter that can be mounted anywhere - usually positioned to your musical preferance.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by schuckb:

The LX has 4 speakers; the EX has 6. Are the 2 add'l speakers the little ones up on the dash? Are they a recommended upgrade? What size are they? Can anyone recommend a good model for these speakers? Do you think they are easy to install? Does anyone know if the wiring is already in place?
</font>
Correct. The 2 additional speakers on the EX are the tweeters on the dash. As to the size, they should be the basic tweeter size of a component speaker. There are several good models from different manufacturers of component speakers. The '01 LX has the tweeters pre-wired. Not sure about the '02.
I had a pretty easy time installing my Polk tweeters.I'd say the hardest part was reaching inside for the wires.
Try Crutchfield(pricey),millionbuy.com,etc. for speakers.
Hope this helps a bit. Good luck.


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-ROB-
'01 GG LX "Lagreat"(with stuff,just S-T-U-F-F)

http://community.webshots.com/album/18601743AkjQIJiKqK
 

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- The two dash speakers are tweeters in the EX, and very cheap ones at that.

- I wouldn't recommend adding just tweeters to your LX as an upgrade. Go for an all new set if you are gonna upgrade speaks (meaning door speakers).

- The dash tweets are around 1" in size, practically any aftermarket will fit up there.

My two cents: if you don't have alot of car audio experience, you can install new coaxials up front first. If you have budget, I agree, components are best. However, I feel you need carefull installation to truly reap the benefits. Tweeter placement for best sound can be tricky; I usually don't recommend tweeters in the dash personally, but some like them there....

-SJ

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DEP '01 EX no-navi

[This message has been edited by shinjohn (edited 10-02-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #5
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shinjohn:
- I usually don't recommend tweeters in the dash personally, but some like them there....
</font>
I agree; pointed up and at the far end of the dash seems to be a lousy place for a directional speaker like a tweeter. But the low, door-mounted speakers (and the rear speakers) don't give a very clear "line of sight" to the ears either.

However, since the members here seem to know so much about Ody's, I was wondering if anyone has heard both an LX and an EX. Do the dash speakers seem to give the sound better ambiance (if that is the correct term)? Opinions, please.

I don't intend to spend a fortune on the sound, but I planned on putting a CD player in this car all along, and upgrading the speakers a bit isn't out of the ballpark.

Thanks again.

Bryan
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by schuckb:

However, since the members here seem to know so much about Ody's, I was wondering if anyone has heard both an LX and an EX. Do the dash speakers seem to give the sound better ambiance (if that is the correct term)? Opinions, please.
</font>
IMHO, I don't really hear much from the dash tweters. The only reason why I installed my Polks there is because I just had them sitting around in my garage.If I had the timeand money, I'd do a tweeter install like Tealphant's for better imaging:




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-ROB-
'01 GG LX "Lagreat"(with stuff,just S-T-U-F-F)

http://community.webshots.com/album/18601743AkjQIJiKqK

[This message has been edited by hachiroku (edited 10-02-2001).]
 

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OK, since we are on the topic of tweeters, thought I'd chime in (again, sorry! I'm probably gonna be wordy).

Bryan,
Even with the factory setup in my EX, the tweeters were REALLY weak. They really didn't do much. After upgrading the front speakers with good quality coaxes, I can't even discern any sound from the tweeters at all; I just unplugged mine, they're useless.

Here's my personal guidelines/philosophy on tweeters/components:

1) Ideally, drivers (meaning tweeters or bass-mids) should be located within a half (or full at worst case) wavelength of each other to avoid phase problems.

2) Drivers should ideally be located in the same mounting plane.

3) Main speakers should be as equidistant as possible from the listener's ears.

4) Drivers should be aligned either to fire directly at the main listener's ears, or in the case of a car, can be aligned in a "cross-fire" configuration, for best imaging and response.

Having said all that, the ideal config (IMHO) is the kick panel install of a set of nice components. You see this config all the time in pro/competition vehicles. Most people don't have the time or ability to do this type of install (unless they use Q-Forms kick panel enclosures... sorry, none made for the Ody!). Also, many complain that this makes for a "low" soundstage. That's why you see a resurgence of dash mounted "ambience" tweeters these days. They are not the primary high frequency driver, they are simply mounted high in the dash or A-pillar and crossed over at a very high F (~15KHz) in order to make it seem like the main speakers are mounted higher. I have not been impressed at all by any use of ambience tweeters; it just sounds confusing to me.. highs coming from all over the place. Reminds me of the Bose "stereo everywhere" concept, which is a great marketing concept, but just plain doesn't work. Recordings are made with point source mics with two discrete channels. If the recording engineers did their jobs, the source material captures room acoustics, etc... It only makes sense that point source speakers are the best way to reproduce sound acurately...

OK, back to tweeter mounting. In my Accord, I compromised by putting my bass-mids in the door, and I kick panel mounted the tweeters. The drivers are then very close to each other, but off plane. Not ideal, but a compromise. I didn't have time during my install to do custom kicks; my 1st daughter was about to be born... Now Q-Forms has kicks for my Accord, I may install them at some point, if I get the chance.

Sail panel mounting is another option, as shown my Rob in Tealphant's install. The tweeters are on the same plane as the mid-basses, however they are MUCH closer to your ears, and really far from the other drivers. This config is prefered by people who really want a bright sound. I find that since the left tweeter is SOOOO much closer to your ear than the right, you get overpowered by that speaker. I used to do this a long time ago, but dislike this config now. If I did this type of install for someone, I'd be sure to recommend a tweeter that is extra smooth, with a crossover that allows as much attenuation as possible. Don't try to put an MB Quart tweeter high on your door, they will blast your ears off!

The next option is the dash; two disadvantages: far away, and off plane. I think this just sounds bad. Very confusing sound stage, no real imaging.

The other pics of Tealphant's install show the tweets in the pillar behind the driver.. I think this is a mistake for front row occupants. Sound coming from front and rear is very confusing..... I'm primarily a 2 channel stereo guy, so don't want alot of sound coming from the back, just some fill, provided by mid-bass drivers w/o tweeters. In the Ody, since it is so big, I don't think you can hear the rears in the factory location anyway, so this point is somewhat moot. You could look at the Ody as really having two separate "listening areas"; front and rear.

The main point here is that I think tweeter placement is very critical; you need to experiment with what works the best for YOU. That's the only way (I think) you will reap the bennefits of a more expensive set of components. This is why for those who are budget concious and not willing to cut up their vehicle, coaxes are a good way to go.

I could go on alot more on this topic, but I'll stop here. If anyone want to know more about tweeters/components/mounting, or anything else about car audio installation, let me know, I'm happy to give my opinion.

Happy listening!
-SJ

------------------
DEP '01 EX no-navi
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I appreciate all of your feedback. And, shinjohn, thanks for taking the time to explain your opinion. I think it is time for me to go to a few car-audio places and to read a bit more (especially on this forum!)

Thanks again!

Bryan
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shinjohn:
OK, since we are on the topic of tweeters, thought I'd chime in (again, sorry! I'm probably gonna be wordy).

Bryan,
Even with the factory setup in my EX, the tweeters were REALLY weak. They really didn't do much. After upgrading the front speakers with good quality coaxes, I can't even discern any sound from the tweeters at all; I just unplugged mine, they're useless.

Here's my personal guidelines/philosophy on tweeters/components:

1) Ideally, drivers (meaning tweeters or bass-mids) should be located within a half (or full at worst case) wavelength of each other to avoid phase problems.

2) Drivers should ideally be located in the same mounting plane.

3) Main speakers should be as equidistant as possible from the listener's ears.

4) Drivers should be aligned either to fire directly at the main listener's ears, or in the case of a car, can be aligned in a "cross-fire" configuration, for best imaging and response.

Having said all that, the ideal config (IMHO) is the kick panel install of a set of nice components. You see this config all the time in pro/competition vehicles. Most people don't have the time or ability to do this type of install (unless they use Q-Forms kick panel enclosures... sorry, none made for the Ody!). Also, many complain that this makes for a "low" soundstage. That's why you see a resurgence of dash mounted "ambience" tweeters these days. They are not the primary high frequency driver, they are simply mounted high in the dash or A-pillar and crossed over at a very high F (~15KHz) in order to make it seem like the main speakers are mounted higher. I have not been impressed at all by any use of ambience tweeters; it just sounds confusing to me.. highs coming from all over the place. Reminds me of the Bose "stereo everywhere" concept, which is a great marketing concept, but just plain doesn't work. Recordings are made with point source mics with two discrete channels. If the recording engineers did their jobs, the source material captures room acoustics, etc... It only makes sense that point source speakers are the best way to reproduce sound acurately...

OK, back to tweeter mounting. In my Accord, I compromised by putting my bass-mids in the door, and I kick panel mounted the tweeters. The drivers are then very close to each other, but off plane. Not ideal, but a compromise. I didn't have time during my install to do custom kicks; my 1st daughter was about to be born... Now Q-Forms has kicks for my Accord, I may install them at some point, if I get the chance.

Sail panel mounting is another option, as shown my Rob in Tealphant's install. The tweeters are on the same plane as the mid-basses, however they are MUCH closer to your ears, and really far from the other drivers. This config is prefered by people who really want a bright sound. I find that since the left tweeter is SOOOO much closer to your ear than the right, you get overpowered by that speaker. I used to do this a long time ago, but dislike this config now. If I did this type of install for someone, I'd be sure to recommend a tweeter that is extra smooth, with a crossover that allows as much attenuation as possible. Don't try to put an MB Quart tweeter high on your door, they will blast your ears off!

The next option is the dash; two disadvantages: far away, and off plane. I think this just sounds bad. Very confusing sound stage, no real imaging.

The other pics of Tealphant's install show the tweets in the pillar behind the driver.. I think this is a mistake for front row occupants. Sound coming from front and rear is very confusing..... I'm primarily a 2 channel stereo guy, so don't want alot of sound coming from the back, just some fill, provided by mid-bass drivers w/o tweeters. In the Ody, since it is so big, I don't think you can hear the rears in the factory location anyway, so this point is somewhat moot. You could look at the Ody as really having two separate "listening areas"; front and rear.

The main point here is that I think tweeter placement is very critical; you need to experiment with what works the best for YOU. That's the only way (I think) you will reap the bennefits of a more expensive set of components. This is why for those who are budget concious and not willing to cut up their vehicle, coaxes are a good way to go.

I could go on alot more on this topic, but I'll stop here. If anyone want to know more about tweeters/components/mounting, or anything else about car audio installation, let me know, I'm happy to give my opinion.

Happy listening!
-SJ

</font>
Shinjohn,

You make some very interesting points, but I'm a bit puzzled by your comment about driver placement distances. At 5 KHz, a half wavelength would be around 3000 meters or 1.8 miles, which is not much help in speaker placement for most situations (tongue firmly planted in cheek here!). I intuitively agree with you that there needs to be some sensitivity to the signal phasing of the drivers with respect to each other for a particular portion of the speaker array (ie, all front/left speakers need to be time-phased to each other), and the front/left array should be roughly equal to the front/right in terms of time delay to the listener (same for the rears). A true subwoofer is not an issue here because the wavelength is so much longer than even the tweeter wavelengths that the human ear cannot distinguish the source of the signal. I think I will unplug my dash tweets and see if the sound improves-I suspect that it will, and your comments about the driver phasing is making me wonder about my own setup. As always, I find your audio comments very insightful and thought-provoking, so keep 'em coming. It's too bad we don't live a bit closer to each other-we could have some fun experimenting with the audio response and audio mods for our Odys (transmission line subwoofer console, anyone?!).
 

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Odyfox,
Ahhh... I make the mistake you just did all the time. Speed of sound, not light...
~1127 ft/sec for speed of sound, so...
1127/5000 = 0.23 ft, or ~3 inches.

I use 3KHz as a reference, which is 4.5 in. This rule is hard to apply in car audio, but something to think about....

Yeah, would be loads of fun to hang with another audio "techie" nut like myself. Let's keep in touch! My wife seems to just grin and bear me, she's used to it. Imagine if I had a partner in crime.... Though Darrell over in Davis seems a not too distant neighbor also very enthusiastic with audio...

And yes, transmission lines can be LOADS of fun.... Jam on!

-SJ

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DEP '01 EX no-navi

added in edit: URL for wavelength of sound calculator, for non-math types...

http://www.mcsquared.com/wavelength.htm

[This message has been edited by shinjohn (edited 10-02-2001).]
 

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Shinjohn:
Based on that long post and based on the current set up of an EX, where would you put the tweeters without using Q-forms? And are pioneer components worth buying?

Thanks.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shinjohn:
Odyfox,
Ahhh... I make the mistake you just did all the time. Speed of sound, not light...
~1127 ft/sec for speed of sound, so...
1127/5000 = 0.23 ft, or ~3 inches.

I use 3KHz as a reference, which is 4.5 in. This rule is hard to apply in car audio, but something to think about....

Yeah, would be loads of fun to hang with another audio "techie" nut like myself. Let's keep in touch! My wife seems to just grin and bear me, she's used to it. Imagine if I had a partner in crime.... Though Darrell over in Davis seems a not too distant neighbor also very enthusiastic with audio...

And yes, transmission lines can be LOADS of fun.... Jam on!

-SJ

</font>
Shinjohn,

You're right, of course-from a sound propagation standpoint, the electromagnetic wavelength of a 3 KHz signal is not useful for working phasing of sonic sources, and I should have thought of that. On the subject of audio techie stuff, I'd love to hear more about your audio adventures/projects/home system/etc-feel free to drop me a line so we don't clutter up the Ody forums with our audio and analytical "nerditry". In addition to Darrel, ther are probably others that share our affinity for audio things-maybe we should ask Jim for our own little off-topic playground!
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kuruma Hayai:
Shinjohn:
Based on that long post and based on the current set up of an EX, where would you put the tweeters without using Q-forms? And are pioneer components worth buying?

Thanks.
</font>
Wow, I feel so negligent having not checked this board yesterday evening....

I have Boston Acoustics RM6 coaxials in my (wife's) '01 EX Ody. I am not planning on installing components. My wife put her foot down on this one, stating she wanted to maintain factory appearance in this vehicle, even though she knows I can do an install that is not factory, but looks like "factory"..... Anyhow....

IF I were to approach the ody on the standpoint of using high quality component speakers, and custom kick panels were out of the question (many high end car audio places will fabricate them for you, but for big $$$) I'd probably do a tweeter kick panel install, or custom coax-like mount.

I'd experiment with the kick first, after having mounted the mid-bass in the door. I looked at the Ody kicks and you can fit a tweeter either flush or surface mount there (I prefer flush, but requires cutting big hole!). The main issue I see with using the kick for the tweeters is that the factory location for the mid-basses are unusually high in the door, compared to most cars, so that increases the distance from the tweeter if kick mounted. This may be OK, but needs experimentation.

The way to do it is use tape or whatever to experiment with the tweeter location AND adjust the mounting angle of the tweeter. Tweeter angle is almost as important as location for response, depending on the component selected.

In as far as figuring out the optimal tweeter angle, ask yourself whether you want the system's imaging to be "tuned" for a particular seat location, such as the driver's seat, or, you want to compromise for both front seat locations.

For optimal results in the driver's seat, start by pointing the tweeters both directly at the driver's ears. If you want to compromise for both seats, start with the tweeters pointed at the center of the vehicle, or "cross fire" them by pointing the right tweeter at the driver and the left tweeter at the passenger. Yep, sounds weird, but works very well for many speakers, you'd be surprised. Anyhow, use your ears, sit in both seats, and listen to different types of music. You'll quickly figure out what sounds best to you. Also play with the individual tweeter level adjustments on the passive crossovers that come with the components. I've seen people use different tweeter attenuation levels on either side, in conjunction with weird mounting angles... Whatever you like is what's best. Note that many tweeters for car audio are artificially tuned for very bright response, because they actually anticipate and intend the tweeters to be mounted off-axis relative to the listener's ears. This is something to keep in mind, and don't be afraid to experiment.

My next try would be placing the tweeter on top of the mid-bass with a custom mount (look at Boston Pro-Series; they offer a coaxial mount as one of the mounting options), again playing with tweeter angle as stated above. Or, move the tweeter down the door a little, near the kick, and then up the door, going as high as the sail panel, to see how response and imaging is affected. Use a long speaker lead at first for the tweets, and find the best location and angle before you do any cutting. Once you've got it down, then you can mount them.

In as far as Pioneer components are concerned; I haven't heard their latest generation, so can't comment. Years ago, I really didn't think much at all of ANY Pioneer speaker, but the 1695 is not bad. Not truly "audiophile" but for $80 geez, it's hard to beat IMHO.

I made some recs to texneus in another thread on some more expensive components based on his preferences, and knowledge of his expectations and his current home setup. Tell me more about what types of music you listen to, what your expectations are in terms of sound quality, and what your budget is, and I'll try to make a recommendation based on my experience. I haven't heard everything, but have heard and experimented with alot out there....

Anyhow, whew. Good luck. Need to get back to the grind....

-SJ

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DEP '01 EX no-navi

p.s.- odyfox, feel free to start a thread on the "Off Topic" area in the Odyclub, I'll check there and we can take alot of the more technical, non-Ody discussions there. Seeya around! Oh, and would you mind posting your real name? I feel kinda weird not knowing.... Mine really is Shin John, and that's what I go by...


[This message has been edited by shinjohn (edited 10-03-2001).]
 

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OK - who elso thinks Shinjohn has WAY *WAY* Too Much Time on his hands???

How fast do you type?!?!? Your posts in this thread alone would have taken me a day!!

[This message has been edited by PD55 (edited 10-03-2001).]
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by PD55:
OK - who elso thinks Shinjohn has WAY *WAY* Too Much Time on his hands???

How fast do you type?!?!? Your posts in this thread alone would have taken me a day!!

[This message has been edited by PD55 (edited 10-03-2001).]
</font>
Yeah, I type pretty darn fast. Not a touch typist, but fast. My wife is a touch typist and thinks I'm the fastest "double finger poker" typist around.... And yeah, I either have way too much time on my hands, or am just way too enthusiastic about car (and other types) of audio. OK, 'nuff said.

'til next time...

-SJ

p.s.- note too I'm a manager, so I spend extensive amounts of time behind the computer typing status reports, email etc....
and I have a fast internet connection, and, uh.....
OK, I'm just a nerd. Yeah..... and I need help.

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DEP '01 EX no-navi

[This message has been edited by shinjohn (edited 10-03-2001).]
 

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No such thing as "too much time on his hands." Folks say that about me all the time too. It's all about priorities I guess. Everybody always has enough time to do the things they really want to do. Funny how there never seems to be enough time to scrub the toilet. But instead of digressing that way, let me digress this way:

Hey audio nuts! I've missed this whole thread until today. Tough to keep up with 100 threads at a time, as you guys know
I won't yank it too much more off-topic, but man, tweeter placement in a vehicle is just a horrible thing. Sound of any type is tough ina car - mostly because you just can't sit in the sweat spot. Doesn't matter so much on the low end, but it sure does when you get up to the tweets. I've never found a place to put tweets that I was happy with, unless I sat directly in the middle of the car.

Mr. Fox - I like your 1.8 mile mistake! Cracked me up. Those little milti-khz waves get pretty darn tiny acutally. Now, sub-bass, may favorite...THERE you've got some big waves to play with. When you get a few hz below where you can hear, the waves are so big they won't even fit in your ear!
They do move the couch though.

------------------
-= Darell =-
2002 Ody EXL-Nav (TW) ordered, but apparently never coming.
2001 Civic EX
 

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Shinjohn:
Holy Odyssey! I had to print this thread before I can reply back.
In answer to your question, most of the time I listen to Jazz music (not Ella Fitzgerald or Louie Armstrong. It's more the likes of Brian Culbertson, Oleta Adams, Wayan Tisdale, Fourplay, etc.) but I sometimes like my kids CDs like Pink, Janet Jackson, Bow-Wow, Nellie (sp?), Aliyah (SP?), R&B. You get the drift.

I also do not want to put a hole in my wallet. I would probably use the 1695s in the back.

Or better yet, why don't I just drive down there at the same time breaking-in the van.
 

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Kuruma,
What's your budget on front speakers? $200? $400? $1000? Everyone's breaking point is different... Give me an idea..

If you wanna drive down, join us for the SF Bay area meet! Will be lots of fun, fun, fun!!! Darell and I will both be there!
-SJ

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DEP '01 EX no-navi

[This message has been edited by shinjohn (edited 10-03-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Wow, this thread is fun!

shinjohn, I don't think you are going off topic. This IS the audio portion of the forum. I really appreciate that you are sharing your knowledge.

On that point, could you make an audio suggestion for me? I won't spend more than $500 for sound, including everything, and I need to install a CD player with that money (it's an LX, remember). I listen to the jazz/rock/experimental/indie types of music. I'm hoping for a nice, well balanced system.

darelldd - the question of tweeter placement is a big one, isn't it? With an LX, there are no tweeters up front. I was wondering if it makes sense to put tweeters up there at the start of this thread since the holes (and wires?) are already in place. But it seems that everyone is giving that idea a "thumbs down".

odyfox - I'd love to hear your opinion about unplugging the front tweets. I think I won't wind up putting drivers up there, but I'd love to hear your opinion.

Thanks again.

Bryan
'02 SS LX
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by schuckb:

odyfox - I'd love to hear your opinion about unplugging the front tweets. I think I won't wind up putting drivers up there, but I'd love to hear your opinion.

Thanks again.

Bryan
'02 SS LX
</font>
I don't know, Bryan-I'll have to run to the next town to hear the phasing difference with a miles-long wavelength differential (he says, still wiping the egg off his face!!)-I guess that means I have to turn it up to ELEVEN just to hear it! Seriously, I have a big mod weekend planned this Saturday (tranny cooler, Kelton sub, fog lights, glove box light, W&W, FIRST oil change), and I will try to do an A/B comparison of the two configurations for you, Bryan. BTW, thanks to all for being gentle on me about my wavelength calculation error-I just hope nobody I work with reads this board!
 
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