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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I've been following a number of threads on this forum for a while. I did a number of searches for my particular problem but I can't seem to find the answer. I have the shop manual and I've spent about 8 hours testing circuits and looking for problems.

Here's the problem:
My wife and kids were going to restaurant and the van suddenly died leaving them stranded on the road. Luckily, a couple of guys helped move the van to the side of the road without incident. I had the van towed back to my house.

1) NO DTC or codes with the OBD II reader (with CAN codes).

2) I'm getting spark. I sprayed starting fluid in the air duct and the van started but quickly died.

3) key immobilizer blinks when I insert the key and goes out when I starting the vehicle.

4) new battery and I tested it- it is good.

5) I disconnected the quick-release couplings on the firewall and to the fuel pump assembly. I used my air compressor to blow out the line and the line doesn't seem to be clogged.

6) when I turn the key to on position (II), I can hear the fuel pump run for about 2 seconds.

7) I removed the fuel pump assembly and looked at the wire connectors and the assembly. I reinstalled it and I connected the fuel line going to the pump.

8) I left the fuel line on the firewall disconnected and again tried to start the vehicle. I wanted to see how much fuel the pump was pumping. When turning the key to start the van, not a whole lot of fuel pumped out of the firewall fuel lines (maybe a couple of ounces). I don't know if there should be more?

Here's the facts:

123,400 miles
changed timing belt at 100K miles
new battery
no DSC or trouble codes on my Actron Reader
key start position II: MIL light comes on, stays lit for twenty seconds, and then blinks five times before going out.

QUESTIONS

In your experience, what would seem to be the most likely cause of the vehicle cranking but not starting (and again, suddenly dying on the road)? And remember, the vehicle runs for a couple of seconds when starter fluid is sprayed into the air cleaner assembly.

It would seem to me that the lack of fuel coming out of the fuel line would be due to a failing pump, a stuck or clogged fuel regulator, a clogged fuel filter (which is part of the fuel pump assembly :mad:)

Anyway, I appreciate your help.

-Roger
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Oh, and I checked the fuses and they are fine (driver's side kick panel, passenger-side kick panel, and in the engine compartment).
 

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Three things to check for whenever a vehicle cranks but does not start:

1. Spark
2. Compression
3. Fuel

You state that there is spark at the spark plugs so that is fine. You had your timing belt replaced at 100,000 miles so unless you have a serious vaccum leak compression should not be an issue. Have you used a gauge to see the PSI coming from your Fuel Pump? Without checking the PSI there is no way to accurately tell if the pump is working fine or not.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Yes, I'm going to pick up a fuel pressure test gauge and a vacuum pump today and test those systems. I'm also wondering if the voltage to the fuel pump assembly may be dropping once I turn the key. But it baffles me that the vehicle will start when spraying starting in the air cleaner assembly.
 

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All indications are pointing to engine not getting the fuel. If the vehicle starts and runs just for a short while after spraying the starter fluid, then either the fuel pump is not running or a signal which tells the pump to stop running could be getting tripped. If you have wiring diagram, try to see if you can figure out what fail-safe mechanism Honda has employed in this particular model which causes the fuel pump to stop when it thinks the engine has stalled e.g. in case of an impact or accident.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thank you for the advise and recall info. I called Honda and my there is a recall on my brake master cylinder but that is the only recall.

-Today, I tried to test the fuel pressure but the pressure doesn't register on the gauge. Perhaps this is because the vehicle will not start? (after hooking-up the gauge, I turned the key to position II. The fuel pump ran for 2 seconds but the test gauge reads "0.")

-I took-out the spark plugs are they are baked with carbon. The plugs only have 23K miles on them but I previously installed the Bosch plugs at the 100K miles. I will get the NGK plugs.

-I took-off the throttle-body and it is "varnish-like." I'll need to get some throttle-body cleaner- does it have to be "Honda throttle-body cleaner (the manual states so)?"
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ordered the NGK spark plugs. I'm going to test the main relay which is located under the dash and I'm going to check to see if the solder points are intact and not cracked. I'm also going to test the throttle-body relay harness as well as re-checking the relay connectors. Last, I'm going to check the fuel pump harness while cranking the engine to see if the voltage drops. I'm not sure if I need to pull the fuel rails off. If so, then I will need to pull the intake manifold cover off. I'm about ready to order the fuel pump assembly...
 

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Carb cleaner works well. But I don't think that's the reason it died while in use.
Was the van recently filled with gas ? I' m wondering if the gas is bad and or if the fuel filter needs replacing.
 

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Also, if the security system has issues, it does kill the fuel pump so perhaps if all else checks out good then it might be the immobilizer system. I do remember reading a couple of posts here and there about the immobilizer issues but they were few and far in between. So, keep the immobilizer system in mind.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Thanks Rockwood, dvpatel, and sontakke. Now I'm not getting getting 12 volts to the fuel pump connector (5P)- this is pretty frustrating. I know I had 12 volts the other day. I'm wondering if I do have a loose connection in the driver's side fuse box/MICU circuit board. In an earlier post, EE4life sent me the recall notice concerning the circuit board but my van was not included in the recall.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
OK, I'm getting 11.86 volts from "Fuel Pump 5P" connector wire "5" after turning the key to position II. I'm getting the same volts when I place a "jumper wire" between "1" & "2" on the PGM-FI MAIN RELAY 2 (FUEL PUMP) 4P connector when I turn the key switch to position II. This is described on page 11-350 in the shop manual and it asks if "Is there battery voltage . My battery was actually charged to 12.34 volts at the time. I'm guessing that 11.86 volts is close enough?

I can't think of anything else to test. Unless someone has a suggestion, I'll wait to replace the fuel pump assembly until I get the new plugs installed. (The immobilizer is good)
 

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If the pump is NOT running, then the voltage drop seems rather excessive. Remember there is no current flowing, so there should not be any measurable voltage drop. 0.5V seems to indicate some kind of wiring or ground problem. Can you measure the voltage at the relay and it that is around 11.86, then you are OK but if it is 12.34, then you might have to trace the wires from relay to the fuel pump.

I do not have the shop manual handy, so I can not ascertain if that is the only voltage which should reach the fuel pump. Is there any other logic there which could prevent the pump from running? Is it possible to keep your fuel pressure gauge connected all the time and watch the pressure?

I do not understand how installation of new plugs and fuel pump assembly are related. It is almost impossible for all the plugs to die at the same exact time to prevent the van from staring *AND* allow it to start after spraying starting fluid in the throttle body.

Your primary problem is the fuel delivery issue to the engine. The bad spark plugs (well, they are Bosch, so by definition, they are bad for your Honda:) are secondary issue.
 

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I agree with the other folks. Sounds like a bad fuel pump which is also more likely than random ECM/wiring issues. Air, fuel, spark are the basics. Make sure those are working then you can move on to electrical and other potential causes.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Thanks. When I receive the new spark plugs, I do a vacuum check to make sure I don't have any air leaks. I also cleaned out the throttle-body- it was pretty dirty.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
GOT IT FIXED!!!!

After testing every circuit, I installed the new fuel pump assembly (built in filter/ regulator/ pump motor). RUNS GREAT!
 
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