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BostonBrick

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
There was a brief thread about this 3-4 months ago. Does anyone have an undated info on when they'll start making AWD models?

I'll need to buy a new vehicle probably sometime this year, and I need both AWD and a minivan. Sienna would be an option, but I prefer Honda...

Yes, I do need the AWD... Thanks!
 
I am very curious as to what makes you think you "NEED" AWD in Boston MA.
 
Well the reason I ask is because the benefits of stability control are greater than AWD.

Plus the Ody with a set of decent snow tires is easily as capable as an AWD vehicle.

I would personally take a FWD vehicle with snow tires and stability control over an AWD vehicle any day. The reasons are the following:

AWD is more expensive to buy up front
AWD is much more likely to need repairs
AWD is more costly to repair
AWD causes some weird motions on the road when power gets transferred
AWD is much heavier
AWD gets less fuel mileage
AWD with all season tires is not better than FWD with snow tires

I am not saying you are right or wrong I am just very interested in what makes people feel they "NEED" AWD. Maybe there is a side of AWD that I am not understanding.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
I have a very long, ~300ft, and steep driveway that 2 FWD cars with traction control cannot get up. That's with a good set of snow tires on all fours on each car - Nokians and Michellen Alpins, among top rated snows you can find.

My neighbors with smiliar driveways tried many different options, and the only thing worked for them is AWD. I agree with them.

I'd put snows on AWD, if it were up to me, btw.

Of course I'd much rather save money on repairs, up-front cost, etc., but if I can't get home, there is no point.

Some wise guy will soon say I need to move to a different house, right?
 
I was going to ask if you had a very steep driveway. For ultimate uphill traction you will need the AWD with snows. I knew there had to be a logical reason other than simply for safety.

Now if car manufacturers installed limited slip front differentials in a FWD car the AWD may not be needed but since there are very few cars produced with that option you have no choice.

Sounds like you will be shopping for a Sienna.
 
Having had the opportunity last year to drive a FWD+trac and an AWD vehicle under identical winter conditions, I can say that there *is* a difference despite what everyone says. Dedicated snow tires help with the FWD, but there is still a difference in your ability to negotiate hills, driveways, and areas that are less than optimally plowed. (read as: The parking lot at my old office)

Not to say that FWD+Trac is useless, but it does require more time, patience, and careful application of power to negotiate some areas without getting yourself stuck. Of course you *could* get in over your head with AWD too. But I had to try very hard to do that. :stupid:

For some AWD is a necessity. For others, it's merely a "would like to have", much like someone having a preference for a wood steering wheel, or a larger engine, or RES. For me it would've been a slam dunk if the Ody was available in AWD. But it took some boneheaded moves by Toyota to help bring me back to a FWD vehicle. Fortunately I live in an area where we don't get wicked winter weather *too* often, but we do get a lot of slushy/icy conditions often, so we'll have to see how it goes.

As for the future of AWD, it doesn't look like this current platform is engineered to accomodate for a conventional AWD drivetrain (too little ground clearance), so I think the only way we'd get it before the next model change would be if they offered a hybrid version with electric motors driving the rear. Which still sorta leaves the question of where do the batteries go.

--> Andy
 
BostonBrick said:
Some wise guy will soon say I need to move to a different house, right?

No, why would you want to move? Just install a winch at the top! :D :D :D

Don't know whether you can wait for a year or two or not, but if someone comes out with a hybrid van it may well be AWD. Of course, it will be even more expensive etc etc....

I assume you've looked at Siennaclub.org? Very similar to this site (I've always believed that you see the same personalities everywhere, they just have different faces on them) but dedicated to Siennas.

Good luck.
 
mejmea said:
Very similar to this site (I've always believed that you see the same personalities everywhere, they just have different faces on them) but dedicated to Siennas.

Good luck.
Actually, if you look carefully, you'll find that there's a small contingent of "freaks" who float between several different automotive-related boards. Here, Siennas, Edmunds... I think I've even caught a few people on the Subaru boards. ;)

Sometimes we're consistent about usernames, sometimes we're not. It's sort of a test. :D

--> Andy
 
I saw a side by side comparo of cars w/2 & AWD on a TV car show a while back. Very clear difference with AWD getting around much better. And the 2wd cars had traction control.

They were mid-size cars 2 Benz & 2 Audi. The Benz were a rear drive & their "4matic". The Audi were a Fwd & their "Quattro"

A variety of driving tests on moderatley deep snow.

Summed up by saying 2wd w/traction control is fine but AWD is clearly better for conditions that need it. Fwd did better than Rwd, as expected.
 
aah the wonders of AWD....!

JMontigny,

I beg to differ on your take of the disadvantages of AWD . I will be looking forward to an ODY with All Wheel drive in the future, I have an AUDI A4 Quattro (75,000 miles / 7.5 years) which has been a truly amazing experience for myself. Yes it is more expensive to buy on the onset and heavier but it has been a 100% reliable with zero repairs. The AWD transmission is the 5th generation version...so I gues s it must have it's early kinks , problems worked out in the previous generation. No problems noted with the transmission as of yet . I prefer the AWD more for the convinience rather than the safety factor . As it snowed hard in Chicago today it was playtime with the Quattro rather than with the VSA ODY. The car rides as if it is on rails on snow-bound roads. You might wonder benefits a Chicago dweller would obtain from an AWD....
Well the benefits are
  1. Be able to park the car almost anywhere with less than 2 feet of snow with no worry of getting the car out . As long as ONE wheel has a grip she is out of any situation.
  2. Audi transmission was designed with 7x24 availability of the AWD. Not to be confused with SUV type shift on fly 2WD -->4WD. The problems usually crop up with these type transmission as driver usually forgets to switch back to 2WD resulting in over-heated/damaged transmission
  3. No need to wake up 1.5 hours earlier to shovel out snow from garage entrance to the back alleys
  4. Feel very comfortable at driving higher speeds at the Interstate
  5. The Quattro delivers more power to the wheel with the most grip as opposed to Traction control/VSA which retards power to the slipping wheel. Net traction speed is slower
    [/list=1]

    There is a web site (Eliot Lim) that provides a rather nteresting insight to All Wheel drive Systems . It is somewhat dated but still contains relevant details--->http://mozart.chat.net/~jeske/unsolicitedDave/legacy/awd.html

    Regards

    Kandiah

    Well the reason I ask is because the benefits of stability control are greater than AWD.

    Plus the Ody with a set of decent snow tires is easily as capable as an AWD vehicle.

    I would personally take a FWD vehicle with snow tires and stability control over an AWD vehicle any day. The reasons are the following:

    AWD is more expensive to buy up front
    AWD is much more likely to need repairs
    AWD is more costly to repair
    AWD causes some weird motions on the road when power gets transferred
    AWD is much heavier
    AWD gets less fuel mileage
    AWD with all season tires is not better than FWD with snow tires

    I am not saying you are right or wrong I am just very interested in what makes people feel they "NEED" AWD. Maybe there is a side of AWD that I am not understanding.
 
Just as an FYI, AWD is not necessarily a LOT heavier. In my 911 C4S (4 for 4 wheel drive) the weight vs. a regular 2 wheel drive model was only ~150lbs more and some of that weight included additional body weight from different body panels and interior items, so the actual weight penalty was probably more like 75 lbs.

We could go on and on about how superior AWD is on the track and why it has been banned from many racing circuits due to its competitive advantage, none of which would apply to the Ody. :)


AWD/4WD depends on the system that is implemented and how that system is implemented as to what your results are going to be.
 
KSKruzer said:
Just as an FYI, AWD is not necessarily a LOT heavier. In my 911 C4S (4 for 4 wheel drive) the weight vs. a regular 2 wheel drive model was only ~150lbs more and some of that weight included additional body weight from different body panels and interior items, so the actual weight penalty was probably more like 75 lbs.

We could go on and on about how superior AWD is on the track and why it has been banned from many racing circuits due to its competitive advantage, none of which would apply to the Ody. :)


AWD/4WD depends on the system that is implemented and how that system is implemented as to what your results are going to be.
I admit that AWD is not excessively heavy but it does sound better in my argument.

Now as to the benefits of AWD in competition, sporty driving or just simply fun in the snow, I totally agree that AWD has some HUGE benefits for those uses but since we are talking about family toting minivans I really feel that performance aspect does not apply.

And I very strongly agree that the benefits of AWD is heavily dependant on the way it is implemented as well.

So my point for a minivan that is not required to climb a steep snow covered hill is that AWD is overkill.
 
In the context of a "family toting minivan" there are a couple of things to consider.

1) It may be your only vehicle. Or maybe one of two, where the other is a low-slung economical commuter car. You then don't have the luxury of having a dedicated "foul weather car".

2) As a security blanket. Some people, for reasons real or imaginary, feel better knowing that when the snow hits the fan, they're going to be able to schlep out in the family van and pick up the kids whether from school, or some friend's house, or even the mall. (yes, school buses run with chains, but have you spent hours in a school bus stranded in a winter storm? I have. It's no fun.) I bring up the mall because once in high school I had to drive home from work (at the mall) in the middle of a storm and had to chain up my RWD hot rod and try to get home. I had to drive over an hour (an hour because you don't move too fast with chains ;) ) out of my way because of a particular "steep hill" that's on the way home that I couldn't get over.

3) Family vacations. Around here skiing is a popular family trip. Or camping in the mountains. A friend of mine just recently got stuck for 7 hours on the way to the coast because she got stuck in the snow in the passes between here and there. More than once now my friend has tried to get me to drive the group of us to a nice skiing weekend in the big cushy van so she can sit back and watch a movie. Twice I've had to point out to her that SHE drives the 4-wheeler now, and I don't have my Subaru wagon anymore. :stupid:

I'm right there with kandiah waiting for the next Ody to come with AWD. It's hard to go back once you've owned an AWD. :D

--> Andy
 
I know it's only my opinion, but here goes....


Honda will never make an AWD Ody because it'll cut into sales of their Pilots.

Which holds more people? - ODY
Which one affords more leg room? - ODY
Which one has more space behind the last row? - ODY
Which one fits 4 x 8 sheets of building material? - ODY
Same Engine
Same Platform

If the ODY evers gets AWD I certainly would not look at the Pilot.
 
ratdog said:
Honda will never make an AWD Ody because it'll cut into sales of their Pilots.
I'd disagree. I think People choose SUV's for more than just the practical reasons you mentioned. It'd be interesting to see if Honda succumb to the AWD pressure from people who'd want it on the Odyssey. Besides, the Honda AWD from the Acura RL isn't so bad....
 
gkkim,

It's perfectly your right & the right of others to disagree.

My only point is that since the Pilot is still in it's first generation, Honda will need to sell for years to come before they recapture developmental cost. Manufacturers will never undercut their other models before that specific model is about to be put out for pasture or starts losing sales.

Any sales (even if it's only a percentage) that they lose to ODY's will hurt the sales of Pilots & their bottom line towards profitability on that madel & hence their recouping the developmental cost.

Either way, IMHO it would be suicide for them to do this while they are still on the first generation of Pilots. Maybe the 2nd gen., 3rd gen. or maybe if sales start to slow down for Pilots.
 
Discussion starter · #19 ·
Ody vs. Pilot

I don't think it's that black or white.

The two models certainly have an overlap in customer base, but there also are people who only subscribe to one or the other.

I know people who swear they won't drive a minivan, even with kids. They like the rugged image of SUVs even if it's impractical.

Then I know people who swear they won't drive the SUV for low gas mileage & safety issues (so far) and they want the convenience of minivans.

For me, if Honda doesn't make AWD Ody, I won't buy a Pilot. I need the passenger space, and getting to the 3rd row of the SUV is just too inconvenient (not just for kids, often I travel with my parents). So, Honda will be losing sale to people like me. Besides, I won't consider getting an SUV till they are more economical and have better safety records.

Will Honda lose Pilot sales if they make AWD Ody? Sure. They'll get a chunk of AWD Sienna market, however.

Will Honda lose Ody sales if they don't make AWD Ody? Sure. Some will buy Pilot, some will buy AWD Sienna (or other AWD model somewhere).

If I were Honda, though, I'd put out an AWD Ody as soon as possible. Maybe it's not feasible on the current platform, but they're losing market share without it. I think minivan and SUV are two different markets. There is some overlap, but not significant enough for Honda to hold back making AWD minivan.

Just my 2 cents.
 
Re: aah the wonders of AWD....!

kandiah said:
JMontigny,

I beg to differ on your take of the disadvantages of AWD . I will be looking forward to an ODY with All Wheel drive in the future, I have an AUDI A4 Quattro (75,000 miles / 7.5 years) which has been a truly amazing experience for myself. Yes it is more expensive to buy on the onset and heavier but it has been a 100% reliable with zero repairs. The AWD transmission is the 5th generation version...

Kandiah
Yes, both Audi and Suburu have demonstrated that it's possible to build a very reliable AWD
transmission. However, we're talking about Honda here. This is a company that has yet to
prove it can build a 2wd transmission that doesn't self destruct. There are slews of 99-04
Ody's out there with self destructing transmissions (just search these forums). Who in their
right mind would trust Honda to get AWD right in an Ody?
 
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