[mztegra]

1999 Odyssey

Replacing Timing Belt.

I first had the Cam sprockets aligned and marked TDC #1.

Then went on and removed Crank Pully (10ft breaker bar) to make markings on it.

To cut to the chase (leave out details of how I got here):
With the key inadvertently removed; I moved the crankshaft independent of the Timing Belt Crank sprocket.

Attempt to realign:
Old timing belt is still in place.
I moved things so the Cam Sprockets and my belt marks are back to TDC #1. I now have a hold on the Cam sprockets to prevent them from moving.

I'm going to try moving the crank so I can get all three key slots aligned: Crank Pully, Crankshaft and Timing Belt Sprocket. My thinking is to get them realigned while the old belt is on so there are less independent moving parts and I don't get into deeper trouble.

Or is it best to now remove the Timing Belt first? Then get the Cams and Cranks aligned? Then install the new belt?

Or is there an entirely better/proper way to realign the whole shooting match base on the current state of affairs?

--brad

 

[mem]

I'm a bit confused by your post.

But if the old belt has not been off of either cam pulley or the TB drive pulley/sprocket, then I would not take it off now unless you have already marked the belt.

Have you already marked the belt at the two camshaft pulleys and the TB drive pulley/sprocket (by using something like a silver sharpie to put a clear mark on the belt - e.g. on the edge of a tooth or valley for the pulleys where those are visible/accessible - and a corresponding mark on the pulley)? While it's not necessary to mark the belt (and transfer those marks to the new belt) it does make life a lot easier.

What confuses me is your statement that you rotated the crank relative to the TB drive pulley/sprocket (if I read that right). You couldn't do that unless you had somehow pulled off the sprocket (which is hard to imagine...). That's not what happened is it? The crankshaft pulley is of course irrelevant at this stage - you'll put the woodruff key back in its groove and align that pulley at the end.

In the meantime, put the washer and 19mm nut back on (without the crankshaft pulley of course) so that your sprocket is held in place (although if won't come off without you wanting it to - and there is no reason to take if off unless you want to inspect/replace the crank seal - and if you are going to take that off you need to mark it too). The real reason to have that nut on there is allow you to turn the engine later (after the new belt is installed, as a check - two full rotations and then make sure the marks are properly aligned).

Did I misunderstand your post? If so, my apologies.

 

[mztegra]

The key to the puzzle is the actual 'key and slot' that aligns the Crank Pully, Crank TB Sprocket, and Crank Shaft together.

The slot-key fell out and I didn't know it. I put the crank bolt back on to get back to TDC after the work of removing the crank bolt. Well the crank turned but the camshafts didn't.

I -- hopefully -- resolved it. I got the the crankshaft aligned with the TB sprocket and put the crankpulley back on and verified all three locations were pointing TDC.

They were.

My only worry is crankshaft is not really in a position where Piston number 1 is TDC. And that instead another piston is TDC.

So I need a way to verify piston #1 is truly TDC.

For what it's worth, my spark plugs are removed -- replacing them too.

 

[mem]

Isn't the TB drive pulley/sprocket held onto the crankshaft by splines? Doesn't that key pertain only to the crank pulley (even though it slides back a bit into the TB drive sprocket)?

But you indicate that you actually had to get the TB sprocket back in alignment with the crank. I guess I'm still confused.

By the way, with the crank pulley off, there is a (better) alignment mark to be seen on the crank sprocket. No need to put that pulley back on and go by the mark on it.

Anyway, best of luck with the project.

EDIT: Thanks to SuperDad for the clarification/correction below. My confusion came from the fact that it is splined on my 2001 (and I just assumed it would be the same on the 1999).

 

[SuperDad]

Mem, the timing gear cog is keyed by the same key as the crank pulley.

There is no way some other piston is TDC when those crankshaft pulley marks align(with the key in). Well, maybe one of them does in addition to the first cylinder, but at least the first piston is TDC. There's no gearing on the crankshaft, so each piston does exactly one transition(roundtrip) per revolution.

If all three marks(crankshaft, both camshafts) align, then you should be good.

The only concern I'd have at this point is how much that crankshaft got turned without the valvetrain moving, or how much damage may have been done as the valvetrain moved without the pistons moving.

 

[SuperDad]

If you REALLY want to verify that piston 1 is TDC, since you have the plugs removed, you can probably take a clothes hanger or other wire and gently put it down the spark plug holes.

Check how much further the piston is than the spark plug opening, and compare that to the other cylinders.

 

[mztegra]

SuperDad is correct on this issue. Poor engineering or not. It is reality on my 1999.

SuperDad, I came up with the same idea to verify TDC. I used the dipstick -- flexible enough yet rigid enough to give me consistent readings. And Piston 1 was shortest reading. Woo Hoo!

On another note. I replaced the auto tensioner. I thought I was ordering the 1999. But the online Honda parts dealer sent me the new style Honda started in 2000. Now I remember reading somewhere the 99 part isn't available? We couldn't get the 99 tensioner to hold with the special honda hold bracket when 'reloading' it. So I decided to go with the newer style.

I hope it didn't mess things up. I'm still not finished putting everything else all together.

All three TDC marks have remained true even though the belt moved from my original belt marks. Yep. A whole bunch -- like 3 inches! Mystery. Was it because of the 2000 auto tensioner? Did that cause the belt to move when the tension retainer key was pulled? I don't know how it could. I might've missed something while putting it on. Though I checked, double-checked and triple-checked and my manual markings lined up with TDC markings.

But through multiple rotations of the crank (slowly by hand) all the TDCs align correctly at the same time. So I figure as long as the three TDCs are consistently aligned and hit TDC together at the same time after all those rotations then I'm good. The belt is just relative. I had marked the original belt and then transferred those markings to the new belt. And then put the new belt on the sprockets in the same position as the old belt. Just because I saw some YouTube video showing it and it seemed a cool thing to do.

Am I correct that the belt position is relative and the most important principle is the position of the TDC on all three hitting TDC at the same time?

Several years ago I changed a timing belt on my Integra and I didn't bother with hand-made marks on the belt.

Sorry for the ramble. My brain is scrambled. Time for bed.

I'm just looking for assurance I'm going to be ok with this project. I guess the worst is I redo the belt. (Or totally damage valves).

 

[mem]

This has to be the most chaotic thread I've ever posted in. But best of luck with "like three inches" and all that. I don't really know what is going on...

[EDIT: I removed the remainder of my post - there was no constructive content, and it continued having the completely unacceptable tone exhibited above. Very poor form on my part. My apologies to all.]

 

[mztegra]

Mem, nice.

Real nice.

Very helpful and so understanding.

I'm happy there are those on this forum who get it.

Thanks SuperDad.

 

[mem]

mztegra,

My apologies. Please check your personal messages.

 

[OdyinNH]

The thread is a bit confusing but from what I read the key may have pulled out when the crank pulley was removed. Here's a picture of both the crank and TB pulley, they are separate but the key goes through both. Good luck with the belt swap, looks like you're almost there.

 

[mztegra]

Yes, that is correct. The key came out with the pulley.

Regarding the self-made marks on the belt 'moving' 3 inches - i read elsewhere that the belt takes many revolutions before the marks go back to original position. I was assuming that my belt marks would be back to TDC along with the sprockets; but the belt doesn't go one full revolution with crankshaft.

Can anyone else confirm that?

Mem, haven't had the chance to read my messages. But I accept. I was a little frustrated this morning after a few hours of sleep. My bad.

 

[rberman999]

mztegra,

It may have been my post you are referring to on how factory belt marks will not line up after turning the engine over (one two or how ever many revolutions of the cam / crank assemble). The factory marks on the belt are for assembly only. The key with any timing belt job, put the belt on using the factory marks to align up to the cam and crank marks. Then hand turn the engine over two full revolutions, exactly. All marks should be as prior to the two hand revolutions EXCEPT the belt marks, ignore those. Now one thing that is very important, the timing marks must be exactly aligned, none can even be a half of tooth off, if they are, remove the belt and start over, if the belt is removed and you start over NOW you can use the factory marks again. One other thing I do is before pulling the old belt off I count the belt teeth between all marks and then double check this before doing the hand revolutions. The belt teeth between the all marks are a good reference assuming the engine ran correctly before starting the timing belt job. Lots of luck, Russ.