Honda Odyssey Forum banner

1 - 20 of 62 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
This is 'kinda' a research project' .
Honda's Odyssey timing belt change recommendation is at 105,000 miles however, I cannot find anyone on this forum (perhaps I haven't looked far enough)
of anyone having a Honda Odyssey timing belt actually fail.
Does anyone actually know of one, anyones failure, personally know about one failing?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Had 3 TB failures into the shop I was working at last fall on a 2005 with 140K and a failed belt and a 2008 Accord V-6 with a failed belt at 240K when it had been changed at 208K, so only 32K after being changed. I don't remember the year and miles of the 3rd. Those all occurred during the 7 months I worked there, so it's a fairly common issue when it is ignored. Now in neither case did they have any intention of spending the kind of money necessary to tear down either engine to actually fix the original motor, so it is impossible to know if the belt itself failed or an associated component. The common opinion here seems to be that the belt itself is not frequently the culprit, but a failed tensioner, pulley, water pump, etc. There have been several threads here recently about failed tensioners that were caught prior to causing permanent damage (heard rattle noise at cold start up and fixed before failure) as well as several threads where people were driving when the engine just quit and inspection confirmed a broken belt. The Honda V-6 is an interference engine, so ignore at your own peril.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
I always use the aviation industry as an standard for everything. Why do they have many inspections, parts replacement within X amount of hours...etc...?... because life depends on it and without proper maintenance then you would have issues. Our daily life and pocket $$$ depends on how reliable your car is, an airline doesn't wait for the engine to quit in mid-fly to change it, they go by hours of use and that's it...not questions asked. There a few cases here in the forum of failed belts, on the other hand you have samples of Odys with 150k still on original belts...but why risky it?. Just follow the 100k or 10 years mark as your standard and you should be fine, always use the best replacement parts available and a good mechanic. Just my two cents.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,716 Posts
Not sure if aviation standards should apply here. What would you say about the higher standards of human spaceflight?

Aviation standards often work so well for avoiding problems with such complex systems because they first try really hard to avoid problems, and then when they occur, they study the he11 out of them to improve the process.

The OP appears to be doing exactly that - trying to get info on actual TB failures so he can understand an optimal process as it may apply to his situation. ... which is what I do. BTW, I don't mind doing TB jobs at all. I do them for fun, so I'm eager to get it all done when one of my Odysseys crosses the 105k mile multiplier.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
530 Posts
Not sure if aviation standards should apply here. What would you say about the higher standards of human spaceflight?

Aviation standards often work so well for avoiding problems with such complex systems because they first try really hard to avoid problems, and then when they occur, they study the he11 out of them to improve the process.

The OP appears to be doing exactly that - trying to get info on actual TB failures so he can understand an optimal process as it may apply to his situation. ... which is what I do. BTW, I don't mind doing TB jobs at all. I do them for fun, so I'm eager to get it all done when one of my Odysseys crosses the 105k mile multiplier.
Jejej..true. I believe that if you do a few timing belts a month...u can get them done pretty quick. When I did mine (first timer) took me almost 12hours taking my time, relax cleaning everything I was working on, the step that got me stuck was the tensioner's pin...holy cow.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
475 Posts
Had 3 TB failures into the shop I was working at last fall on a 2005 with 140K and a failed belt and a 2008 Accord V-6 with a failed belt at 240K when it had been changed at 208K, so only 32K after being changed.
@pkrface do you know what brand the belt/tensioner was that failed at 32k? Hopefully not a Honda, Aisin, or other major brand! This info would be invaluable!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
@pkrface do you know what brand the belt/tensioner was that failed at 32k? Hopefully not a Honda, Aisin, or other major brand! This info would be invaluable!
It was an Aisin kit that was used, but since it wasn't torn down there is no way to know what failed. Based on other threads here the most common premature failure seems to be the hydraulic tensioner followed by either the tensioner or idler pulley. I would be shocked if the belt itself failed based both on what I have seen and what has been posted here.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
475 Posts
It was an Aisin kit that was used, but since it wasn't torn down there is no way to know what failed. Based on other threads here the most common premature failure seems to be the hydraulic tensioner followed by either the tensioner or idler pulley. I would be shocked if the belt itself failed based both on what I have seen and what has been posted here.
Wow that is surprising! Even the "best" can fail sometimes. These tensioners definitely seem to be a weak link. My tensioner failed at 76k and the whole unit (TB, pump, etc) was replaced then. Around 30k on the new unit so far...hopefully another 75k out of this one!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Wow that is surprising! Even the "best" can fail sometimes. These tensioners definitely seem to be a weak link. My tensioner failed at 76k and the whole unit (TB, pump, etc) was replaced then. Around 30k on the new unit so far...hopefully another 75k out of this one!
Yeah I need to get mine done again soon. 115K on the first replacement that was done at the dealer just before I bought it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
658 Posts
From reading this forum for 15 years, failures are quite rare. Part of the calculation is how long you plan to keep the vehicle. Let's say it is 200K. Well, then you can just get it changed once and be one and done and then drive it into the ground. If 300K, then maybe go TB at 150K and only one belt change or at 100K and 200K for an additional change cost. I'm up here in MN where there is not a great deal of heat, but I have no problem going 150K for a belt change. In fact I went 192K on my first '01 and no issues at all - the belt itself looked pristine at the change. Like anything, there is a failure rate of some %, but without detailed analysis, it is hard to know what is actually failing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
40 Posts
Honda should know failure rates of the various components. It is odd that timing belt is to be changed but not other related parts. Yet this thread suggests anecdotal evidence (sort of worthless) that it is tensioner or other parts that fail, Out of millions of V6 engines that Honda has made, Not sure if the evidence of 3 failures is statistically relevant. I would go with the timing belt as the main failure element otherwise Honda would recommend changing other parts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,541 Posts
I would go with the timing belt as the main failure element otherwise Honda would recommend changing other parts.
Yeah, I do understand that Honda sees the timing belt as a scheduled replacement but the TB tensioner as not.

For me, it's a question of economics and peace of mind. The additional cost of replacing the tensioner during the TB job is the part. However, the cost of replacing the tensioner by itself is the same: TB job + the part. (That's provided the tensioner is replaced before it causes bent valves.) The peace of mind is well worth the cost of the tensioner.

Back to Honda's apparent contradiction, it has sort of appeared again in the new Ody where the MM calls for a new oil filter only every second oil change. If I had a 2020, I would bypass Honda's advice and replace the oil filter every change for the same reasons.

Honda designed and built the van so they know it well, but IMHO they sometimes aim for the short term in trying to reduce maintenance cost for the owner.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,478 Posts
Let's face the fact that Honda essentially becomes like every other automaker and desires to make a product (and publishes the recommended maintenance intervals) that lasts just long enough to have the majority of customers willing to come back and buy another when it breaks or they are tired of it. The majority of new car buyers keep their vehicles an average of 79 months which equates to right at 100K miles.The recent oil consumption warranty extension for '08-'13 models was to 8 years/125K miles. Honda is simply playing the game of taking care of their core new car customers, but what about those of us that are perfectly happy driving a quality vehicle that will go to 200K+ with minimal repair if properly maintained? They simply don't care about maintenance related failures past 125K IMO.

In the end your maintenance approach should reflect your goals for that vehicle. Obviously many of the TB related components last to 150K and beyond, but the result of any of those components failing is catastrophic. Better to change them before that happens and keep on driving. I've pushed my current TB kit to 115K and will probably do it in the next 5K. My original goal for the van was 250K, but it's running so well, looks good, and the wife is still happy, so adjusting to 300K which means I'm not going to risk a failure throwing a wrench in that plan.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,269 Posts
I have seen some bad J-series belts that were ready to fail. Deep cracks on smooth belt side. The only issue is that I have seen them on Reddit, never in person.
I have read reports on timing belt failure on this board, but rarely do you get intimate details that make sense.
All the J series timing belts (lets say 20) I have seen looked fine, I mean fine enough where I could say they can go another 20-30-40 who knows how many more thousand miles.
I have seen one or two weeping water pumps. Most hydraulic tensioners I removed had a bit of oil on the seal, have not seen a totally failed one in person, but again, seen them
on reddit. Most bearings have a bit of wear, and are noisy.
Most cars were their first Timing belt kit, and two cars, including my own Ody, I have done 2 on. I have used Aisin kit on all but 2 cars, where I used original Honda parts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,716 Posts
So my interpretation of the answers to the OP's question so far, seeing the forest without being distracted by the trees, is that nobody can report a reliably believable case where the TB was found to have failed by itself. Pretty amazing.

This fits with my careful, skeptical observations after reading of multiple internet forums for many years.

To extend on the observations (of course, MANY internet reports are discounted as unreliable - e.g., hearsay, clueless), it seems that the few actual reports of TB failure (where the belt breaks, disintegrates, or skips) are all due to external problems such as a tensioner failure, oil or coolant getting on the belt, bearing failure, etc.

Very interesting point about how and why Honda would (surely know this as well, yet) specify the belt to be changed, but not demand for WP and tensioner to also be done at the same time.

Keep the facts coming.

BTW, my first ever car had a rubber timing belt with a recommended change interval of 25k miles, which I followed, just as I follow the Honda spec.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,269 Posts
The problem with this, so called "poll" is that we have a typical internet forum where we have the "regulars", who take care of their car and know every trick in the book (aka Muzzler, Aisin kit, tranny service, etc...). Most of them did (or had it done) their belt on time if not before its due.
Then we have one night stand people, who come by for a single issue - my motor blew on 06 EXL, can I put a 10 A7 engine motor? They are here for a question or two and then gone with the wind. Those are the people who most likely to experience the catastrophic failure, but you just don't capture that audience in this post or on the forum in general. They are not here to contribute, they ask their question and move on.

I cant speak for Honda, but my understanding of dealer's approach to timing belt components is as following.
You get a quote to do timing belt, which is literally just the belt. They give you the price, which may even be pretty decent and if you agree, they got you on the hook.
They evaluate other components while they have the belt off. Here you can see full possibilities. They see oil on tensioner, or little bearing noise and they call you that
those components require replacement as well, except now you are paying full book rate and MSRP on parts. As you can imagine, this system is ripe for abuse, and takes
full advantage of non technical people, but thats pretty much how most other car repairs work as well.

I work on all common brand/makes/models and have not once seen manufacturer recommend replacing things like wp, idlers, tensioners. They are wear items, but not regular maintenance
items.

I have seen broken timing belt in person, it was on ~2005 Volvo s80, where the guy purposely drove it without TB maintenance. I dont recall how much over he drove it, point
is, any belt will snap eventually, just ignore it "long enough".
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
50 Posts
If car timing belts break within 10s of thousands of miles after they are due they would all be out of business. Most do not change them with the frequency the mfg. recommends and they still last. Sure there will be a case here and there, but it could have been caused by something else as well, and the timing belt just was the end result. I have yet to change a timing belt in cars I owned the past 30 plus years.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
103 Posts
If we knew the failure rate then we could do some elementary statistical and economic analysis.

For example, let’s say that taking the timing belt and associated components from the scheduled 105k miles to 150k miles increases the failure rate by 10%. Let’s say the cost of replacing the timing belt is $1200 and the cost of repairing an interference engine following a timing belt break is $5000.

Well, the average statistical cost of not replacing the timing belt is $5000*10%= $500.
The cost of replacing it is a sure $1200. So purely on money in this case you will fare better long term if you extend the timing belt replacement interval on your Honda like vehicles.

Of course I don’t know if my conclusion is correct because I don’t have the real numbers. I’m sure people on this forum can come to an approximate consensus on the two repair costs, but the failure rate will probably remain elusive.

Also the above analysis does not account for less tangible costs, like being left stranded on the road with a non operational vehicle under various levels of dangers and unscheduled repairs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,541 Posts
Well, it's a good model, even if we don't know the exact numbers.

Problem is, it's a model. It cannot tell an individual owner if his/her van is on the low side of average, or the high side.

So it's still a roll of the dice to delay a TB service much beyond the factory interval. In the eternal words of Dirty Harry, "Do you feel lucky, punk?".
 
1 - 20 of 62 Posts
Top