[joe.kappa]

All,

I've had the Muzzler on my central VA 2011 TE for a couple weeks now. I've posted on some thread but creating a new one for a larger discussion.

I started with the standard resistor for a week. the First couple days were noticeably better but then the shudder was back less frequently than usual but still there. seemed as always to be related to outside temp, load (slight incline), whether stopped at a light, or stop and go traffic.

A week later I tried the high value resistor and there was little difference. The temp gauge was lower (it dropped with the blue one, too). but the shudder was as bad as with the first one. the ECO light has never shown since either resistor.

Then yesterday the Check Emissions Light and message came on. First time for anything unusual, it has 105K on it. I've not pulled the codes yet.

My thinking is the CEL is related to the Muzzler. I'll take it off in the morning and drive for a week without it at all. By the way, with the CEL on the shudder still happens. I saw someone suggest the CEL being on disables the VCM. BUt that doesn't seem to be my experience.

But my question here is about the overall VCM and heat, etc. My shudder was never present for the first 18 months (i had bought CPO from a dealer) but last summer and this summer it is shuddering directly related to the ambient heat. It seemed to me this spring it was when the ambient temps hit mid 80s and the hotter the afternoon the more prevalent the issue.

But combining this with the bad issues others have and that heat (I know it is the engine temp versus the resistor for VCM, etc.) can be variable. Liek folks in hotter climates need a different resistor but this seems also to be related to the fact folks in hotter climates are more likely to *experience* the issue.

So, why is there variance among the models and external heat. Is there a way to fix the overall issue with a different radiator coolant/water mix? The extra radiator (for trasnmission) perhaps? It just seems really weird that this issue doesn't show when the ambient temp is lower or after an hour of driving on a trip....

Thoughts?

 

[GregGA]

I'll chime in, and give my opinion, and wait for the experts��

First, you need to pull the the CEL codes. They will help you focus your diagnostics.

Second, you had the shudder last summer with no Muzzler installed. I don't think your problem is Muzzler related.

Again, check the codes. Please let the experts know what they are. Did you have a CEL last summer with the shudder?

 

[pappy]

Check your motor mounts. They may be shot.

 

[MrRangerZr1]

^+1^

 

[John Clark]

You talk about a shudder that happens under a load, on a slight incline. Well, VCM wouldn't likely be active under a load and on a slight incline so it's not VCM causing your shudder.

Second, you mention that you haven't had an ECO light since installing the Muzzler, even with the blue resistor. That means VCM is NOT active. If you then changed to the red resistor then you have added too much resistance and your check engine light could possibly be a coolant code and related to the Muzzler.

Also, as has already been suggested, you can't blame the check engine light on ANYTHING until you get the code that has set the check engine light. If it's P0128 or P0118 then it's likely related to the Muzzler and your improper use of the red resistor. If it's anything else then you have another unrelated problem.

It is very important that you follow the instructions that came with the VCMuzzler. To add to those instructions here is a FAQ about the Muzzler that anyone using, or considering using it, should read:

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-2010-odyssey/268778-vcmuzzler-ii-disabling-vcm-faq-s.html

 

[Ohio Jim]

You talk about a shudder that happens under a load, on a slight incline. Well, VCM wouldn't likely be active under a load and on a slight incline so it's not VCM causing your shudder.

John Clark,
I would like to simply add my observation. When my VCM was active, the ONLY time I had an issue was generally on the same stretch of road, or a 'like' stretch of road. At 45 mph, with the cruise on, the van would feel like it was going over pavement which had been ground slightly. It was completely unmistakeable, and I could replicate it every time on the same stretch of road, on a daily basis. I learned this is the sign of a bad front motor mount from a post on this forum. For me, it started at 40k miles. I could press on the gas, ever so slightly, and the ECO light would go out, and the vibration stopped immediately. I know you are saying the VCM would not be active under load, but it actually is until the point where it cuts out. I'll bet the front mount is going bad. I just went through this scenario with the dealer and of course they deny it all, AND refuse to even consider it, until I pay $106.00 for each complaint, under warranty! As they say, I am in the wrong business...
Thanks,
Ohio jim

 

[John Clark]

I guess I shouldn't say "under load" as just cruising at a steady speed is technically under load. Before I had my Muzzler installed and VCM was active it would turn off with any slight acceleration at all. I don't recall it ever being on when climbing a hill. It only comes on when at a steady speed or decelerating. I never ever felt anything in the 120K or so it was active. If you're feeling something in the VCM system then your engine mounts are most likely bad. Adding the Muzzler will stop VCM from activating (most of the time) but it won't fix your engine mounts. Replace the engine mounts if they are bad and then the Muzzler will likely prevent them from failing again.

 

[joe.kappa]

Correct, correct on pulling the codes. And I am liking the theory that the mounts are bad or headed that way. That would explain why the feeling of the shudder (like running on rumble strips) didn't happen at all until last summer.

CEL never came on before a few days ago.

I get the theory on the red/blue resistor but was just curious. I'll go back to blue after I get the mounts looked at.

Mounts something my regular shop can do, correct? Any thoughts on the cost for one or more mount(s) replacement?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[John Clark]

Yes, anyone can do the mounts. They're a little tricky but not that difficult. However, do NOT let the shop use aftermarket mounts. They are cheaper but nobody here has found a brand that will last more than a year. You'll want to go with the OEM Honda mounts. They're expensive ($400+ range and up) but the aftermarket ones will cost more because you'll be replacing them again in a year.

 

[joe.kappa]

Also,

I see lots of reference to the 05-09 torque converter issue and it seems to describe pretty well what I am feeling on my 2011 TE since about 80K miles.

Does anyone have any thoughts about latent or random torque converter issues on 2011s or this generation generally?

Joe

 

[SteveV]

There's actually new TSB's out about the torque converter issue including a warranty extension on the torque convertor. Involves a software update and then replacement if the software update doesn't work.

http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A16-046.PDF

http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A16-052.PDF

 

[ApacheDriver]

My 2011 TE was experiencing a shudder as well. It was hard to discern because it seemed to be related to each shift of the transmission, particularly noticeable in the first two gears. Bottom line was a "service" in accordance with a TSB (free), and a new, front motor mount ($500). Clearly, I (we) aren't discussing these things in very technical (nor accurate) terms, but the anecdotal evidence can sometimes help point the way (or provide peace of mind). Good luck!

 

[joe.kappa]

Well, I did a bunch of reading and it is clear there was a TC issue on the 05 to 09s.

All I can find on the 2010 forward are engine mounts and that seems to solve a variety of issues. The thing I am most concerned about is that sometimes the RPM will just slowly go up and down even with no judder. But I am increasingly thinking the angle or position of the engine interfacing the TC poor and causing the issues.

I'll get the mounts checked.....BUT that July 6 TSB is amazing....I am pretty curious.....Mine has 103K miles so JUST UNDER THE WIRE....

 

[joe.kappa]

All,

After removing the VCMuzzler, the CEL (Emissions per the MID) light stayed on for a few days but disappeared this morning. ECO is now flashing again when it goes into VCM.

I made an appointment with the Dealer for the Torque Converter TSB Software update 16-046. That's on Thursday.

My suspicion is the engine mount(s) are bad and the software is needed. Not sure about the TC itself but that is warrantied under the 16-052. I have 102K miles and the extension is to 8 years or 105K, whichever is first.

We'll see

Joe

 

[joe.kappa]

Well.....

I got to the dealer today and explained the shudder, judder, jitter, shake, rumble-strip-liike behavior. Tach floating up and down in, mushiness of the acceleration, etc.

I said I thought it was maybe ECO related, as in approaching ECO, going into ECO or being in ECO. Maybe engine mounts, torque converter, etc.

I mentioned the two new TSBs A16-046 and A16-052.

Their assessment was the engine mounts were fine and two folks test drove it and saw or felt nothing. They couldn't find the TSB in their systems. They had an old 2012 tranny one but i think that had already been done.

I literally showed them the TSBs on my computer and emailed them to the rep. He came back 20 minutes later with the software of A16-046 flashed and the tranny fluid flushed and filled. No charge.

Driving away the car felt totally different in a good way. The car felt heavier, the gas and acceleration were very solid and proportional, no mushiiness. The tach was rock solid. popped up with gas pedal pressing or on cruise. popped down on shift. didn't budge otherwise.

The ECO popped on way more frequently that it ever had, now seemingly in accord with when I would think it would go into VCM.

I went out of my way from dealer to go to the normal route I take in the morning and it never once went soft or juddered or shook. Nothing even on some of the lights on hills that were guaranteed to cause it.

So, I'll see how it behaves today and over the next few days. My hope is that it is totally fine. But I have the under-the-wire 103K miles in case the TC is bad. also my hope is this has improved the VCM function and that I get the advantages of that back. The Muzzler has been removed for a week now.

In short, if you have a 2011 or 2012 you absolutely should get this software done. I'm curious to hear what others see once the letter go out that the TSB says well be sent.

 

[John Clark]

Now, install the VCMuzzler with the blue resistor. Life should be good after that.

 

[joe.kappa]

I'm interested to put the Muzzler back on, blue resistor, and see what it feels like.

I'll wait a few more days to get a week of the software update running.

But, I'll say I am thinking it can't get any better or more solid than it is now after the TSB TC software. It has been a few days and it still feels more solid that really ever but certainly during the hot months.

Is it possible the real issue is the TC and software? I know there are several model years represented in this discussion but it sure seems odd that at least for all 2011 and 2012 they have found an issue in the software and such that a TC will be repaired under a blanket warranty extension.

In particular I am intrigued because of the need for different resistors for the heat. I am aware of the temp threshold being the reason for the resistor changes but this also seems too close to the fact I was experiencing problems the last few summers but not so much when the ambient temps are below the 80s.

Could VCM be fine with improved behavior of the TC? I'll have another data point if I don't feel any difference from re-installing the Muzzler.

 

[aluminated]

I have a 2013, which supposedly doesn't need the software update, and I can easily tell the difference one muzzled. I wish I had known about it with my 2010 three years ago.