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Discussion Starter #1
OK, the "D4 or D3" thread has become "how fast is too fast to drive" so I thought I'd start a new thread on something similar to the original intent of that thread.

Honda is making a bid deal about the first minivan with a 5-speed trans, I find myself wondering just what difference there will be between a 4-speed with OD, and a 5-speed without OD. I know the mechanical differences between an actual gear, and a typical OD unit, but the end result is quite similar. I'm assuming that the fifth gear will, in fact, be an "overdrive" gear - meaning the rear wheels will rotate faster than the crank. Does anybody see a great improvement in having five actual gears? What am I missing?

- Darell

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Darell,

The current 99-01 tranny is a 4 speed. The top (4th) gear is overdrive. The new 02 tranny is a 5 speed, with the top (5th) gear an overdrive. The difference is that with an engine like the VTEC, that does not have a huge amount of low-end torque, the 5 speed can keep the engine RPM's closer to the torque peak more of the time, making the engine a little more responsive. That's in theory. In practice, we will have to wait for test drives/reviews to see how well the extra gear helps.

Chris
 

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Darell:

For a D5, Honda now have 4 instead of 3 gears to play with in normal gear. 02 Ody could have a wider and closer gear ratio then 01 Ody. You have to compare both D4 and D5 gear ratio to see the difference.

Like Chris said only test drive will tell the real difference. But definately its a good marketing point.



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leather steerling wheel cover, Pioneer 1655 speakers, 1086 on its way
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Gosh I hope your rear wheels are not turning faster than the crank! Based on the 27" diameter for the ody tires that would translate to 160 MPH at 2000 rpm. Now I know honda has not improved the 2002 that much!!!

Anyway you guys should scroll down and read the "Ratios" topic. There you would have found that both 3rd and 4th gears in the 2001 are overdrives and that 4th and 5th are overdrives in the new tranny...

I guess next months topic will be D4 or D5?
 

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The rear wheels turn as fast as the van pulls them. It's the front wheels that are connected to the transmission!
 

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How can the '02 Ody be the first minivan with a 5sp auto when the Kia Sedona, which has a 5sp auto, is already out there for sale?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Great replies everybody. I especially like the "rear wheels turn as fast as the van pulls them" comment.
And of course, gear ratios are NOT calculated between the crank and the driven wheels, as has been accurately described in other great threads. Brain farts are worse when you perform them in public. Can you tell my mind is still in RWD? That's where I cut my teeth on engines and drivetrains, and it's hard to leave it behind.

Anyway, I was obviously misinformed about the whole D4 w/OD debacle. Used to be, when a transmission was described you were told the number of gears, and if it had an additional "OD." I'm not that old, but I seem to be dating myself here...

Are there any mass-produced cars that do NOT have the final gearing in the OD range?

Anyway, I thank you all again for clearing up all my confusion, and late-night ramblings. The "ratios" post is an excellent resource, and should be mandatory reading for anybody (like me) who is interested in this stuff.

D5, baby.

- Darell

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[This message has been edited by darelldd (edited 08-27-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #9
nurbel -

Excellent question. Maybe Kia doesn't show up on Honda's RADAR??? Maybe Kia snuck the 5-speed in there after Honda printed up all their glossies.

- Darell

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The 5 spd on the '02 is over-driven in both 4th and 5th! One of the advantages of the 5 spd is that the 1st three gears can be lower and spaced more closely together. This is true in a manual trans as well, a 5spd manual close ratio trans allows the engine to remain in it's powerband as it goes through the gears. The '01 4 spd. is slightly overdriven in 3rd and in 4th is a more typical overdrive gear. The '02 Ody also has a lower final drive ratio so acceleration will benefit while the taller 5th gear will compensate for it at highway speed. Here are the gear ratios of the two different trans for illustration:

2002 Ody 5spd. (from Acura MDX info)
Ratios :)1)

1st 2.563
2nd 1.552
3rd 1.021
4th 0.727
5th 0.520
Final 4.428

Here are the ratios for the 2001 4 spd.

1st 2.534
2nd 1.502
3rd 0.947
4th 0.608
Final 3.941

Re: Kia 5spd auto-is the Sedona a minivan?

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[This message has been edited by ody (edited 08-27-2001).]
 

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I have driven the 4 speed automatic and the 5 speed automatic version of the 3.2 TL (non type S). The 4 speed automatic feels sluggish compared the the 5 speed automatic. The 0-60 numbers went from 7.7 seconds down to 6.7 seconds. The downshifts are more responsive due to the closer gear ratios. I think that if Honda had simply added the 5 speed automatic alone you would still have felt and seen better response for the '02 Ody.

[This message has been edited by MichaelJW (edited 08-27-2001).]
 

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Does anyone notice the interesting 02 gear arrangement shown in the 02 brochure? It's: P, R, N, D, D3, 2, 1. There is no D4.

Maybe it would bring more instant power (and fun) by downshifting manually than by kicking down...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
ody2002 -

I haven't yet had the pleasure of seeing an actual brochure for the 2002, so thanks for bringing that up. That's pretty surprising that D4 can't be manually selected, as its use would be greatly appreciated when towing on the highway, etc. Oh well, like everybody here says, we'll just have to drive the thing and see how it works.

My biggest complaint of modern auto transmissions in general is their tendency plunk you into as high a gear as possible, as soon as possible to save gas. The last thing you need is to be forced into applying too much throttle just to get into the gear you need.

I really do think the 5-speed in the Ody will be a breath of fresh air, but that it won't be without the typical auto trans maladies. I've driven my brother's MDX, and while it is very nice, I still think it upshifts far too early...especially when climbing hills from a stop.

But there's no reason NOT to be optimistic at this point since none of us has driven one yet. Can't wait to try mine.

- Darell

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MichaelJW-you have an interesting perspective on the differences in gearing!
It makes perfect sense that your 5 spd would feel more responsive due to lower gears in the trans. Do you happen to know if the final drive ration is different as well?

darelldd- Yeah, I agree on the early upshift issue on auto trans., that's why I often use D3 in my Accord instead of D4! Regarding the early shift while going uphill, the "grade logic" is supposed to help out with that-we'll see how effective it is.


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[This message has been edited by ody (edited 08-27-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Being new to this whole Ody owner experience, I wonder if the pre-2002 vehicles had the "grade logic?" Seems to me I read that they did. Does it work well? I'd assume that the MDX has it too?

Like I said, until I know otherwise, I'm remaining optimistic about my 2002.

- Darell

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Are there any mass-produced cars that do NOT have the final gearing in the OD range? </font>
Darell,
Yes. The current BMW 3 series with the 5 speed manual still has a 1:1 5th gear. I have a 97 M3/4, and it also had the 1:1 5th gear. It makes it fun to drive, with lots of close gears when you are driving for fun, but on the freeway, the rev's are high. I wish it had a 6 speed manual, with an overdriven 6th. For the 2001 BMW's, only the M3 gets the 6 speed manual (new for 2001).

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Ah...leave it to BMW to keep driving FUN


- Darell

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darelldd-Yeah, I'm sure the pre-'02 Odys had grade logic too. My '98 Accord has it so I'm sure the earlier Odys would too although like anything computerized, the programming is probably more sophisticated as the years go by. It actually works pretty well on my car and seems to help in certain situations.

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Discussion Starter #19
That's great to hear (that it actually functions as it should). Sure makes sense to have some sort of inclinometer sensor.

Thanks for the confirmation.

(you can call me just...)
- Darell

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The final drive ratio AND the highest trans ratio are what determines how fast the engine is is turning and subsequent performance. To look only at Beemers fifth gear ratio without looking at the rear axle ratio and the engine rpm change between gears does not give meaningful info. The OD name only looks at the trans output and not the big picture.

As far as grade logic, I understood that to mean that was to keep the tranny in a lower gear once it downshifted on a hill, to keep it from hunting. Also to put it in a lower gear when braking on a steep downhill grade. I haven't figured out the logic and whether it uses an inclinometer. May be just logic. I descend the same hill several times a week. It seems that if I apply the brakes harder, the tranny doen't downshift if the vans speed is decreasing fairly rapidly. If I am riding the brakes-such as following a truck that is descending slowly, and speed is not decreasing rapidly,the tranny will downshift. I usually manually downshift for the latter case and don't know if it would always respond the same. Same grade-different responses.

AL

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 08-28-2001).]
 
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