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broadening the source a little could easily capture the dispersion you get from something more like a point/line (fiament) source in the center.

It's admirable that you claim it won't work, but I'll go out on a limb and say you lack the optics chops to back up that claim, as well.
This is very interesting. Broadening the source "a little"? And your example is one where broadening "a little" is actually "doubled"? Would you be interested in presenting your discovery at the next SAE J3145 taskforce meeting? This approach is contrary to what the last 3+ years of standard development has been focusing on. It also happens to be contrary to what the equivalent European taskforce has been working on, and they've been drafting technical requirements for LED retrofits for the last 7+ years. Perhaps we're just missing something, and you simply know more than everyone else, combined.

Let's be serious, here: your idea is a complete non-starter. Broadening the source "a little" or by 100% is always a non-starter. The gradient of the light emitting area is a crucial parameter, for one.

Your post-hoc, pseudo-scientific rationalization of the VLED bulb's design isn't cutting it, but it was a good try :). Thank you for confirming that you are not a source of reliable information on the Odyssey's headlamps. I'll try to draw upon my industry experience and other forum posters' suggestions instead.
 

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It's a 3-dimensional source - with the LEDs, you have the heat sink through the middle, shifting it outwards - in effect adding to the diameter of the cylinder, if you will. You don't have LEDs all the way around, just on two sides - they are positioned shooting outwards, into the cup that is the reflector in a projector beam. You have the line source in essentially the same position in the reflector as you would with the halogen beam - as a result, you don't get as much dispersion/wasted light right in front of the car, and it's cast forward as the projector is designed. Also - filament positioning is not "perfect" - there are allowable variances that the manufacturer must meet, and the headlight designer must take into account - so looking at the filament in a single bulb isn't what you want to consider when looking at a replacement - you want to look at the envelope that filament can be in, which is larger (in diameter, axial alignment, and position) - the designer must account for this uncertainty when putting together a headlight reflector - and a LED replacement designer can use that window of "acceptable" positions to their advantage.

You realize that J3145 isn't a law, but rather a guideline, right? and that even as that, it is not a released document, but a work in progress? And that you can't even view/purchase a copy of their draft? Are you on the lighting standards practices committee? What does the document say?

Rather than speaking in generalities, why not share some of this knowledge you have - why won't it work? If the light source is positioned at the focal point in the reflector cup in a projector setup, the setup doesn't care what the source is - all it does is reflect. Unlike a reflector housing headlight, a projector has a cutoff plate to eliminate the upwards glare. If you take a look at different headlight designs in the reviews on youtube for example, you'll see some yield definite hot spots, while others produce a uniform, well defined beam as the housings do with the halogen bulb. You'll also see that older (and some current) designs have a source that is more or less a large circle, sometimes incorporating a lens of its own - in those cases, the emitter is often shorter than the equivalent filament, and perhaps that's why you get the light/dark spots with those LEDs.

It's great that you can google different documents, but quoting them back without evidence isn't particularly compelling. The empirical evidence - output/distribution from various headlights (there are many, many reviews out there - of varying degrees of formality) - clearly shows that the LED replacements can work for some "bulb" designs, while others don't work as well and yield non-uniformities.

If you can't speak to what the european, or even US groups working to define guidelines, then maybe put a sock in it for now and come back when you have something meaningful to add.
 

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Guys, this is turning into a slug-fest, when it is not supposed to be.

Lighting.

To my knowledge, no drop-in LED bulb design has every passed a light audit when checked against a beam setter or multiple test points for output. Amazingly, some of the really bright ones don't put out enough light in key areas, while putting out too much in other measured points. Evo77 on the Impreza forums has been one of the best sources of getting good imformation on what works and what doesn't for us mere end-users. I've been following him for years.

Similarly, one of the prolific lighting writers on the Tacoma forums (crashnburn80) is an actual automotive engineer. His threads on lighting upgrades (legal and effective) make for great reading.

Most of the enthusiasts on various forums will use basic light measuring equipment to see if one headlight product has greater total output than another. It's an incorrect way of accomplishing this, as the measurements I've seen on various forums are accomplished at only 6 to 18 inches from the headlight using a single test point (versus, say, 25 feet away, and multiple points in the beam pattern). This works on backup light evaluations, but not at all for headlights.

One of my former co-workers occasionally works a police traffic beat. Knowing what I've found, I told him that if a vehicle even looks like it has HID or LED bulbs dropped into a headlight made for halogen bulbs, just pull them over, write up a detailed citation, and see what happens when they pull in to the referee station for a check using a beamsetter. So far, over the last couple years, every single drop-in HID and LED has failed, and thus the drivers were stuck with an expensive moving violation. He doesn't do this for revenue generation; it's just so blamed obvious, notably when a vehicle is turning, if it has a drop-in LED or HID bulb in a halogen housing (free-form or projector). The headlight might have good output up front, but there are inevitably stray beams ("glare altars") not visible to the driver, but definitely visible to other drivers, including our esteemed police. It happens. A lot.

This is why I'm big on spending the money on a proper lighting system. When I went HID for my 2003 EX, it was a no-brainer to go with installing actual D2S projectors, ballasts, and unaltered D2S HID capsules. Knowing what I know now from that experience, the next time I do this I'll go with entirely OEM components instead of the not-so-durable red Chinese items from TRS.

For LED, better yet, if I want that, I'll just buy a vehicle that has them from the factory. Nowadays, you can actually buy the OEM LED headlight system from a higher trim level.

OF
 

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I'm not sure where you would even find information on vehicles subjected to a "light audit" - certainly that's not something done here. (we have plenty of trucks with the light bars on them mounted to the bumper and aimed more or less ahead and slightly up - those are pretty fun to come across) In a projector housing you really shouldn't get a ton of light above the cutoff, which should be pretty sharp (there are what are sometimes called "squirrel finders" that give a little diffuse light above the cutoff in some cars) - when you review the different upgrade images and videos out there, there are clearly some that give very non-uniform beams, lots of glare, etc. - esp. for reflector housings. However, for others, the beams are uniform without all the bonus scattering, or lighting the region right in front of the car bright as day so that you can't see anything down range, so to speak. Nothing wrong with doing an HID retrofit, but those can be messed up as well. Best option will almost always be an all OEM system if one is available for your vehicle.

Generally, in all of these sorts of discussions you'll have one side which is insistent that no drop in systems can ever work, period, and others that think perhaps they can - the empirical evidence is that there are some examples which can work well, as well as more than a few that are very, very poor.
 

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The guy gets a ticket, he goes to court. Pleads guilty or not guilty. If not guilty, he exits courtroom and drives to the nearby sheriff's station, and they set up a beamsetter. If there is no amount of adjustment that will achieve a legal beam pattern, the ticket stands. If he changed out the LED "bulb" for something else in hopes of fooling the referee station personnel, they notify the court that the original light source he was ticketed for is no longer present, and the ticket stands.

It's pretty simple.

OF
 

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I'm not questioning how a car is evaluated with a beam setter, but rather the question was where you would find information on vehicles subjected to a "light audit" to support your claim that none of them can pass if using an LED or HID kit...
 

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The guy gets a ticket, he goes to court. Pleads guilty or not guilty. If not guilty, he exits courtroom and drives to the nearby sheriff's station, and they set up a beamsetter. If there is no amount of adjustment that will achieve a legal beam pattern, the ticket stands. If he changed out the LED "bulb" for something else in hopes of fooling the referee station personnel, they notify the court that the original light source he was ticketed for is no longer present, and the ticket stands.

It's pretty simple.

OF
WOW, good info...
They really have monetized compliance in your area.

There are laws here as well, but I have never heard of any person I know being hassled by it.
except people who choose to use yellow headlight bulbs.
pretty obvious to pick out.

I have 8000 lumen 6500K per bulb LED's (diffused) for my fogs and driven by law enforcement many many times with them on in bad weather or on the highway.
not a single issue.

The next province over they are strict about front window tint, but that's it.

The issue around here isn't people with non compliant bulbs, its morons who forget to turn on their headlights at all during night driving.
just because the dash lights are on doesn't mean your headlights and tail lights are!
 

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The issue around here isn't people with non compliant bulbs, its morons who forget to turn on their headlights at all during night driving.
just because the dash lights are on doesn't mean your headlights and tail lights are!
That is one of my biggest pet peeves. Always back-lit gauges + daytime running lights = lots of people driving around without actual headlights on. I think any car setup like that should be required to have auto headlights (that can't be disabled while engine is on).

-Charlie
 

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WOW, good info...
They really have monetized compliance in your area.
A large proportion of vehicles in my area (heck, the entire midwest) are trucks and SUV's. They typically have headlights that are "co-altitude" with the eyes of an officer driving his patrol car, especially if they lifted the suspension. If it's blue tinted light (illegal in a lot of states), it's so incredibly obvious to the officer that they are the wrong bulbs because the police officer is getting hit by a lot of glare. It's just the unavoidable mechanics of the situation: low seating position in the patrol vehicle, high headlight placement on the truck/SUV.

As well, a lot of roads in my local burg are not illuminated.

One of the guys I know in the local LEO force had to pull over the same guy twice in a week (Dodge truck with blue-ish rebased HID capsules). The Dodge truck driver just didn't "get it" after the first citation a few days prior. Two moving violations in one week is expensive enough; the insurance increase due to the points system is pretty significant.

OF
 

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A large proportion of vehicles in my area (heck, the entire midwest) are trucks and SUV's. They typically have headlights that are "co-altitude" with the eyes of an officer driving his patrol car, especially if they lifted the suspension. If it's blue tinted light (illegal in a lot of states), it's so incredibly obvious to the officer that they are the wrong bulbs because the police officer is getting hit by a lot of glare. It's just the unavoidable mechanics of the situation: low seating position in the patrol vehicle, high headlight placement on the truck/SUV.

As well, a lot of roads in my local burg are not illuminated.

One of the guys I know in the local LEO force had to pull over the same guy twice in a week (Dodge truck with blue-ish rebased HID capsules). The Dodge truck driver just didn't "get it" after the first citation a few days prior. Two moving violations in one week is expensive enough; the insurance increase due to the points system is pretty significant.

OF
Interesting...
Admit lifted vehicles are certainly a nuisance with super bright lights that refract all over the place.
I find the same is true with regular vehicles at intersections when vehicles are stopped on a slight incline.
shines right in your face!

The stock HID on the TE with the upgraded LED fogs are a good compromise, and help road / roadside visibility up here in these parts, without blinding fellow drivers.

I do get what you're saying about the Midwest.

I am married to a lovely lady from Missouri and when we go down for visits, I find anywhere outside of major metropolitan areas to be poorly / dangerously illuminated at intersections.
Rainy nights and visibility are even worse.

I suppose that's why some over compensate for this poor nighttime visibility with these bad aftermarket upgrades.

thanks for the feedback..

cheers
 

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Sir, true on all that.

On a positive note, I see a lot of guys "do the right thing" and go with a "4-headlight" mod where they convert the high beams into another set of low-beam headlights. Since my state allows only four lights on simultaneously, these guys just run all four low-beam headlights always, the lower two low-beam headlights aimed a little low and outboard left & right to get good cornering lighting, and the topmost pair of low-beam headlights aimed like a normal set of headlights. If they fit four Philips Xtreme Vision halogen bulbs, they end up with a superior lumen output in a legal SAE beam pattern that does not blind anybody.

The beauty of the above mod is that you retain full white lighting (the entire visible color spectrum) for your mesopic vision (partially dark-adapted color vision for us mere humans with our really-only-useful-for-daylight eyeballs) without any undue glare.

Odyssey TE HID's are great, great projectors. As well, the Acura TL HID projector has been used on earlier generations of the Odyssey as a drop-in replacement for the Honda halogen projector (the TL projector appears to have the same mounting points, but a slightly longer projector body and re-shaped reflector bowl appropriate for an HID light source).

Right now I don't know of any aftermarket lighting in terms of LED that combines both really low cost and proper illumination. Most LED replacement "bulb" manufacturers will not guarantee (nor publish) an accurately measured CRI (color rendering index), which leads me to believe the average "plug and play" LED "bulb" is missing vital portions of the visible lighting spectrum. As well, many claim a certain lumen output, but do not tell us if that is what the LED chips are capable of in a max'd out laboratory bench-test setting, or a measured value after the LED's have been fitted to a bulb base & power supply. The industry for these is full of "non standards," which means we as consumers really can only buy a set, try them out, see if they work. Most LED "bulb" manufacturers only guarantee "plug and play" (i.e., it will operate), but do not guarantee legality of their product.

OF
 

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Sir, true on all that.

On a positive note, I see a lot of guys "do the right thing" and go with a "4-headlight" mod where they convert the high beams into another set of low-beam headlights. Since my state allows only four lights on simultaneously, these guys just run all four low-beam headlights always, the lower two low-beam headlights aimed a little low and outboard left & right to get good cornering lighting, and the topmost pair of low-beam headlights aimed like a normal set of headlights. If they fit four Philips Xtreme Vision halogen bulbs, they end up with a superior lumen output in a legal SAE beam pattern that does not blind anybody.

The beauty of the above mod is that you retain full white lighting (the entire visible color spectrum) for your mesopic vision (partially dark-adapted color vision for us mere humans with our really-only-useful-for-daylight eyeballs) without any undue glare.

Odyssey TE HID's are great, great projectors. As well, the Acura TL HID projector has been used on earlier generations of the Odyssey as a drop-in replacement for the Honda halogen projector (the TL projector appears to have the same mounting points, but a slightly longer projector body and re-shaped reflector bowl appropriate for an HID light source).

Right now I don't know of any aftermarket lighting in terms of LED that combines both really low cost and proper illumination. Most LED replacement "bulb" manufacturers will not guarantee (nor publish) an accurately measured CRI (color rendering index), which leads me to believe the average "plug and play" LED "bulb" is missing vital portions of the visible lighting spectrum. As well, many claim a certain lumen output, but do not tell us if that is what the LED chips are capable of in a max'd out laboratory bench-test setting, or a measured value after the LED's have been fitted to a bulb base & power supply. The industry for these is full of "non standards," which means we as consumers really can only buy a set, try them out, see if they work. Most LED "bulb" manufacturers only guarantee "plug and play" (i.e., it will operate), but do not guarantee legality of their product.

OF
I feel enlightened...
?
 

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