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Discussion Starter #1
Just picked up my 2002 EX a few weeks ago. Very please so far. However, I find myself wondering about the "security" system. I asked the dealer if the keyless entry uses a code-stepping type system to avoid being scanned by car thieves. For those of you who don't know - unless your alarm uses a code-stepping system that changes the codes expected by your vehicle, it can most likely be scanned when you for instance come out of the mall, throw a few packages in the back and then go back in. That's why I tell my wife to never use the keyless entry unless she is leaving a location.

Anyhow, the dealer didn't seem to think that Honda uses a code-stepping system. That's surprising considering most of the domesitic manufacturers are now doing this to avoid card theft.

Does anybody really know how secure Honda's system is. I read that there is an enhanced security package for the Ody. Is that true? If so, it would seem to be an admission that the standard setup could be improved.


Scott
 

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Would you please elaborate on the coming out of the mall and go back in...? How could this helping the car thief to know your security system? It is very interesting, please tell us more about that.
Thanks.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by lotus18:
Would you please elaborate on the coming out of the mall and go back in...? How could this helping the car thief to know your security system? It is very interesting, please tell us more about that.
Thanks.
</font>
I can elablorate, as well as comment..

Old alarm system remotes, based on older technology, used to just transmit a specific, arm/disarm signal that was vehicle specific. If this code were "scanned" or recorded by a receiver device, that code could be used to arm/disarm the alarm system. The implication here is that a thief with a scanner scans your code when you arm your alarm, and then when you go into the mall, the thief uses his own transmitter to "play back" that scanned, recorded, code.

Most of today's alarms use "anti-scan" technology or what's know as "code-stepping" or "rolling-code" technology. Basically, the remote gets linked to the alarm brain, and the remote transmits a different signal EVERY time the button is transmitted. (there is a pattern, or an algorythm is used to determine the signal) Thus, a repeat, identical signal cannot be used to disarm the alarm. Alarm scanning devices were popular and one time, but nobody makes alarms the old way anymore, so this is not really a concern.

I'm not sure about the Honda OEM system, but I'd be surprised if it didn't have a rolling code. Notice that when you program the brain on the OEM setup to recognize a new remote, you must use the remote multiple times during the learning process. This (kinda) implies to me it's rolling code, but I can't be sure.

Is the security system "secure"? I say no system is truly secure. It is a deterent, on par at least with a cheapo basic alarm. The best defense for theft of the vehicle is the immobilizer, built into ALL Hondas, alarm system or not. IMHO, the reason to "upgrade" to an aftermarket alarm really lies in getting more functionality/features... (more channels for remote activation, window roll up/down, remote start, dual zone microwave radar, shock/vibration sensors, etc.. ad nauseum...)

Even with the BEST alarm system, a professional can take your car. If he wants it, it's gone. Fact. These noise makers only deter the small, smash and run punk amatuer theives. I use an aftermarket alarm on my Accord to deter theft of items left IN the vehicle, since I have a microwave radar sensor. But in general, I use my common sense to deter punk theft (where I park, don't leave items in open view, always remove radio face plate, etc...).

Hope this helps.

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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)

p.s.- I know of no "enhanced security" system option from Honda. Only aftermarket. The LXs and the '99 EX (IIRC - only keyless entry) did not have factory alarm, so you needed to purchase an add on if you wanted alarm capability. Now, it's standard on all EXs.

[This message has been edited by shindog (edited 12-17-2001).]
 
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My mom was wondering about the security of the microchipped key. How good of a job does it do at keeping your van where you left it?
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by poodleluvr:
My mom was wondering about the security of the microchipped key. How good of a job does it do at keeping your van where you left it?</font>
Hey Michelle,
That's the immobilizer I was talking about. Some people say its "impossible" to defeat. Well I still say if a pro wants your vehicle, it's gone.

Having said that, it's much, much more effective of a deterent than just about any aftermarket device you could get installed in the vehicle. It's a HUGE leap in anti-auto theft technology.

I have not seen any theft data for newer vehicles using this technology. I think (unless someone out there has any data to share) that the jury is out on whether implementation of the immobilizer has significantly reduced the RATE of auto theft since implementation.

Immobilizer systems are agreed upon generally as being very good.

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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 

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Would you say that the immobilizer leaves the serious thief with just about no other choice than to lift the car off the ground and move it not under its own power?

If that's the case, that's about all you can ask for.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adam1991:
Would you say that the immobilizer leaves the serious thief with just about no other choice than to lift the car off the ground and move it not under its own power?
</font>
In some areas that's exactly what the serious thief does. He drives up to his target in a tow truck w/a "real" looking garage name on it and takes the thing away. It was popular to hit people going into medical offices - you're never out in 15 minutes and that's more than enough time.
 
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Yikes.

So would you say LoJack is a good idea since it works on a different concept? I sure hope it is, we got it on our Ody! Our Toyota was stolen out of our driveway several years ago (the carjackers tricked my parents into turning off the alarm, but they somehow got past the kill switch) so we're always really careful as to what two cars we have to leave out.

My dad's Explorer and my Civic both have that ProLock thing (I think), so I'm guessing it's a waste of money? (neither my dad nor I use it, it came on our cars).

Michelle

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"Isn't it fustrating how mechanical items will suddenly work when you're trying to prove they're broken?"


[This message has been edited by poodleluvr (edited 12-17-2001).]
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adam1991:
Would you say that the immobilizer leaves the serious thief with just about no other choice than to lift the car off the ground and move it not under its own power?

If that's the case, that's about all you can ask for.
</font>
Honestly, I can't say for sure, but I've seen what pros can do to a car, and how fast they can work. Pros seem to ALWAYS find a way to get around security measures, no matter how sophisticated.

To think that the immobilizer is going to stop thieves from driving off in your car is naive IMO. Like I said, only the theft rates will show if it is very effective or not. Pro theives always find a way though. Getting more security decreases your chances of theft, but it shouldn't be viewed as absolute in any way. Unless of course, you have this....

auto theft device patent


A little OT, but, Adam, I have you to thank for this very pleasant surprise! I didn't even know this patent was completed and approved until today, when I was thinking about auto theft security. Did some work back at school and applied for a patent on an auto theft security device I helped invent. Forgot about it over the years, but it went through! Cool...

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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 

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Discussion Starter #10
shindog,

Thanks for the info about the OEM setup. I agree, if the alarm setup requires multiple presses of the remote that would strongly imply that the alarm module needs to get in sync with the remote. That alone makes me feel better. I just got my Ody so I am not familiar with the OEM setup. How do you go into the OEM setup mode - or is that just necessary if the battery is replaced?

The only reason I was asking was because I would like to think the contents of the vehicle are reasonable secure from punk theives who aren't brazen enough to smash the windows. I agree the RF technology in the key is the best defeat for total vehicle theft. About the only way to steal these things now is with a tow truck or flat bed. If somebody wants your car that bad they are going to get it.

BTW, are there any other programmable features on the Ody that you are aware of. I would love to be able to defeat the hideously stupid 3 minute interior light timer. I think Honda should release new software just to disable this truly annoying "feature". It would also be nice if the computer was smart enough to turn off interior lighting that had been left on. Of course, the system wiring may prevent this unless it is all routed through computer controlled relays.

PS - Congrats on the patent. Your first? I've got a few in there myself. It's amazing how long they can take to get through the system.

Thanks,

Scott


[This message has been edited by ExFordOwner (edited 12-18-2001).]
 

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As an aside - a friend had his car stolen on the upper west side of Manhattan. He told the police officer, "I thought I'd be OK - I had The Club!". The Officer laughed and said it was funny how many people put their trust in a super-duper rod that was attached to a steering wheel that could be cut apart with kitchen shears.

The point is, as SJ says, you can't stop a determined pro. What you can do is stop the casual thief and send the pro elsewhere by making sure you aren't "low-hanging fruit". Hide the valuables, park in well-lit areas, engage the alarm, yada yada.

(SJ - way to go on the patent!!!)

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dMax
(formerly Gettin'AVan)
GG EX-L w/fog lights
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by ExFordOwner:
shindog,
How do you go into the OEM setup mode - or is that just necessary if the battery is replaced?
</font>
There really isn't a "setup mode" per se. Here are instructions however, on how to program a new remote..

http://www.odyclub.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000043.html

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
BTW, are there any other programmable features on the Ody that you are aware of. I would love to be able to defeat the hideously stupid 3 minute interior light timer....
</font>
Oh how I wish this were true... I don't think so. I'm not aware of any other program modes, myself, and I remember people asking this very question before with no answers... I'm thinking/got some OEM alarm mods on the back burner now myself...

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
PS - Congrats on the patent. Your first? I've got a few in there myself. It's amazing how long they can take to get through the system.
</font>
Thanks! This makes 2 total for me now, with another pending. Yeah, it does take a LONG time, doesn't it?



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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by dMax:

(SJ - way to go on the patent!!!)
</font>
Thanks Dave!!!




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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by poodleluvr:
Yikes.
So would you say LoJack is a good idea since it works on a different concept?
</font>
Personally, I like LoJack, but have never had it on any of my cars. I've heard lots of good stories, and some bad ones too (device failed, didn't work, or thieves defeated it). It definitely can't hurt, and is a good thing overall IMO.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
My dad's Explorer and my Civic both have that ProLock thing (I think), so I'm guessing it's a waste of money? (neither my dad nor I use it, it came on our cars).
</font>
Not familiar with ProLock... Is that a device/alarm or manufacturer?

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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 
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LoJack has always sounded like a good system to me, so long as nothing bad
happens.

Prolock is an ignition disabler. I'm not sure how it works, but the
visible unit is about 2" wide and located somewhere near the ignition.
There's a little clip you pull out and take with you that supposedly
disables the ignition system. I've never tested it, but I'm pretty sure
it 'works', but I image there's a way around it.

I can post a picture of it if this isn't a good explanation.

No car alarm for me.
The only thing I'd want it for is to have the
remote unlock. Kind of hard to have remote unlock if you don't even have
power locks!

Michelle

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"Isn't it fustrating how mechanical items will suddenly work when you're trying to prove they're broken?"
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by poodleluvr:

I can post a picture of it if this isn't a good explanation.

No car alarm for me.
The only thing I'd want it for is to have the
remote unlock. Kind of hard to have remote unlock if you don't even have
power locks!

Michelle

</font>
Thanks. No need to post a pic. I can see that that thing would be pretty darn easy to bypass. Most ignition kills are like that.

Actually, aftermarket kits do exist for doors without power door locks. It involves installing solenoids in each door, but I've seen it done. I installed a trunk release solenoid in my Accord LX since it had no acutator back there....

Then there are the car hot-rod entusiasts that take the external door handles off their vehicles, replacing them with solenoid actuators. Push a button and the doors pop open!

All of this stuff is doable. It's just how badly you want it done.



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-Shin John
'01 DEP EX, and I'm workin' on it! (slowly)
 

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someone once told me that in some areas lojack calls get very low priority from the police. that would sort of defeat it's purpose.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Then there are the car hot-rod entusiasts that take the external door handles off their vehicles, replacing them with solenoid actuators. Push a button and the doors pop open!</font>
Until they don't....

("Aw, darn it! If only I'd spent the extra five bucks on the headlights-on warning kit!")
 
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It's a good idea, but I'd be a little leary of taking my car apart like that. Heck, I was nervous when I had to take a dash panel apart because I knocked the "pocket" off its hinges! And I don't want it bad enough to spend the money and time on it. Besides, the exercise of walking around the car to unlock it is good for me.

This car has to last me through college, so the less to break the better! My next car will be nice. I want the 2007 Civic LX (LOL!). I planned it out, the Civics are on a five year run, and 2001 was the last remodel, so the 2006 will be the new design, and I graduate in 2007! I'll work my butt off to get that car! (now let's hope the 2007 Civic is a decent car!).

And kind of along the lines of what Adam said, you like them until they don't work. One time I took my parents to the airport in the Toyota, only to return to the van after my parents were on the plane and find that my fob battery had died! (this was the week before 9/11 so I was allowed to the gate). I basically had to break into the van without drawing attention (hard with the alarm blaring) and then I drove it home with the alarm screeching, reseting, screeching, reseting, etc. I hate that van.

Michelle

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"Isn't it fustrating how mechanical items will suddenly work when you're trying to prove they're broken?"
 
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