Magnefine before or after the cooler?

0dyfamily said:

Just out of curiosity (really), how did you find this 2 years later?

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Did a search with Magnefine.

For the tech part, transmission wear is a slow process. There is very few steel particles that wears off the transmission for each complete oil cycle across trans/cooler/pump/hose/etc. I do belive that the key is to remove as much of that steel everytime it passes through the filter than filtering it before or after the cooler since it's the cummulative and not the instant effect that is the problem. I don't belive that coming out of the transmission, the oil is completely contaminated and nearly useless and that with a simple filtering, it rejuvinates! I'm sure that the oil in my Ody can make many cycles in and out of the transmission and UOA wouldn be able to find any difference between cycle 0 and cycle 100.

But oil viscosity as it exits from the trans is lower than after it has cooled in two coolers. As it's easier to remove steel particles from water than from molasses, it's easier to do so with hot oil than cool one.

Finally, if those steel particles accumulates in the cooler from the transmission, why would that completely change the minute there's a filter somewhere?

So:
1-oil contamination is a slow process.
2-To prevent contamination, we must filter oil as much as we can, continuously
3-If there's dirt in the cooler, it won't come off instantly the minute we install a filter.

i would guess that there's an equilibrum on contamination across the oil "cycle" and the oil itself. I would be suprised to see a dirty cooler with an ultra clean trans. The transmission will slowly generate steel particles. Oil will spread it where it passes. Let's say we change the cooler, oil will slowly contamnates it with steel. Add a filter and we slowly remove dirt.

Thought I'd ask the rhetorical question just to show that our Search function is a great feature! It rocks.

On the note of the topic, it wouldn't change a thing...except you now have a filter, so why not put it some place where it can potentially do the most good? The OP has a higher-mileage car. If it were brand new, I'd toss it on the line immediately exiting the AT, for sure (so it can do the most good and maintain the cleanliness of the the already-clean part of the circuit) but that's not the case here...it's an older Ody. There's stuff in the cooler.

Still, anybody out there who can tell me if a 9-degree Fahrenheit difference is going to change the viscosity appreciably? I don't think it will. I don't think that ATF at 131F is going to be a whole lot different than ATF at 140F, for example, in terms of viscosity. Downstream of the OEM radiator in-tank cooler, per the instructions, seems to make good sense to me for this older Ody. The OEM radiator in-tank cooler isn't much of a cooler. Sometimes, it acts as a heater, at least according to my thermocouple thermometer.

Are you sure it's easier to filter thin oil than thick oil? I'm guessing you meant to say that thick oil will flow with more difficulty, all things being equal, right? The filter media will still catch particulates, hot or cold, as long as the ATF is at a temperature supported by the media (i.e., it's not so hot as to exceed the temp at which we could see degradation of the filter media).

I mean, we install these things for two reasons, as you pointed out:

1.) Continued filtration of particulates in solution
2.) Ability to stop a large amount of stuff, should it get dislodged.

Last I recall, when I cut apart an OEM radiator in-tank cooler, there was just a lot of dark, fine stuff that had the consistency of pond silt laying in there. I can appreciate wanting to not allow any of this to run back to the tranny, should any of it become dislodged (via vibration, road shocks, etc.).

I think one our forum members (theojo) cleaned one out as well, and had the same results.

Any other people who've cut one apart or cleaned one with similar experiences?

OF.

I just don't think that there will be chunks of something coming out of the cooler.

And i think that the filter efficiency is better when oil is the hottest than when it's the coldest.

And I would expect the filter to slowly remove dirt (that could be trapped by it!) and this way cleans parts that are in contact with it.

I trade a chance of being protected should an unidentified/unseen thing coming out of the cooler for a better filtration efficiency (essentially, filtration made by the magnet).

Edit after your edit : I would put my filter after the AT rather than after the coolers. I expect the oil temp going out of the AT when there's the most wear, i.e. under load, would be much higher than the oil temp after the coolers.

I said viscosity, but I guess the chemical bond between oil and steel changes with temp too.

As for the filtration, as I wrote in my reply while you were editing yours, I talk about filtration made by the magnet, not the filtering media. I guess the only thing that really matters with the filtering media is whether or not it is bypassed! The oil pump is a constant displacement one and will provide the pressure needed at a given rpm whatever the oil viscosity is.

Would be interesting too to know if someone somewhere ever saw or had a situation where a big chunk of sludge/deposit/?? broke apart from somewhere in the oil line to damage the transmission. It's like searching someone who actually had a problem with a Fram filter!!!

herrhaus said:

You could solve either of the two arguments by simply installing a second $15 Magnefine filter (one for each line).

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...or flush all that stuff out of the cooler (JUST the cooler, don't flush anything else).

edited to add this:

herrhaus, I think you know I'd be the last to stir up the poop...but from all I've gathered data-wise, I still don't have data to show if the viscosity poser is relevant.

I mean, I've seen well over 200F on the ATF leaving the A/T, and even though our 2002 EX has the additional OEM ATF cooler, the best steady state cooling Delta I've seen is about 18F (10C).

Not insulting anybody's expertise or enhanced knowledge on the subject, but I'm just skeptical...I just don't think that under normal benign driving conditions (IIRC, about 70F OAT, 68mph, no A/C, approx 200F ATF outlet temp, 180F to 185F ATF return temp on my last data-observing trip), I don't think the ATF will undergo that much of a viscosity drop...but like I said, I don't have a lot of knowledge on that part of the equation. That's why I'm asking for somebody to give some hard data. I'm just skeptical over the impact it would have on our situation.

OF

P.S. herrhaus, I'm selling the MR2 beatermobile. Just cannot function with only two seats while my 2003 Ody is down for ATF & PSF cooler installs! I have a minimum of me and two kids with me on most short around-town trips. I've tried it on a trial basis with the '03 in the garage, and it's a no-go situation. That used '98 Ody is lookin' like what I need....

Also, don't laugh, but I've got a HECAT heat exchanger flusher to attach to my shop compressor. Once I get a set of wheels and start tearing apart the Ody, I'll post a progress report on how well it handles the OEM radiator in-tank cooler.

magnefine

I tend to agree that magnetic filtering will be better if the fluid is hot rather than cold since its easier for the magnet to draw the particles out of a less viscous fluid as it pass's by the magnet..

Having said that I also agree that the difference between the viscosity at the point the fluid exits the AT and point it re-enters isn't that much different. AT fluid is a very light weight oil to begin with and no matter what the output and return temps will only be about 20F different..

Now for non magnetic filtering like a plain oil filter I don't think it makes any differnce at all. If it remove particles of a specific size it will do so no matter what the viscosity of the fluid.


I installed the magenfine on the return line because the return line was a much easier location seeing as it was just a straight peice of hose from the rad back to the tranny... I couldn't see a good location in the line from the tranny to the cooler..

Before or after isn't the most important point, just installing one is...

The combination of the magenfine plus a true thermostatically controlled ATF cooler have kept my ATF fluid in great shape..