Hi,
I've gotten myself into quite a situation with a 2005 Touring with 77K purchased 1 week ago. I had it inspected prior to purchase by a local independent Honda shop. Aesthetically the van is immaculate inside and out and is one owner. Mechanically though, I'm worried. FYI, this vehicle seems to have had oil changes every 7500 miles (dealer recommended, though seems like a long interval) and I'm guessing was used for lots of short trips.
5 days after purchase, the check engine light came on. I first noticed the light during a cold start. I then turned the car off and restarted. The light stayed on, and flashed once during the first 10 seconds of operation. (I haven't noticed flashing since then.) As an aside, during test drives I noticed steering wheel shaking at freeway speeds but figured it was coming from the nearly bald tires being out of balance (the place that did the pre-purchase inspection confirmed this was the likely cause). Now though, I think it's a rough running engine at freeway speeds. Also note that the valves are pretty noisy on this car. For some reason I thought it was normal, and again the pre-purchase inspection didn't say anything about valves, so I figured it was okay. Other than that, I don't notice any major rough engine operation. Just some vibration at high speeds, often under load but not always.
I took it to the Honda Dealer that performed all maintenance on this car. They reported:
--
Multiple misfire codes in all cylinders. valve train is noisy. looking inside the oil cap, the cap, valve cover, and cylinder head show signs of oil sludge. engine is running lean. looking at MAP sensor voltage on a graph with the HDS shows irregular movement indicating a mechanical problem. recommend valve adjustment. there may be valve train damage so this may not fix the problem. recommend oil change.
--
I didn't totally trust them (for reasons you will see later in the post), so took it to a second Honda Dealer. (dealer was 60 miles away, and the check engine light did not re-illuminate during this trip). They had a similar assessment:
--
Oil was very dark. retrieved misfire P301-306. vehicle is running rough. monitored datalist and map values are ok .75V and within spec. fuel trim ST 1.20 and LT 1.05. Vehicle is running lean at idle. checked for complete monitors and misfire are incomplete and will pass. inspect ignition coils and ok. removed spark plugs and electrodes and ceramic insulator is burnt. inspect coolant levels, condition OK. recommend valve adjustment and new spark plugs and recheck for operation.
---
Now for the crazy part of the story. The van had a brand new engine installed by the dealer at ~33K. So this engine is only ~40K miles. First heads were put in, then a short block. What's worse, the van seems to be headed down the same path that it was going down around 30K. I'm thinking either the root cause of the problems has never been properly diagnosed, or the dealership is totally incompetent and has no clue how to adjust valves. I'm posting here because I'm not convinced the dealers are looking at the full story of this vehicle and instead trying to treat symptoms. I'm also trying to assess how likely it it that there's serious engine damage. I'd rather not start with a valve adjustment but end up needing another new engine. Here's the timeline, all service done at the dealer. Also, I left out oil changes but they were done every 7500miles (sorry this is so long but I feel this is a outlier experience):
6/3/08 (30K miles)
At 30K service, intake and exhaust valves found to be out of adjustment. They were adjusted. {maybe this was a dealer upsell, then they screwed it up?}
7/30/08 (31.5K miles)
Check engine light. Code P0420 and also misfire codes. Replaced catalytic converter.
9/4/08 (32.6K miles)
since the catalytic converter was replaced, owner complains about rumbling sound when engine in ECO mode. Dealer found rear motor mount was not fully snapped. Engine oil was also low. Adjusted.
10/15/08 (33.5K miles)
rumbling noise and tapping noise came back. Noise was traced to valve train. “remove the valve covers to access to the valves. Found the bank 1 camshaft rocker arm and rod. Adjusted the valves according to spec. road tested. The vehicle okay now”
11/05/08 (33.9K miles)
engine making a loud noise at idle. “remove front cylinder head valve cover. Inspected valve clearance and readjusted valves. Cylinder head camshaft movement within cam tower. Recommend replace cylinder head. Replaced front cylinder head and timing belt tensioner.”
1/2/09 (35K miles)
engine louder than normal. Found Camshaft movement in casting. Replaced other cylinder head. Readjusted valves. Also replaced #1 and #3 spark plug tube seals due to leakage.
5/13/09 (37K miles)
continued engine misfire. Noisy valve train. Adjusted valve does not change condition. Technical assistance recommend new short block. New short block installed.
1/28/11 (54K)
Engine smoking. Found v-tech solenoid-oil pressure switch loose, leaking oil onto engine. Replaced o-ring and retorqued the pressure switch to spec.
6/13/11 (57K)
transmission fluid drain and fill. Brake fluid exchange. Power steering fluid exchange. 30K service.
1/9/12 (62K)
brakes.
A/C not working. replaced condenser fan replaced.
2/24/12 (63K)
This done at an independent shop:
A/C still not working. Installed new A/C compressor and clutch
9/27/12 (70K)
Check engine light on intermittently. Codes indicate need to replace (again) cat converters and O2 sensor. Instead, computer was updated and light went off. (software updates 123505, 123092)
11/21/12 (72K)
check engine light again. Retrieved code for cat converter and O2 sensor (again). Code P0420 and P0430. Replaced cat converters on banks 1&2.
12/31/12 (73.5K)
replace timing belt and water pump (based on vehicle age). Timing belt tensioner found leaking so also replaced.
4/27/13 (77K)
Replaced front and rear motor mounts (found broken during last service)
---
Then I took ownership, and the check engine light with misfires comes on within 5 days. Why did I buy this vehicle? I have no idea in retrospect. I guess because it had low miles, is aesthetically in perfect shape, and passed the pre-purchase inspection. What is going on with this car?! Could there be a root cause that nobody is addressing? I've been combing over the forums trying to come up with a theory but can't come up with anything cohesive. Is a valve adjustment going to do anything or start me down a never-ending road? I thought tight valves cause misfire, while these are noisy and therefore loose. Is something causing the engine to run lean and therefore hot, basically ruining everything from the valves to the cat (starting at 30K)? At 77K this car seems to be headed for a path that began at around 30K.
Any ideas are appreciated!
I've gotten myself into quite a situation with a 2005 Touring with 77K purchased 1 week ago. I had it inspected prior to purchase by a local independent Honda shop. Aesthetically the van is immaculate inside and out and is one owner. Mechanically though, I'm worried. FYI, this vehicle seems to have had oil changes every 7500 miles (dealer recommended, though seems like a long interval) and I'm guessing was used for lots of short trips.
5 days after purchase, the check engine light came on. I first noticed the light during a cold start. I then turned the car off and restarted. The light stayed on, and flashed once during the first 10 seconds of operation. (I haven't noticed flashing since then.) As an aside, during test drives I noticed steering wheel shaking at freeway speeds but figured it was coming from the nearly bald tires being out of balance (the place that did the pre-purchase inspection confirmed this was the likely cause). Now though, I think it's a rough running engine at freeway speeds. Also note that the valves are pretty noisy on this car. For some reason I thought it was normal, and again the pre-purchase inspection didn't say anything about valves, so I figured it was okay. Other than that, I don't notice any major rough engine operation. Just some vibration at high speeds, often under load but not always.
I took it to the Honda Dealer that performed all maintenance on this car. They reported:
--
Multiple misfire codes in all cylinders. valve train is noisy. looking inside the oil cap, the cap, valve cover, and cylinder head show signs of oil sludge. engine is running lean. looking at MAP sensor voltage on a graph with the HDS shows irregular movement indicating a mechanical problem. recommend valve adjustment. there may be valve train damage so this may not fix the problem. recommend oil change.
--
I didn't totally trust them (for reasons you will see later in the post), so took it to a second Honda Dealer. (dealer was 60 miles away, and the check engine light did not re-illuminate during this trip). They had a similar assessment:
--
Oil was very dark. retrieved misfire P301-306. vehicle is running rough. monitored datalist and map values are ok .75V and within spec. fuel trim ST 1.20 and LT 1.05. Vehicle is running lean at idle. checked for complete monitors and misfire are incomplete and will pass. inspect ignition coils and ok. removed spark plugs and electrodes and ceramic insulator is burnt. inspect coolant levels, condition OK. recommend valve adjustment and new spark plugs and recheck for operation.
---
Now for the crazy part of the story. The van had a brand new engine installed by the dealer at ~33K. So this engine is only ~40K miles. First heads were put in, then a short block. What's worse, the van seems to be headed down the same path that it was going down around 30K. I'm thinking either the root cause of the problems has never been properly diagnosed, or the dealership is totally incompetent and has no clue how to adjust valves. I'm posting here because I'm not convinced the dealers are looking at the full story of this vehicle and instead trying to treat symptoms. I'm also trying to assess how likely it it that there's serious engine damage. I'd rather not start with a valve adjustment but end up needing another new engine. Here's the timeline, all service done at the dealer. Also, I left out oil changes but they were done every 7500miles (sorry this is so long but I feel this is a outlier experience):
6/3/08 (30K miles)
At 30K service, intake and exhaust valves found to be out of adjustment. They were adjusted. {maybe this was a dealer upsell, then they screwed it up?}
7/30/08 (31.5K miles)
Check engine light. Code P0420 and also misfire codes. Replaced catalytic converter.
9/4/08 (32.6K miles)
since the catalytic converter was replaced, owner complains about rumbling sound when engine in ECO mode. Dealer found rear motor mount was not fully snapped. Engine oil was also low. Adjusted.
10/15/08 (33.5K miles)
rumbling noise and tapping noise came back. Noise was traced to valve train. “remove the valve covers to access to the valves. Found the bank 1 camshaft rocker arm and rod. Adjusted the valves according to spec. road tested. The vehicle okay now”
11/05/08 (33.9K miles)
engine making a loud noise at idle. “remove front cylinder head valve cover. Inspected valve clearance and readjusted valves. Cylinder head camshaft movement within cam tower. Recommend replace cylinder head. Replaced front cylinder head and timing belt tensioner.”
1/2/09 (35K miles)
engine louder than normal. Found Camshaft movement in casting. Replaced other cylinder head. Readjusted valves. Also replaced #1 and #3 spark plug tube seals due to leakage.
5/13/09 (37K miles)
continued engine misfire. Noisy valve train. Adjusted valve does not change condition. Technical assistance recommend new short block. New short block installed.
1/28/11 (54K)
Engine smoking. Found v-tech solenoid-oil pressure switch loose, leaking oil onto engine. Replaced o-ring and retorqued the pressure switch to spec.
6/13/11 (57K)
transmission fluid drain and fill. Brake fluid exchange. Power steering fluid exchange. 30K service.
1/9/12 (62K)
brakes.
A/C not working. replaced condenser fan replaced.
2/24/12 (63K)
This done at an independent shop:
A/C still not working. Installed new A/C compressor and clutch
9/27/12 (70K)
Check engine light on intermittently. Codes indicate need to replace (again) cat converters and O2 sensor. Instead, computer was updated and light went off. (software updates 123505, 123092)
11/21/12 (72K)
check engine light again. Retrieved code for cat converter and O2 sensor (again). Code P0420 and P0430. Replaced cat converters on banks 1&2.
12/31/12 (73.5K)
replace timing belt and water pump (based on vehicle age). Timing belt tensioner found leaking so also replaced.
4/27/13 (77K)
Replaced front and rear motor mounts (found broken during last service)
---
Then I took ownership, and the check engine light with misfires comes on within 5 days. Why did I buy this vehicle? I have no idea in retrospect. I guess because it had low miles, is aesthetically in perfect shape, and passed the pre-purchase inspection. What is going on with this car?! Could there be a root cause that nobody is addressing? I've been combing over the forums trying to come up with a theory but can't come up with anything cohesive. Is a valve adjustment going to do anything or start me down a never-ending road? I thought tight valves cause misfire, while these are noisy and therefore loose. Is something causing the engine to run lean and therefore hot, basically ruining everything from the valves to the cat (starting at 30K)? At 77K this car seems to be headed for a path that began at around 30K.
Any ideas are appreciated!
