Honda Odyssey Forum banner

1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Help! I'm an idiot....I think. Did I break something?

I was cleaning throttle body with a toothbrush on my 05 Odyssey Ex-L. I had some bricks on gas pedal to open up throttle plate. I sprayed throttle body cleaner all inside the throttle body and I brushed all the carbon gunk out of throttle body with a tooth brush. I think I sprayed and brushed where the plate pivots too which may have been a mistake???

I also sprayed up from throttle body into the opening where the MAP sensor was connected. Unfortunately, I probably should have removed MAP sensor from throttle body before doing this. I only had it disconnected.

Since my air intake hose was cracked, I also installed a new one.. When I started up engine, the P108 check engine light was on with the VSA lights (in addition to some old p402 code).

I had left the MAP sensor disconnected. Once I connected it back, the VSA lights went off, but the P108 code has stayed.

I tried to do an idle re-learn by pulling PCM fuse, then turning ignition ON for 2 secs, 3k rpm till fan comes on, then idle for 5-10 mins.

Did I possibly fry the MAP sensor or mess up the throttle body valve?
Or is there some kind of throttle body/MAP sensor recalibration that needs to be done?

Or do have a leak or loose connection on the hose where I didn't tighten up properly. Shouldn't MAP sensor be insensitive to this anyhow?

It still drives as before but now I have a P108 code after cleaning throttle body.

I'm worried now that I killed the MAP or damaged the throttle body valve?



Help!

thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,292 Posts
I would try removing the MAP sensor and see what's up with it - maybe it got coated with crud, or still has some liquid cleaner in it or something like that. also - when you remove it you can see if the passage is fouled/filled with gunk.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
I think your MAP engine code was caused when you started the engine with it disconnected. I think now that it is connected it will clear on its own in a few days. The bigger issue is that because you touched the throttle you have to do the throttle relearn procedure which requires a 2-way code reader such as the Foxwell NT 510/520. Doing what you tried by pulling a fuse will not accomplish this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I removed the MAP sensor but it looked clean. I had previously cleaned it with MAP cleaner a week ago. But then yesterday I went in and cleaned the throttle body. I sprayed up from the inside of the throttle body where the hole for the MAP was. I also sprayed inside the throttle body and toothbrushed carbon build up on inside where throttle plate touches body.

Do you think that could have damaged the MAP if some of the throttle body cleaner got onto it?

Scott, so even if I pull battery power, reset the fault code (which I did with my torque pro app), then do the idle relearn (on 2 secs, rev 2k rpm till fan comes on, idle for 10 mins), that won't do a throttle relearn?

I reset the fault code p108 with the torque pro app already, but the MAP p108 came back.

My MAP timing diagrams on the scanner seem correlated with the throttle position spikes.

So does it seem more a re-calibration I need to do now? Can I only do that at the dealer or will any mechanic shop have that scanner?
151447
151448
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
I do not know if some doing the throttle relearn will resolve your sensor issue or not. But I think you need to have this done regardless since you moved the throttle plate. I do not think the technique you described and did will achieve this. I would not go to a dealer to have it done. I recommend you invest in a Foxwell NT510 bidirectional scanner. It is a great tool. I see that Amazon has it for $14 off (with coupon) of the regular $179 price. If you order make sure you get the Honda version. This scanner will do the throttle relearn and much more.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Scott, so I didn't actually move the throttle plate.

I had key in on position, then while in park, I put two bricks on the gas pedal to open the throttle valve. That way, I wasn't forcing up an electronically controlled throttle.

I brushed away the gunk after spraying the throttle body cleaner.

Fortunately, the MAP check engine light has gone away - after I removed the MAP sensor again, then reinstalled it. I also re-tightened up the new air intake hose so that might have been the cause....not sure. Not all monitors are ready so hopefully P108 doesn't show up again once everything is ready.

Still, are you saying that anytime I clean the throttle body, I need to do that reset with the bidirectional scanner? Even if I opened throttle plate by pressing gas pedal, it still needs to be recalibrated?

I've also been trying to reset PCM to do idle re-learn for short term and long term fuel trims. I've been trying the pull battery and/or fuse, with the engine on 2 secs, rev to 2k rpm until fan comes on, then idle 5+ mins. However, I was unsure if it was resetting or not as Honda mentions that bidrectional scanner.

Is there no workaround to avoid needing to purchase a bidirectional scanner? Or is that the only way to do a Honda PCM Reset?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,292 Posts
you don't need a bidirectional tool to do the PCM idle relearn procedure - it's pretty straightforward. Reset the system, then turn the ignition switch to on for 2 seconds, then start the engine and hold the engine speed at 3k rpm in P or N until the radiator fan comes on (or the coolant reaches 194F). then let the van idle for 5 minutes with the throttle closed (for the 5 minutes, don't count any time when the cooling fan is running)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
DrD, I may have my terminology mixed up.

Is there a difference between a "Throttle Re-learn" vs "Idle Re-learn" vs "PCM Reset"?

I assumed I could do a PCM reset by pulling battery or fuse to PCM.

Then if I wanted to do a "Throttle relearn" or a "PCM Idle Relearn", I thought I could do the procedure you mentioned. (That is what I've been doing - although I can't really tell if it has worked or not. On a separate issue, I was trying to reset short term and long term trims after replacing O2 sensors, so I was trying to do the PCM Idle relearn with the procedure you followed).

Marvin mentioned possibly needing to do a "Throttle relearn" after cleaning throttle body and MAP sensor. I just pulled battery, PCM fuse and did the same "PCM Idle Relearn" procedure, but its unclear whether that actually works for a "Throttle Relearn".

Is that the same thing or different than what Marvin was mentioning needed a bidirectional scanner? Apologies for my confusion about the wording.

Also, if I want to reset fuel trims, is that the same as "PCM Idle relearn" too?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,292 Posts
I don't believe there is a "throttle relearn" procedure - the service manual calls for the PCM idle relearn procedure whenever you replace, update, or reset the PCM, replace or clean the throttle body, or disassemble the engine or transmission. I did find mention of going into the throttle position check and clearing the learned value before doing the idle relearn, but that is only in the manual I have for the 4th gen, and not in the 3rd gen Odyssey. The PCM relearn is the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Ok thanks... but to do a PCM reset, can that be done just by pulling battery and/or fuse? I have done the idle relearn procedure that you described, but I wasn't sure if pulling battery and/or fuse will reset the PCM.

thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Help! I'm an idiot....I think. Did I break something?

I was cleaning throttle body with a toothbrush on my 05 Odyssey Ex-L. I had some bricks on gas pedal to open up throttle plate. I sprayed throttle body cleaner all inside the throttle body and I brushed all the carbon gunk out of throttle body with a tooth brush. I think I sprayed and brushed where the plate pivots too which may have been a mistake???

I also sprayed up from throttle body into the opening where the MAP sensor was connected. Unfortunately, I probably should have removed MAP sensor from throttle body before doing this. I only had it disconnected.

Since my air intake hose was cracked, I also installed a new one.. When I started up engine, the P108 check engine light was on with the VSA lights (in addition to some old p402 code).

I had left the MAP sensor disconnected. Once I connected it back, the VSA lights went off, but the P108 code has stayed.

I tried to do an idle re-learn by pulling PCM fuse, then turning ignition ON for 2 secs, 3k rpm till fan comes on, then idle for 5-10 mins.

Did I possibly fry the MAP sensor or mess up the throttle body valve?
Or is there some kind of throttle body/MAP sensor recalibration that needs to be done?

Or do have a leak or loose connection on the hose where I didn't tighten up properly. Shouldn't MAP sensor be insensitive to this anyhow?

It still drives as before but now I have a P108 code after cleaning throttle body.

I'm worried now that I killed the MAP or damaged the throttle body valve?



Help!

thanks
I went through the same issue
You have to do the throttle position sensor relearn using a bi directional scanner to bring down the rpm's to a normal value around 650 then do the idle relearn procedure and clear the codes you can find more info online about the tps zero adjustment
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Well I bought the Foxwell NT520 and downloaded the Honda update - BUT - it does not have the throttle position reset item #12 under PGM -FI control for Honda. Someone else had that same issue on a youtbe video when trying to use the 520 to reset throttle position.

The 520 does have the PCM Reset, which I did but the PCM reset didn't do anything different than my battery reset/pulling fuse.

In any case, my idle rpm is around 650 rpm anyhow. The relative throttle position is about 1.76 deg at idle and it seems to track my MAP pressures. The target idle threshold was 1.78 deg according to the NT520. So do I really need to reset it still?

Do I need to get the foxwell NT510 for the TP reset feature? I need to return the 520 now...it was on sale for $159.99 too!

Or is this consistent with what you are suggesting DrD - that there is no thottle position relearn for the 2005 odyssey? Just do the PCM reset?

One thing I did notice though was at 650 rpm, maybe one out of every 10 seconds, the idle may surge slightly to 750 rpm and my MAP pressures go up slightly. However, this was happening before I cleaned throttle body and MAP sensor.

Then I think the rel throttle position would deviate down (if I recall correctlly) slightly.

Is it normal for the idle rpm to pulse a little once in a while (with throttle closed, foot off pedal, in park, at temperature), or should it be steady all the time at like 650 rpm?


On a separate issue, I did notice my bank 1 short term fuel trims are at 12% at idle most of the time. The trim drops down to zero or even negative with throttle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,206 Posts
There was a long thread here recently about this. I recall the throttle relearn function either moved or disappeared due to a Foxwell software update. So it’s not an issue with the 520 vs 510 model. I don’t recall if a solution was found or if it requires waiting on a correction from Foxwell.
I’m sure somebody here will recall this thread and hopefully find it and post it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
45 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
I found it! I guess Foxwell NT520 puts the reset on a PGM-FI, Inspection menu, ETCS test, as opposed to the menu item 12, for 2005 Odyssey.

To reset, one has to do a TP position check test under the ETCS menu.
Sure enough, it said it failed test....then asked if I want to reset TP. I reset it then did a pcm reset then I did the pcm idle relearn. Then I redid the TP test and it passed - although it barely made a difference in the idle. I couldn't tell any difference at all.

There is another test though on the NT520 though under inspection, ETCS (TAC) test. I believe this is a throttle actuator relay test. I decided to run that test for fun.

The NT520 says my 2005 odyssey fails this TAC test - throttle actuator control relay cannot be turned off. It does pass the TP sensor test though now after doing relearn.

However, I noticed the NT520 also failed a vsa function test too. It wasn't able to shut off something too and left it running. Once I turned engine off though and on, it shut off.

So I'm not sure if that TAC test fail is legit or not, or if it is just the NT520 can't shut off relays with some of its tests.

Anybody ever run a ETCS test with their scanner? If my TAC relay was bad and stuck open, shouldn't I get a check engine code - and wouldn't I notice that?

After TP reset and idle relearn, I am idling right around 650 rpm. It still isn't perfectly stable idle though.

Maybe 1 out of every 20 secs, when idling at stop sign, RPM will surge up to 750 rpm and my MAP pressure jumps up slightly like from 3 psi to 5psi.

On a separate issue I've been looking at, I did notice positive short term fuel (+15%) and long term fuel trim (+5%) on bank 1. Bank 2 is lower at (7% stft and +3% ltft).

The trims on bank 1 do drop closer to 0 and even negative with increased throttle. LTFT don't change much at all..

Since I have just cleaned out throttle body and as my TPS is calibrated now to a MAP sensor (that I also cleaned out with MAF spray), does this suggest a vacuum leak causing the 750 rpm idle surges, or could I still have throttle position issues?

If I understand correctly, the 2005 odyssey MAP sensor (with NO MAF on air intake) should detect vacuum leaks.

So if I'm getting idle air sucked in once in a while, I assume the MAP pressure should go up. Then the fuel injector pulse width presumably is held open a bit longer to add more fuel for increased air, increasing my idle RPM to 750 rpm when I am getting a possible intake of air sucked in.

I guess I'm confused why my idle fuel STFT on bank 1 may be high though. If MAP sensor is working properly with a calibrated TPS position now, shouldn't the PCM still be putting out appropriate fuel AFR ratio for whatever extra air it sees from any vacuum leak?

The fuel trims drop with increased throttle, which I think suggests vacuum leak on a MAF system, but does it on a MAP system? Why only on bank 1 also....if a vacuum leak causing idle surge, shouldn't it affect bank 2 also.

thanks for any help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Hey - new to the forum. I own a 2012 Odyssey but thought my experiences with the MAP and LIMP modes might help here? I also had the P108 code that flashed after I cleaned the MAP sensor with MAF cleaner. I possibly made things worse from that cleaning! Perhaps some of the cleaner hadn't evaporated from some recessed part yet within the sensor when I re-installed it and shorted it out completely? Or I pushed some detritus further into the sensor from the MAF spray?
After cleaning and re-install, the van actually bucked on ignition flashed all sorts of lights: certainly the Check Engine and others including the system that senses and controls hydroplaning. The computer had received weird signals from sensor(s) and had gone into LIMP mode: on acceleration at 3000rpm the computer refuses to rev any further. It feels like the engine is bucking. It is a shock on the road when this happens, unexpectedly. You lose the expected power you need in passing gear and can cause a very dangerous situation. You CAN drive a van in LIMP mode - as long as all changing of gears and engine operation stays below 3000rpm. I got up to 45mph once using this method. Its the one time the tachometer really showed its usefulness post stickshift era.

The reason I was looking into the MAP sensor in the first place is that at startup the engine would try to start for 6 seconds before firing, not the normal 2 -3 seconds. Sometimes the MAP sensor has been the culprit according to other discussions on the Web. I am unsure my MAP sensor replacement actually fixed this problem for good. We'll see how it goes in the coming weeks.

So back to the experience: Once the P108 code was thrown, I was convinced the MAP sensor needed to be replace. Not a cheap sensor. Procedure: (1) I replaced the original (Youtube has videos). $59 at Autozone. (2) Reset the computer by disconnecting both the NEG and POS leads from the battery, waiting 15 minutes and then used battery jumper cables to touch together ( for 15 -20 seconds) the POS and NEG cables - which are too short to reach each other (note: the cables should not be connected to, or touch, the battery posts/terminals). Thanks to others who posted this procedure. (3) Re-attach the NEG and POS cables to the battery. NOTE: I understand the ECM computer can be reset by pulling the fuse (courtesy Youtube). This might be a quicker and easier method if it works. Try this first? (4) Turn on the ignition. NOTE: if you do not have codes if your entertainment/NAV system needs it push the Volume button for 2 -3 seconds after ignition . you might need to push it 2 -3 seconds twice or re-start the car and repeat that procedure (I did). OR Having actual codes to input (printed on some plastic card provided by Honda at time of purchase also works) (5) See if all the dashboard warning lights disable upon restarting the car.
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
About this Discussion
14 Replies
5 Participants
Skibum
Honda Odyssey Forum
Odyclub community is the #1 forum to discuss all things Honda Odyssey: minivans, safety, service maintenance, mods, and more.
Full Forum Listing
Top