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Discussion Starter #1
My wife's 99 Odyssey will turn 3 by the coming Jan. We have one of the earlier production version and have been happy about it with one exception: noisy sliding doors. Blah, blah, blah... (Note, transmission was replaced last September under waranty after I reported the very little sippinng leak around the oil pan.)
I checked the power steering fluid last night and found it is 3/4 full between max. and min. So where can I get the fluid? The cap says that it must be Honda fluid. Would someone out there share some of the experience on this? Amazing that the brake fluid did not show a single drop of loss in 2 1/2 years. Good!

Happy vanning
 

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I noticed no one has replied to your post...
ALWAYS use Honda power steering fluid. Napa and a few other auto stores make it, so you don't have to buy the actual Honda brand. Just make sure it is "Made for Hondas" and isn't regular power steering fluid. I had an '89 Prelude and added regular power steering fluid thinking theirs was just a way of getting you to spend more money. (Boy was I dumb!) Well, it started leaking very badly. I never did get it fixed because I didn't have the money. The pump itself leaked and almost all of the lines and seals did too.
 

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That's true, the rest of the fluids are compatible with other car makes. Power steering fluid has to be "made for Honda", personally, I'd buy Honda brand, cost more but it's the safest choice.

-Harry
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Finally I got a chance to come back to see any posting. Well, thanks for the replies. After my initial question posting, I ended up in Honda dealership and bought a bottle of the genuine Honda steering fluid. I found that it was cheaper (much!) to buy this in the Honda dealship than at Kragon.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">That's true, the rest of the fluids are compatible with other car makes.</font>
The 02 has coolant that isn't changed for 10 years. It's not a mileage issue, but time. After the first change, it's every 5 years. The manual is very specific about all this.

Given all this, I'm definitely going to use Honda brand coolant.

The technologies are getting deeper and deeper, and auto parts places will see their business decline, I think.
 

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I looked at a bottle of PS fluid of a popular brand and in the fine print, it said NOT FOR USE IN HONDAS. If the competition is even saying so, I guess it is the truth.

Jerry O. 2001 GG LX
 

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Hello Adam1991,

you might want to do a search on DEXCOOL.

There are some pretty scary stories about extended life antifreeze on the web. It appears that there is more to that stuff then just pouring it in the system. You have to make sure that you coolant recovery reservoir is well top up to the Hot Level even when the engine is cold. Also, you need to have a good radiator cap that will not let air seep in. All of those extended life antifreeze use additives that becomes acid if exposed to air and it will corrode everything it comes in contact with inside you engine/radiator.

GM has been using these antifreeze since 1996 but it appears that they did not follow all the directives from the coolant manufacturer "TEXACO", especially on their S/T series light trucks.

Best regards from Montreal, Canada

RobertC


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adam1991:
The 02 has coolant that isn't changed for 10 years. It's not a mileage issue, but time. After the first change, it's every 5 years. The manual is very specific about all this.

Given all this, I'm definitely going to use Honda brand coolant.

The technologies are getting deeper and deeper, and auto parts places will see their business decline, I think.
</font>


------------------
Gone to serve another customer.
 

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Most of the horror stories I have heard about ELC were from manufacturers of competeing brands of anti-freeze, particularly those that do not have an ELC type of anti-freeze in their product line-up, and are not licensed to produce that developed by others. Cummins, which owns Fleetguard, comes to mind. They have their own "long life" brand. However, many new large trucks are coming with ELC from Texaco/Shell/Equilon, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel etc, from the factory. I have had Texaco ELC in my truck for 4 years and 98,000 miles (out of 137,000) without any problems whatsoever. However, Internet wisdom was telling me that it would eat up my aluminum radiator and heater core, water pump,injector O rings etc. long before now. (As if the big rigs don't have aluminum). Many of the people on the truck website I frequent, that have not used an ELC coolant, have replaced some or all of these items. However, if my truck were to need any of these items repaired, it would be taken as proof that the ELC caused the failure. Always check the source of rumors. The PH of these coolants is acidic from the git-go. Thats why they're called OAT coolants. Organic Acid Technology.
Regards
Al

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 09-19-2001).]
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">you might want to do a search on DEXCOOL.

There are some pretty scary stories about extended life antifreeze on the web.
</font>
Which is why I buy Honda.

If Honda makes a corporate engineering decision that turns out to be drastically wrong, they admit it and fix the problem and take care of the customer.

They don't just sit on their hands and ignore the problem and tell the customer he's screwed.
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adam1991:
Which is why I buy Honda.

If Honda makes a corporate engineering decision that turns out to be drastically wrong, they admit it and fix the problem and take care of the customer.

They don't just sit on their hands and ignore the problem and tell the customer he's screwed.
</font>
Then why aren't they doing something about the roof rack crossbars.

Regards
Al
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Then why aren't they doing something about the roof rack crossbars.</font>
I honestly don't know. I haven't had the need to address this with them.

So let me get this straight: Honda sold crossbars that it *later* said wouldn't perform a specific job, correct?

And it was a job that initially they said, or at least implied, the crossbars would do, correct?
 

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The Dexcool horror stories are from General Motors themselves. They were the first to use OAT based ELC at the factory.

I was just pointing out that there is more to switching coolant type then just pouring it in.

As far as Cummins complaint on the stuff, it was true. Some of their N14 engines haves experience gasket shrinkage due to material incompatibilities with OAT bases ELC. They have since switches to a different material composition for these gaskets.

And Yes AL you are right, Equilon/Texaco licensed OAT technology and all OAT based coolant are source from them. But please be aware that certain engine manufacturer add a personal touch to the original receipe. As an example, Caterpillar adds Nitrate additives to the mix as they believe it will offer better protection against cavitation erosion of the wet liner sleeves.

More scary is that fact that most of the truck manufacturers are not too acquainted with OAT coolants and not to use a regular coolant filter containing additives. I have seen several different brand of truck/engine combination delivered to the fleet with OAT based coolant and the coolant filter supplied from the factory had the additves required for conventional coolant which is not compatible and can create serious problems. Engine using OAT based coolant should use a coolant filter with no chemicals inside.

BTW, I teach this as part of my functions.

Best regards

RobertC


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by albaby:
Most of the horror stories I have heard about ELC were from manufacturers of competeing brands of anti-freeze, particularly those that do not have an ELC type of anti-freeze in their product line-up, and are not licensed to produce that developed by others. Cummins, which owns Fleetguard, comes to mind. They have their own "long life" brand. However, many new large trucks are coming with ELC from Texaco/Shell/Equilon, Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel etc, from the factory. I have had Texaco ELC in my truck for 4 years and 98,000 miles (out of 137,000) without any problems whatsoever. However, Internet wisdom was telling me that it would eat up my aluminum radiator and heater core, water pump,injector O rings etc. long before now. (As if the big rigs don't have aluminum). Many of the people on the truck website I frequent, that have not used an ELC coolant, have replaced some or all of these items. However, if my truck were to need any of these items repaired, it would be taken as proof that the ELC caused the failure. Always check the source of rumors. The PH of these coolants is acidic from the git-go. Thats why they're called OAT coolants. Organic Acid Technology.
Regards
Al

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 09-19-2001).]
</font>
 

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RobertC. I agree with what you say, but if the coolant filters with the additives were left on the engine, I doubt if that was due to lack of knowledge on the engine manufacturers part, buy more likely due to stupidity and lack of quality control at either the point of assembly of the unit or the dealership that delivered the trucks.
Again, I will re-iterate the point that some of the greatest opposition to OAT coolants come from competitors whose very existence may depend on alternatives to OAT coolants.
Penray and Fleethiard come to mind.
I did not put OAT coolant in my Powerstroke until I had a personal chat with two techs from Navistar. The company line was that the coolant "may not be compatible with certain materials in the engine". That certainly wasn't very definitive and I asked for the location and types of the incompatible materials and recieved the stock answer several times. I finally called and arranged for a conference call with two of Navistars techs. The truth was that they could not identify any incompatible materials and did not even have any information on any testing done to identify the possibility of incompatiblity. Now Navistar says ELC can be used with the T444E because they "changed certain materials". When I called and asked which materials they changed so I could make my engine "compatible", the dealer could not give me an answer.
I have had my coolant tested several times to identify any problems that may be developing in the engine. There have been none identified. The testing is quite extensive and costs more than a coolant change would ($35). I am doing it to either prove or refute all the rumors I have heard. So far everything is looking good. I would be happy to send the results of the last test
I have also replaced the hoses and thermostat and have never seen a system so clean. (recycled most of the coolant). I suspect that may also be one of the reasons I have never had any tranny failure even though I have towed my fifth wheel over the best mountains this country and Canada have to offer. Some others have found their tranny failure was due to the accumulation of the additives required for diesels, and silicates around the transmission pancake cooler in the radiator, reducing its efficiency.
As far as OAT causing failure in older engines, particularly those that have not been well maintained, may be due more to the fact that a change in Ph can cause material that was previously sealing a leak to be removed and circulate in the system. A crud burst. Sometimes the chemical flushing otself will expose such problems.That is why a chemical flushing should be done on older vehicles. My 96 was only a year old when I put the OAT in so I did not chemically clean it. (Anyone that has been around long enough to see the change to the "new" detergent motor oils will know what I am talking about.) BTW-what do you teach, and for whom?
Regards
Al

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 09-20-2001).]
 

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<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by adam1991:
I honestly don't know. I haven't had the need to address this with them.

So let me get this straight: Honda sold crossbars that it *later* said wouldn't perform a specific job, correct?

And it was a job that initially they said, or at least implied, the crossbars would do, correct?
</font>
Correct-but Honda didn't state that the bars were not suitable for the application-although it is a very common usage-until I called them after both Yakima and Thule told me they would not be liable for damages, or warrant their boxes, if attached to the Honda crossbars. They specifically said the bars did not meet their minimum standards. I then called Honda and spoke to a rep who said Honda would not warrant the crossbars for that use. A letter to the NHTSA got me a somewhat generic response that did not address the question.

Regards
Al
 

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You are correct, it is not the engine manufacturers that are doing it but the truck's assembly plants that are messing it up.

Most of the engines supplied to the trucks assembly plants are supplied without a mounting base for a coolant filter. It is the truck assembly plant that decide to install one and with OAT coolants I have seen that some people did not do their job in educating the employees at the plants of what is required when they use OAT Coolants in engines.

At the Truck dealers it's even worse, most of them are not aware of difference between coolant additives they sell for regular coolant. There are only 2 types of coolant additives for regular coolants used in diesel engines. One is molybdate based and the other is Nitrate based.

Molybdate based additives are for used in engines running on pure water and /or a mix of antifreeze with water not exceeding 60% anti-freeze.

Nitrate based additives are for used in engine running with an anti-freeze/water mix with a minimum of 50% antifreeze to a maximum of 67% antifreeze concentration.

The breakdown by engine manufacturer's preferred chemicals for used with regular coolants.

Caterpillar, Detroit Diesel, Perkins, Volvo are reccomending Nitrate based additives.

Cummins, International are recommending Molybdate based additives.

The company that I work for as been educating their customers in all aspects of filtration, coolant additives and proper maintenance for more than 10 years. We educate our distributors and their customers/end users.

I'll give you a hint on who I work for, follow this link...

http://www.baldwinfilter.com/sales/rchar.html

Best regards from Montreal, Canada
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by albaby:
RobertC. I agree with what you say, but if the coolant filters with the additives were left on the engine, I doubt if that was due to lack of knowledge on the engine manufacturers part, buy more likely due to stupidity and lack of quality control at either the point of assembly of the unit or the dealership that delivered the trucks.
Again, I will re-iterate the point that some of the greatest opposition to OAT coolants come from competitors whose very existence may depend on alternatives to OAT coolants.
Penray and Fleethiard come to mind.
I did not put OAT coolant in my Powerstroke until I had a personal chat with two techs from Navistar. The company line was that the coolant "may not be compatible with certain materials in the engine". That certainly wasn't very definitive and I asked for the location and types of the incompatible materials and recieved the stock answer several times. I finally called and arranged for a conference call with two of Navistars techs. The truth was that they could not identify any incompatible materials and did not even have any information on any testing done to identify the possibility of incompatiblity. Now Navistar says ELC can be used with the T444E because they "changed certain materials". When I called and asked which materials they changed so I could make my engine "compatible", the dealer could not give me an answer.
I have had my coolant tested several times to identify any problems that may be developing in the engine. There have been none identified. The testing is quite extensive and costs more than a coolant change would ($35). I am doing it to either prove or refute all the rumors I have heard. So far everything is looking good. I would be happy to send the results of the last test
I have also replaced the hoses and thermostat and have never seen a system so clean. (recycled most of the coolant). I suspect that may also be one of the reasons I have never had any tranny failure even though I have towed my fifth wheel over the best mountains this country and Canada have to offer. Some others have found their tranny failure was due to the accumulation of the additives required for diesels, and silicates around the transmission pancake cooler in the radiator, reducing its efficiency.
As far as OAT causing failure in older engines, particularly those that have not been well maintained, may be due more to the fact that a change in Ph can cause material that was previously sealing a leak to be removed and circulate in the system. A crud burst. Sometimes the chemical flushing otself will expose such problems.That is why a chemical flushing should be done on older vehicles. My 96 was only a year old when I put the OAT in so I did not chemically clean it. (Anyone that has been around long enough to see the change to the "new" detergent motor oils will know what I am talking about.) BTW-what do you teach, and for whom?
Regards
Al

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 09-20-2001).]
</font>
 

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RobertC, In regards to the following:"Also, you need to have a good radiator cap that will not let air seep in. All of those extended life antifreeze use additives that becomes acid if exposed to air and it will corrode everything it comes in contact with inside you engine/radiator."
I have seen web posts and dealers show water pumps with the impellers severely pitted or completely worn away at the center. They have attributed this to acid formation (with both regular and ELC type fluids)when in fact, it was probably due to cavitation. If you mention cavitation, a lot of people don't have a clue as to what it is. This includes some engineers. Many think it is a chemical reaction (and call it acid pitting etc.)when in fact, it is a mechanical action caused by the pressure in a system dropping below the vapor pressure of the fluid in relation to the temperature of the fluid. This results in an implosion when a vapor bubbles form and the collapse violently. This can occur anywhere in an engine but the most visual result is in the water pumps (a/o cylinders walls in a diesel). The pressure is lowest at the eye of the impeller, thus this is where the bubble forms. This is the result of either excessive flow (design, or thermostat removal etc.) or low pressure in the system, which can be cause by a defective radiator cap.( In Diesels it is the result of the vibration of the cylinder walls). Since both coolants are glycol based and have similar boiling points, it can occur with any of them. Some diesel coolants require additives to prevent cavitation damage that need to be replenished quite frequently-or have filters that slowly replenish the additive-while ELC coolants meant for diesels are designed with additives that do not need replenishing for 150-300K miles. (Both work by putting a sacrificial coating on the parts.
I'm sure you are aware of this, but I am putting it out just to clarify a few of our statements. Boy, have we drifted off topic or what?
Regards
Al

[This message has been edited by albaby (edited 09-24-2001).]
 

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Oh yeah, I forgot to ask if GM took their engines propensity for head gasket failure into account when they were looking into causes for "acid" coolant. The combustion products will make any coolant acidic. The "air" theory doesn't sound quite right. Maybe it's like Firestone blaming Ford, when Explorers with other tires don't seem to have the problems. GM is not the only manufacturer to use OAT coolants.

Regards
Al
 
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