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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings. We bought a brand new 2009 EX-L with DVD, RES and NAV about month ago (with approx. 30 miles on the odometer). Within a few days after purchasing the van, we started hearing a real annoying resonating noise that basically permeates through the cabin. The noise can be heard at all speeds but is most prominent at 40-60 mph around 1500-1600 rpm.

The noise that we are hearing is akin to a sonic boom heard in a car when the rear windows are open (FYI - the noise is heard even when all windows and the moon roof are fully closed). The problem is so acute that after driving for about 20 minutes or so in the van, our ears begin to hurt and "pop" as though we are flying through turbulence in an aircraft. Has anyone come across this problem ???

The Honda dealership at first tried balancing the tires but that did not help. They then said that this noise is a "normal characteristic of the van". They claim to have test driven another '09 Ody on their lot and say the noise is still there. We also test drove an '09 Ody EX-L later that evening and did not notice this resonance/noise whatsoever. We are now convinced that this is not a "normal characteristic of the van" but are clueless on what the problem might be. The van now has less than 500 miles on the odometer and the noise is killing us - we probably will go deaf if we continue to drive this way.

Would appreciate any suggestions/ideas from fellow "Odyssians". Thanks!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks, RBRT. Some members on this forum indicated resonance at 48 mph. This appears to be what I am seeing on my vehicle but the noise can be sensed at all speeds, right from 5 mph up to highway speeds. It just does not go away. 48 mph is probably the "sweet" spot when the noise is the greatest.

Is it possible that the ANC is not working/malfunctioning in my vehicle? I am wondering if this would be captured by the engine diagnostic codes. I came across one posting that pointed to a simultaneous loss of the ANC and ACM (active control engine mount) systems.

See: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hondaodysseyownersclub/message/9421 (see also posts 9422 and 9423).

Judging from the posts here and on other forums (Edmunds Town Hall and Yahoo Honda Odyssey Owners Club), the problem seems to be quite prevalent. Some knowledgeable dealers, apparently, have been able to resolve this by issue replacing defective engine mounts/torque converter/wheel bearings/tires etc.

The biggest challenge will probably to be to get my dealer to try the above solutions. I asked him to check the torque converter and the engine mounts but he did not express much interest / confidence in the effectiveness of these solutions.

While this might appear to be some kind of a design flaw, it is just beyond me that some Odys exhibit this annoying noise while others do not. I am surprised that Honda has not yet issued a TSB to resolve this issue or if they are even aware/care how widespread this is. Can't we flood Honda with complaints on this issue to get them to act?? What is the means to do this?

This forum is really great and should probably be a must-read for all Honda engineers and service technicians.
 

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tripod69 said:
Is it possible that the ANC is not working/malfunctioning in my vehicle? I am wondering if this would be captured by the engine diagnostic codes. I came across one posting that pointed to a simultaneous loss of the ANC and ACM (active control engine mount) systems.

See: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/hondaodysseyownersclub/message/9421 (see also posts 9422 and 9423).

.
It could be that the ANC on your Ody is defective. Have you tried dis-abling ANC to see if you have the same problem?
 

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tripod69 said:
Greetings. We bought a brand new 2009 EX-L with DVD, RES and NAV about month ago (with approx. 30 miles on the odometer). Within a few days after purchasing the van, we started hearing a real annoying resonating noise that basically permeates through the cabin. The noise can be heard at all speeds but is most prominent at 40-60 mph around 1500-1600 rpm.

The noise that we are hearing is akin to a sonic boom heard in a car when the rear windows are open (FYI - the noise is heard even when all windows and the moon roof are fully closed). The problem is so acute that after driving for about 20 minutes or so in the van, our ears begin to hurt and "pop" as though we are flying through turbulence in an aircraft. Has anyone come across this problem ???

The Honda dealership at first tried balancing the tires but that did not help. They then said that this noise is a "normal characteristic of the van". They claim to have test driven another '09 Ody on their lot and say the noise is still there. We also test drove an '09 Ody EX-L later that evening and did not notice this resonance/noise whatsoever. We are now convinced that this is not a "normal characteristic of the van" but are clueless on what the problem might be. The van now has less than 500 miles on the odometer and the noise is killing us - we probably will go deaf if we continue to drive this way.

Would appreciate any suggestions/ideas from fellow "Odyssians". Thanks!!
Is your 2009 VIN in this TSB? If so, go get the product update done and let us know if the issue is gone or greatly reduced. It worked well for my 08 Ody.

TSB 09-053 Product Update: Lock-Up Clutch Judders Between 20–45 MPH
Applies To:
2007–08 Odyssey – ALL
2009 Odyssey LX, EX:
Production Line 1 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B000351
thru 5FNRL3...9B056551
Production Line 2 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B400201
thru 5FNRL3...9B410343
EX-L, Touring:
Production Line 1 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B000201
thru 5FNRL3...9B050869
Production Line 2 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B400321
thru 5FNRL3...9B405632

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-053.PDF
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Took my '09 Ody EX-L to the shop today. Service manager rode with us and gave us the standard "we don't hear anything". Anyway, he went ahead and asked the tech. to perform the TSB 09-053 product update.

Verdict: The product update has NO effect whatsoever on the judder. I can still hear/feel the judder quite distinctly. This is a huge disappointment.

I am now beginning to suspect whether the product update was even performed correctly - my suspicion is driven by the fact that there is no reference to TSB 09-053 on the service invoice. This is what the invoice says:
----------------------------------------
125517 ECM/PCM - Reprogram.
SB 01-084
SB 03-002
SB 04-013
SB 05-038
SB 06-022
SB 06-045
SB 06-052
SB 5 WH3

906 Completed update on PCM
----------------------------------------

EE4Life: If you don't mind helping me out, can you tell me whether your invoice also refers to the above service bulletins ? I will contact the dealer again tomorrow to confirm whether 09-053 was indeed performed.

This is turning out to be a nightmare but I am not giving up anytime soon. Will keep you all posted. Also, if any one else had the TSB 09-053 product update done, please share your experience whether positive/negative/neutral. Thanks.

EE4Life said:
Is your 2009 VIN in this TSB? If so, go get the product update done and let us know if the issue is gone or greatly reduced. It worked well for my 08 Ody.

TSB 09-053 Product Update: Lock-Up Clutch Judders Between 20–45 MPH
Applies To:
2007–08 Odyssey – ALL
2009 Odyssey LX, EX:
Production Line 1 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B000351
thru 5FNRL3...9B056551
Production Line 2 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B400201
thru 5FNRL3...9B410343
EX-L, Touring:
Production Line 1 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B000201
thru 5FNRL3...9B050869
Production Line 2 –
FromVIN 5FNRL3...9B400321
thru 5FNRL3...9B405632

http://www.in.honda.com/Rjanisis/pubs/SB/A09-053.PDF
 

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Re: Re: Resonance/Vibration in 2009 EX-L

tripod69 said:
Took my '09 Ody EX-L to the shop today. Service manager rode with us and gave us the standard "we don't hear anything". Anyway, he went ahead and asked the tech. to perform the TSB 09-053 product update.

Verdict: The product update has NO effect whatsoever on the judder. I can still hear/feel the judder quite distinctly. This is a huge disappointment.

I am now beginning to suspect whether the product update was even performed correctly - my suspicion is driven by the fact that there is no reference to TSB 09-053 on the service invoice. This is what the invoice says:
----------------------------------------
125517 ECM/PCM - Reprogram.
SB 01-084
SB 03-002
SB 04-013
SB 05-038
SB 06-022
SB 06-045
SB 06-052
SB 5 WH3

906 Completed update on PCM
----------------------------------------

EE4Life: If you don't mind helping me out, can you tell me whether your invoice also refers to the above service bulletins ? I will contact the dealer again tomorrow to confirm whether 09-053 was indeed performed.

This is turning out to be a nightmare but I am not giving up anytime soon. Will keep you all posted. Also, if any one else had the TSB 09-053 product update done, please share your experience whether positive/negative/neutral. Thanks.
Funny you ask tripod69, as I have an exact answer for your question. I went through the exact same thing with my dealers.

The first one wouldn't even do the product update in the TSB, as they test drove the Ody and stated they could not duplicate the issue. So, they gave us the Ody back, having done nothing. I told them that there was nothing to prove and that the product update was not optional.

They still wouldn't do anything, so I called Honda customer service and opened a case. I told them about my experience and
they stated that the dealer shouldn't be giving me any hassle. They told me to try another dealer, if that was possible, and print out a copy of the TSB and give it to them. I said I would try that.

The next day, the dealer contacted me and stated that Honda would authorize a one time goodwill for the product update in the TSB. I thought to myself, huh??? There is no goodwill needed here. Just please do what Honda requires. I was so aggravated at this point, that I decided that I was going to try another dealer.

So, I called a second dealer and asked them if they knew about the new TSB and if they were able to do it. They looked it up and said they could, so I made an appointment for that evening.

While waiting for my Ody, the service manager came out and asked me if I was having the issue in the TSB and that he could not feel anything when he drove it. I stated I did and that I already complained to another dealer, but the other dealer stated it was normal and due to the VCM/ECO function.

I knew that was not the case, but the TSB was not out then. The service manager stated that if there was an issue, the product update could make things worse. I said to just please do the update. So, they finally did.

Why are we getting hassled by various dealerships to have the product update performed? This is absolutely ridiculous. This is not optional!...there is nothing to prove! Just do it and we will be on our way!

So anyway, I looked over the service invoice before I left the dealer and thought that they mixed up my invoice with someone else's invoice, as the info looked suspect and didn't relate to the TSB.

So, to answer your question. your service invoice is technically correct, as that is how the dealership computer system prints out the invoice. The 125517 reference is the operation number and matches what is listed in the TSB on the top of page 2 under Warranty Claim Information.

Those TSBs listed on the invoice all get grouped together, since they fall under the same operation number, and since our Ody TSB is so new, their computer system has not been updated with it yet. My dealer said it could take up to 6 months for our TSB 09-053 to be added to the list.

So, since I felt that the invoice didn't have info related to the actual service performed for the TSB and I wanted something with reference to the TSB, the service manager went into their computer system and edited the output, so that the TSB is now listed and he generated a new invoice for me. So, I technically have two invoices.....one original with the standard info from the computer system and one modified by the service manager to address my concern and need for detailed info for future reference.

Here is what is stated on the invoices:

Original invoice:
PERFORM PRODUCT UPDATE
CAUSE: PER BULLETIN
125517 ECM/PCM - REPROGRAM
S/B# 01-084
S/B# 03-002
S/B# 04-013
S/B# 05-038
S/B# 06-022
S/B# 06-045
S/B# 06-052
S/B#
8132 W4H 0.30
FC: 5LJ00
PART#: 37820-RGM-A86
COUNT: 1
CLAIM TYPE: RG
AUTH CODE:


Modified invoice:
PERFORM PRODUCT UPDATE
CAUSE: PER BULLETIN
125517 ECM/PCM/UPDATE
S/B 09-053
8132 W4H 0.30
FC: 5LJ00
PART#: 37820-RGM-A86
COUNT: 1
CLAIM TYPE: RG
AUTH CODE:

Another thing to point out is that I do not believe it is possible to center-punch the completion mark on the VIN plate per the TSB, due to it's location. So, don't feel that if you don't see the mark that the update was not done. I do not have the mark of completion, as far as I know.

I hope this post and info helps you and everyone else who goes through getting this product update performed.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Resonance/Vibration in 2009 EX-L

EE4Life said:
Why are we getting hassled by various dealerships to have the product update performed? This is absolutely ridiculous. This is not optional!...there is nothing to prove! Just do it and we will be on our way!

My dealer said it could take up to 6 months for our TSB 09-053 to be added to the list.
Seems that Odyclub has the most recent TSB info and that may put some people in a defensive mode. 6 months added to their list? Sheesh, it's a matter of days before I cut and paste the latest TSBs from the internet to this site...
 

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The dealerships get the TSBs and other info daily from Honda, but their computer system that handles the servicing of vehicles is very poor and outdated.

Apparently the only info that is available to all dealerships is warranty repairs. I do not believe that regular services are shared. Hence the need to keep detailed service records.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 · (Edited)
Thanks EE4Life for the detailed response. My dealer confirmed this morning that they indeed performed the 09-053 update on my vehicle. The judder unfortunately is still there and the dealer is refusing to acknowledge the problem. He says that swapping out the Torque Converter might or might not fix the problem and he does not want to spend resources and time not knowing the outcome. Also, he claims to have called the Honda tech. line and the technicians there are advising a "watch-and-wait" approach to see if the problem goes away or if it gets worse (they're probably hoping that the customer will eventually get tired of complaining and give up -- not so fast, buddy). They also set me up to meet with the District Service Manager next month to see if he hears any judder (I am certain that I will not need a crystal ball to determine the outcome of that meeting -- these guys will do anything to claim that there is no defect).

As suggested by RBRT earlier in this forum, I also tried disabling the ANC to see if that makes a difference. Disabling the ANC adds a drone but the underlying judder is still there. So, it might not be the ANC.

On a related note, is there a way of posting mp3 or other audio files on this forum? I was going to try and record the noise on my mp3 player/recorder and post it for the benefit of others on this forum.

Thank you all for the support and encouragement.


EE4Life said:
Funny you ask tripod69, as I have an exact answer for your question. I went through the exact same thing with my dealers.
 

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tripod69:
I feel your pain. Issues like this fall on deaf ears. You drive the car daily for years.....they drive it for a few minutes. The dealer service dept doesn't want to spend time and money looking into your issue when they can be making money on services.

You are going the correct route with the district service manager. From there, he/she can have a specialist from Honda come out and test drive your car.

Your best way to get their attention and to prove your case is to use a video camera to capture the issue. You can then post it to YouTube (or similar site) and post the link, so we can all see it.
 

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These dealers sound like the equivalent of Apple's genius bar. Take an iphone to them and complain about a very yellow screen and they'll say that's normal or that Apple made the screen warmer.
I'd rather go to the dentist and have my teeth pulled out than going to either of these clowns.
 

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Re: Re: Re: Resonance/Vibration in 2009 EX-L

EE4Life said:


Another thing to point out is that I do not believe it is possible to center-punch the completion mark on the VIN plate per the TSB, due to it's location. So, don't feel that if you don't see the mark that the update was not done. I do not have the mark of completion, as far as I know.

I was incorrect in my statement about the center-punch mark on the VIN plate. The punch mark is not on the VIN plate. It is on the VIN sticker on the inside of the hood in the engine compartment. My mark is very suttle, but it is there. I thought it was to be on the VIN plate near the windshield, but I read the TSB wrong.

So, check your VIN sticker for the sign of completion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
EE4Life said:
You are going the correct route with the district service manager. From there, he/she can have a specialist from Honda come out and test drive your car.

Your best way to get their attention and to prove your case is to use a video camera to capture the issue. You can then post it to YouTube (or similar site) and post the link, so we can all see it.
EE4Life: Thanks for your suggestion and sorry about the delay in responding. I tried the following things over the last few weeks:

1. Tried capturing the resonating noise on video camera. Unfortunately, the road noise dominates and the resonance cannot be heard on video -- I think the resonance is outside of the range of frequencies that the video camera can capture.

2. I went to Radio Shack and purchased a sound level meter to measure the sound (the EE in me does not give up easily). When there is no resonance, the noise level in the cabin is about 90-92 dB. When there is resonance (most prominent around 48-50 mph and 1500 rpm), the noise level in the cabin jumps up to a whopping 102-103 dB (the meter unfortunately cannot measure frequencies). For comparison, I test drove another 2009 Odyssey EX-L which did not appear to have a resonance problem, and the noise level in the cabin was about 90-92 dB at all speeds. Also, my 1995 Corolla which is much queiter than the Odyssey gives 85-87 dB at most.

3. Met with the DSM and showed him the readings on the meter and although he was very patient in listening to my problem, he acknowledged that he did not hear any resonance -- he also did not seem to think there is much difference in perception between 90dB and 100dB. So bottom line is the meeting, in my opinion, was not very productive.

I am at a loss as to what to do next. I will try another dealer across town to see if he can help. If he cannot, then I guess I will have to call American Honda directly to open a case and tell him that I will pursue state lemon laws if they don't resolve this (not an easy option from what I understand especially when the dealer will not acknowledge there is a problem). Back to the drawing board, I guess.

EE4Life said:
I was incorrect in my statement about the center-punch mark on the VIN plate. The punch mark is not on the VIN plate. It is on the VIN sticker on the inside of the hood in the engine compartment. My mark is very suttle, but it is there. I thought it was to be on the VIN plate near the windshield, but I read the TSB wrong.

So, check your VIN sticker for the sign of completion.
My VIN sticker on the inside of the hood in the engine compartment does not show any center-punch mark. Dealer said it is not needed.
 

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tripod69:

Thanks for the update. It is too bad your DSM meeting did not go so well. You did a lot of investigating and took good measurements to prove your case. But based on my experience and other member's experiences, if the problem is not obvious enough for the tech or service advisor/manager to feel or hear it and agree that there is indeed an issue, unfortunately nothing is going to happen.

Your next step is to try another dealer and/or opening a case with Honda customer service. I would not mention your pursuit of the lemon law just yet, as it may cause them to become defensive and not be so helpful to start.

One thing that should be looked at, if you can get a dealer to do it, is to have a tech ride along with you and monitor the torque converter data with the Honda HDS during the test drive. Some folks on this forum (and on the Edmunds forum) have gone this route to verify their complaint.

If the data shows that the torque converter is not functioning properly, then that proof should be all that you need for your case.

If the data shows that the torque converter is functioning properly, then at least you tried, you know it works OK, and it may just be a characteristic of the Ody.

Remember, the Ody is a long vehicle and has long exhaust pipes, which as we know, will resonate at lower frequencies.

Some people think that there shouldn't be any vibration when in lock-up, but based on my experience with Hondas and Acuras, there is always some vibration at those speeds and rpms. It is a by-product of lugging the engine in a high gear, which helps fuel economy.

My Ody feels better after the TSB, but there is still some vibration like you have.

And as the TSB states, if there is still judder after the update, then the torque converter would need to be replaced:

A judder from the torque converter lock-up clutch may
be felt while driving between 20–45 mph. To minimize
the judder, a PCM A/T software update is available.
If the judder returns sometime in the future, after the
PCM A/T software is updated, the torque converter
would need to be replaced.

Good luck with your pursuit and we look forward to your updates.
 

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Brought my '07 EX-L in for LOF/ROT at 20K. Mentioned hearing engine pitch slightly rise and fall at steady speeds while observing minor tach changes at 1-2 second intervals. TSB 09-053 was performed which then induced the "judder" while accelerating through 25-30MPH at light throttle. The torque converter has been replaced and the problem appears to have been corrected.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thanks for sharing this info, foxman. My dealer is refusing to replace the torque converter -- his argument is that the torque converter tested out fine when they hooked it up to a computer and that replacement will do no good as the new TC would be of the exact same type and design. I am curious whether your dealer tested the torque converter (if so, how) before deciding to replace it.

foxman said:
Brought my '07 EX-L in for LOF/ROT at 20K. Mentioned hearing engine pitch slightly rise and fall at steady speeds while observing minor tach changes at 1-2 second intervals. TSB 09-053 was performed which then induced the "judder" while accelerating through 25-30MPH at light throttle. The torque converter has been replaced and the problem appears to have been corrected.
 

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I always walk over to the service garage to BS with the tech. I explained that I had noticed the engine pitch slightly rise and fall at steady speed (usually 35-40) and had observed the tach jumping back and forth about 100 RPMs like a second hand. I also told him this could not be felt, only heard and observed. He stated it was the torque converter clutch slipping and would perform the software update but based on his experience the torque converter would probably need to be replaced anyway. My personal opinion (that I kept to myself) was that it was the TCC locking and unlocking, not slipping. After the software update, he road tested it and noted on the SRO to order a new torque converter and set up an appointment to replace it when it arrived. On the way home the judder started in; this could be FELT. It shook terribly under light throttle passing up through 25-30. Once again my opinion was the software update caused rapid-fire locking/unlocking of the TCC. A more aggresive use of the throttle would skip over this. I believe the update changed the speed at which lock-up occurs; the tech advised the update is compatible with the new torque converter which I assume and hope is redesigned. I also noticed that the last upshift seems to take place at 42; it used to happen at 40. As far as any testing, the road test alone with the newly installed judder was the justification to replace the torque converter. As far as hooking the torque converter up to a computer, I'd like to see that! Based on my limited knowledge, I can only visualize a road test with a hand-held diagnostic device that will show the TCC locked or unlocked.
 

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And so we continue on with another wave of transmission woes on the Odysseys...
 
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