My dealer is replacing both front struts (leaking) under my Honda Care warranty. He tells me that the front end alignment required once the struts are replaced is not a covered item. I contend it should be since a covered part went bad and the alignment is ancillary to its repair. Please let me know your opinion/experience.
Strut Replacement - Alignment covered?
kreipe
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My dealer is replacing both front struts (leaking) under my Honda Care warranty. He tells me that the front end alignment required once the struts are replaced is not a covered item. I contend it should be since a covered part went bad and the alignment is ancillary to its repair. Please let me know your opinion/experience.
Hi there. Theoretically, the camber and caster are not adjustable on the odysseys in front. only toe is adjustable and changing the struts will not affect the toe. You can adjust the caster by shifting the subframe but that is another story. When you replace the struts in the front the only concern you will have is the height. the new struts will make a slight difference in height. Height will make a difference in camber. So slight, that only an allignment machine will tell. As a precaution, I would definately have the allignment performed.
I guarantee you the alignment will change if you replace the struts, or even dissassemble and reassemble the suspension with no new parts. I have done this my self many times and I know the toe-in measurement changes because I do my own alignment.
The problem is that there are two bolts which attach the hub carrier arm of the suspension to the strut. There are no special alignment features such as pins or machined registration surfaces to ensure that the arm is located in a precise postion relative to the strut. The bolts and the holes through the strut and hub carrier arm have a certain amount of tollerance built in. If you loosen the bolts, you will find that there is less than a degree or so of movement possible by pulling up or pushing down on the brake rotor, but there is movement. This changes the camber a slight amount. Every MacPherson strut suspension I have seen uses the same setup and the manufacturers do not claim adjustable camber for this small degree of motion since it is not really significant in terms of camber alignment. Also, camber is the least important alignment parameter anyway in terms of tire wear and vehicle steering (just a caveat on that statement that this applies to non-racing applications only).
The thing is that a small change in camber results in a significant change in toe-in due to the geometry of the suspension. Note that the tie rod connects to the knuckle arm at a point much lower than the strut to hub carrier attach points. Just eyeballing it, I would estimate the distance between the attach bolts is about he same distance from the lower bolt to the plane of the tie rod. That means that any movement at the bolt holes will have double the effect at the tie rod. Again just eyeballing it, the tie rod pivot to steering center axis is only about six inches (probably a little less than that since it is slightly less than the radius of the brake rotor). Given a tire radius of at least 13", that results in another multiplication factor of greater than 2.
From all this mechanical engineering nonsense, what we find is that tollerances on the strut attachment result in toe-in errors that are at least four times the linear error of the bolt to hole clearance. And since there are two bolts, worst case analysis shows the errors to be doubled yet again.
The bottom line is that the toe-in alignment IS GOING TO CHANGE if you replace the struts or even loosen the attach bolts. An alignment must be performed any time the struts are replaced.
The problem is that there are two bolts which attach the hub carrier arm of the suspension to the strut. There are no special alignment features such as pins or machined registration surfaces to ensure that the arm is located in a precise postion relative to the strut. The bolts and the holes through the strut and hub carrier arm have a certain amount of tollerance built in. If you loosen the bolts, you will find that there is less than a degree or so of movement possible by pulling up or pushing down on the brake rotor, but there is movement. This changes the camber a slight amount. Every MacPherson strut suspension I have seen uses the same setup and the manufacturers do not claim adjustable camber for this small degree of motion since it is not really significant in terms of camber alignment. Also, camber is the least important alignment parameter anyway in terms of tire wear and vehicle steering (just a caveat on that statement that this applies to non-racing applications only).
The thing is that a small change in camber results in a significant change in toe-in due to the geometry of the suspension. Note that the tie rod connects to the knuckle arm at a point much lower than the strut to hub carrier attach points. Just eyeballing it, I would estimate the distance between the attach bolts is about he same distance from the lower bolt to the plane of the tie rod. That means that any movement at the bolt holes will have double the effect at the tie rod. Again just eyeballing it, the tie rod pivot to steering center axis is only about six inches (probably a little less than that since it is slightly less than the radius of the brake rotor). Given a tire radius of at least 13", that results in another multiplication factor of greater than 2.
From all this mechanical engineering nonsense, what we find is that tollerances on the strut attachment result in toe-in errors that are at least four times the linear error of the bolt to hole clearance. And since there are two bolts, worst case analysis shows the errors to be doubled yet again.
The bottom line is that the toe-in alignment IS GOING TO CHANGE if you replace the struts or even loosen the attach bolts. An alignment must be performed any time the struts are replaced.
I would take that bet in a heart beat!! In fact, if you let me do the work, I will loosen the strut bolts and retighten them on your vehicle without removing a single component and I will intentionally cause your toe-in to be well outside the speficied tollerance. Care to take that bet?accordian said:
i guess also ur not a mechanic....i'm an auto service adviser, any strut or suspension work i sell, i have an alignment included in my estimates...accordian said:
as far as dat bet ur making i would take that bet.... i would also bet that after a strut job is done, is does change sinificantly and will create tire wear....
Please re-read my post:
So, take the bet! I'd make a killing because you don't understand the wording.
I guess I used too many negatives! I am saying that there is very little chance that the front end can be reassembled without messing up the alignment. In other words, ALWAYS get an alignment done after replacing the struts, no exceptions.
So, take the bet! I'd make a killing because you don't understand the wording.
The question of this thread is: should the cost of the alignement be covered by warranty?, not: is an alignement required after a strut replacement?
This is not the first time I hear of such abuses from dealers. If one needs to alter the alignement to do a procedure specificically required under warranty, then the alignement should be covered.
If somenone needs to remove the serpentine to replace a water pump, is he going to charge for the labor spent on the serpentine on the account that the serpentine was not under warranty? Nonsense to me.
This alignement is a grey area the dealers try to make a buck on car owners. I would fight it, even if that means filing a case in small claims court.
This is not the first time I hear of such abuses from dealers. If one needs to alter the alignement to do a procedure specificically required under warranty, then the alignement should be covered.
If somenone needs to remove the serpentine to replace a water pump, is he going to charge for the labor spent on the serpentine on the account that the serpentine was not under warranty? Nonsense to me.
This alignement is a grey area the dealers try to make a buck on car owners. I would fight it, even if that means filing a case in small claims court.
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'03 Odyssey - Struts/Shocks Replacement @ 28K Miles
I had noticed that the front-end had a shimmy/bouncy type feel for the past few weeks. Took my 2003 Odyssey (28,500 mileage) to Goodyear Tire Center and had a 4-wheel alignment done.
Goodyear gave me a printout of the before and after specs and said that the toe was way out of alignment. I bought 4-wheel alignment plan for $90 from Goodyear that I can use for the next 3 years to have 4-wheel alignment done every 6,000 miles. This plan has already paid for itself practically because a one-time 4-wheel alignment costs $50.
They then told me that shocks/struts needed to be replaced because they are leaking badly. Goodyear said that shocks/struts aren't covered by car manufacturer/dealer warranty because they are "wearable" parts. I've never had a vehicle where I had to replace the shocks/struts before. The shocks/struts (Monroe, I think) from Goodyear are warranted for 50,000 miles and it will cost about $600 to replace the front & rear.
Is it unusual for an Odyssey that is not outside of the 3 year/36,000 mile warranty to develop leaking or problems with shocks/struts? I do a lot of city/highway driving.
I was in a rear end accident (damage = $3K) a few months ago but this wouldn't cause wheel misalignment and leaking strut/shock issues.
I had noticed that the front-end had a shimmy/bouncy type feel for the past few weeks. Took my 2003 Odyssey (28,500 mileage) to Goodyear Tire Center and had a 4-wheel alignment done.
Goodyear gave me a printout of the before and after specs and said that the toe was way out of alignment. I bought 4-wheel alignment plan for $90 from Goodyear that I can use for the next 3 years to have 4-wheel alignment done every 6,000 miles. This plan has already paid for itself practically because a one-time 4-wheel alignment costs $50.
They then told me that shocks/struts needed to be replaced because they are leaking badly. Goodyear said that shocks/struts aren't covered by car manufacturer/dealer warranty because they are "wearable" parts. I've never had a vehicle where I had to replace the shocks/struts before. The shocks/struts (Monroe, I think) from Goodyear are warranted for 50,000 miles and it will cost about $600 to replace the front & rear.
Is it unusual for an Odyssey that is not outside of the 3 year/36,000 mile warranty to develop leaking or problems with shocks/struts? I do a lot of city/highway driving.
I was in a rear end accident (damage = $3K) a few months ago but this wouldn't cause wheel misalignment and leaking strut/shock issues.
G
Guest
·Re: '03 Odyssey - Struts/Shocks Replacement @ 28K Miles
Our Odyssey had a leaking right rear shock at about 25k miles. It was replaced under warranty.
Didn't know that anyone outside of KYB made replacement struts/shocks. Do you have a part number?
Wayne
Depending on the accident, which doesn't sound too severe if it only caused $3k damage, it could affect the alignment.BustAGroove said:
Our Odyssey had a leaking right rear shock at about 25k miles. It was replaced under warranty.
Didn't know that anyone outside of KYB made replacement struts/shocks. Do you have a part number?
Wayne
Re: '03 Odyssey - Struts/Shocks Replacement @ 28K Miles
Also, some extended warranties will not cover shocks; but will even cover struts as warrantied items since struts are suspension members in addition to being spring dampers.
Good luck speaking to your Honda dealer.
It seems like that Goodyear location might be trying to make some $ from you. Yes, the struts and shocks could fail in a short time frame. Like Wayne mentioned, Honda will replace your shocks if they indeed have failed within the warranty period. I also had my right rear shock replaced at around 30K miles. Shocks and struts are usually a wear item, but since you are within 3 year/36,000 miles warranty, and the shocks are defective because they are leaking - Honda should consider it warrantiable.BustAGroove said:
Also, some extended warranties will not cover shocks; but will even cover struts as warrantied items since struts are suspension members in addition to being spring dampers.
Good luck speaking to your Honda dealer.
2002 Honda Odtssey's DO NOT require a front end alignement when R & R front strut's. Nothing in the strut assy has anything to do with adjusting the camber and caster. It's a ploy from the dealer the get more money or from a service shop. Most people will believe what they are told. But when you do the work yourself, you'll realize the strut assy does not have any bearing on alignement,
The upper strut tower does not have slotted bolt holes like some vehicles to adjust the front end As well as the lower strut bolt hole that bolt to the spindle assy. There are no slotted holes or offset / cam lobes on the bolt heads which would be a sign of adjustments that could be made.
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