arretium

I'll be the 1st to jump in. As you can see from my bio, I've been a Honda owner for 28 years. I have also owned a Toyota and a DC minivan. It is my opinion that you cannot go wrong with ANY of these!! Here is my logic:

Odyssey - a GREAT minivan. You own two 17 yr old Hondas so now one needs to tell you about Honda reliability. Also, since the LX is devoid form many of the hi tech goodies, yet still has all of teh essential safety items, etc., it should be relatively trouble free. It is an awesome vehicle even at MSRP. In my area, I believe I see them advertised at $23.3K or so on a weekly basis ($25.8 for an EX cloth).

Sienna - another good van. I have a neighbor that has a CE and had leather put into it (don't ask the logic on this one as they did the same with an LX Accord). Anyway, they beat the hell out of the Sienna (2004) and it looks it but they have reported no problems with it. Personally, I find it a little soft in the suspension area. Also, my experience with Toyota dealers is that they, for lack of better terminology, suck. The Service Dept. experience between Honda and Toyota is at polar opposites. Living in a densely populated area, I have had the opportunity to visit many of both. I have a coworked with a 2005 Toyota (not a Sienna) and he has had a few frustrating visits to the dealer that resulted in complaints to Toyota corporate. I seem to see Sienna's discounted into the $23's in my area but I haven't tried to negotiate a price so I don't how low I go. Again, a good van IMO.

Caravan - a dilema. First, many who have tried the Stow and GO seats feel that they are uncomfortable. This may not be an issue for little kids but may become one as they grow older. From a price standpoint, they are giving these things away in my area. I would almost bet that you could get a decently equipped Grand Caravan for several $thousands less than an Ody or Sienna and they come with a 7/70 warranty still, I beleive. My DC T&C was virtually trouble free for its whole life (bought it from a family member who had the tranny repaired under warranty). Other than the paint peeling off the roof, the crude drive train, and the strange "normal" mechanical sounds, it was suprisingly reliable.


So, IMO, you can't go wrong. If you will keep the vehicle for many years, you may want to stick with Honda or Toyota. I LOVE my Ody so I don't have to tell you what my personal choice is. As for pricing, as many have noted in other threads here, determine how far you are willing to travel to get a vehicle and email the all the dealers within that range and start a dialog. It's not that hard - many hav ethe same inquiry screen and you can cut and paste your inquiry without much effort. Good luck and let us know what you finally wind up with.

 

I will be second. You kind of seem like Honda folks. You will probably get ok mileage knowing how to drive a Honda. What you say about mileage puzzles me. Do you think a two ton vehicle will get 28? My 02 gets consistant 19,75 in mixed driving. On all highway trips I get up to 23. Loaded down with aweek if signal to signal driving I can get as low as 16.75. For a huge van with a more than adequate acceleration this is fabulous. I never got better than 17 in my old MPV and it was smaller and a dog acceration wise. I could probably increase my mileage with less aggressive driving, but I am in this life to live a little.
I have somewhat unique perspective as my wife and I both have Odysseys. She bought an LX new in 03. We paid almost sticker for it. We went through our children's childhood with two different MPVs as Honda didn't make a large minivan in the 1990s. We just had to find out what the Ody was like. The MPV I was using for work was getting old and we needed a vacation sized vehicle. My wife also just wanted to be up higher. This past fall, when the second MPV died I decided to find a used Ody. (I suggested my wife getting something else but could not tear the Ody away from her). Having been lerking and posting around here since just before the 03 purchase I knew a lot about Odys. The 05 were out and the used ones were much more plentiful than in 03. I ended up with an EX as the only two LXs I found had such low mileage that they were more expensive. I finally found a deal on a dinged up one at a Nisson dealer. I wanted it as a work truck so I didn't care. I knew that I wanted an 02 or newer as there where many improvements starting then. The used Odys have had issues, but your mechanic is not in a position to know all the Honda dealer information or even fix things for free beyond the warranty period. This happens a lot as Honda wants to keep their reputation. If you are as cheap, I mean frugal as you suggest, I suggest a used Ody or even a used Sienna. The party line here (mostly) is that if you just want a minivan the Sienna and Ody are a toss up. If you are "into" driving and want to feel the road then the Ody wins. As a current Honda driver, I don't think you would be happy "driving an Caravan into the ground" Carvans are for people who change vehicles every three or four years. (Actually the Caravan is for renting at airports.) We Ody owners would not give up our comfortable middle row seats for the Stow and Go seats. Keep in mind that all these unfugal types who have to have the best of everything are leaving cloth EXs sitting around dealer lots. Honda is making far less LXs now than they used to , something like 10%. Don't dismiss an EX just to prove you are frugal. You don't want to pay sticker for a rare LX when you could have had the EX for about the same price. I have some insight as an observer of pathalogical cheapness. Watching my brother in law for twenty years. Crappy stuff is crappy stuff, no matter how cheap you got it. This is especially true if you are going to live with it for a long time.

 

Having just spent 3 weeks testing the Sienna, Odyssey and GC I ended up with the Ody, which was a HUGE surprise to me being that I'm "frugal" (not cheap.

GC - One WIDELY overlooked flaw of the middle row stow and go seats is that when seated in the 3rd row you CAN NOT put your feet under the middle seat! Go sit in ANY 3rd row and see that without space under the seat in front of you anyone over 5ft tall is very uncomfortable. Totally unsitable for a long ride.

Sienna - A HORRIBLE transmition hesitation (1-2 sec.) when accelerating to pass - say going from 45 and punching it. Very surprised by this but a know issue at Sienna websites.

Ody is by far the better value if you want the safety features - Stability control, curtain airbags.

 

You can buy an Ody for close to invoice if you look around or go aways to get it. I've heard your market is getting msrp or close to it. No idea why, they sell for invoice here fairly easily.

You can always fly somewhere, pick it up and have a nice mini-vacation for the couple grand you'll save!

IMHO, if cost is your main concern go buy a Dodge right now under the employee pricing, it'll probably be cheaper to own/operate over the long term. My parents are on their third Caravan since '89 and all were great. The 89 and '95 both went 200k miles before they traded. Their current '00 has about 150k without many problems. They tend to average around 22mpg with their current 3.8L Caravan.

I liked the driving of the Ody and all the gadgets. The Dodge has no gadget factor, less speed, handling, etc.

We disliked the looks of the Sienna so it got axed right off the bat. I've owned a dozen Toyotas so I have no doubt it's probably the best in terms of reliability/fit-finish/etc. Probably will turn better real-world mpg as well.

That being said, if you keep a vehicle a long time you better make sure you'll be happy with it. If the Ody is what you want, then find a way to get it. You know you can't get it for any MORE than the prices you're seeing so do some hard shopping around. Even if you aren't willing to make a trip to get one cheap, the couple grand you pay extra will be worth it if you get what you want. There's nothing worse than compromising a long-term investment to save a little on the front end. Every time you get into that other vehicle you'll be disappointed.

 

The Odyssey will not impress you with city mpg.

We had no problem choosing the Odyssey over all of the competition.

If I were someone who liked stripped down cars, I would lean towards Toyota in general. Toyotas are tougher in my opinion.
As far as minivans, I still would get the Honda over the Toyota I believe. It is just a better vehicle.

I think that you sound like you need to go with whoever will give you the best deal. Do an internet bid, based on invoice pricing. You should be able to get a stripped down van near invoice.

I have never felt comfortable dealing with Toyota dealerships. They all come off like con-artists.

I bought my Ody EX-L with RES at $300 over invoice.

I bought my Honda Accord EX-L last year at $836 UNDER invoice. I went with the Accord partially because Toyota would not deal on a Camry. I couldn't get anyone to within a $1000 OVER invoice.

I cannot STAND to be ripped off. That is just me.

D3B

 

I was pretty much in the same boat as you, looking to get a no frills (i.e. base model) mini-van for as cheap as possible :stupid:

Grand Caravan - Wife love the stow n go, I liked it too, but the 2nd row seats are uncomfortable. I don't like driving the GC at all, and the styling is debatable. Anyway, the only reason I looked into it was the employee discount but even with that, It was hardly any cheaper than the Ody LX, which prompted us to look into the Odyssey.

Toyota Sienna - We didn't really look into it, but the Sienna strikes me as a good van that's comparable to Ody. I am sure you can't go wrong with it. If it comes down to $$ between Honda/Toyota, go with what you think is the better value for the money.

Honda Odyssey - Wife loves how comfortable the car is, and I love the way it drives. Similar to you, the dealer can't even show us a LX (but they do have one in stock SOMEWHERE forsale). Abit unsettling, but they promised us that we will get one so I guess that was okay. However, we compared the options upgrade between the LX and the EX and we ended up buying the EX because we felt the extras were worth it to us (such as Alloy rims, power seat, 6 disc cd changer, Ocean Mist color, power doors). We bought it a few hundreds over invoice (+ destination) but we would probably reconsider if we have to pay close to MSRP.

I would suggest that you shop around and see if you can get a LX (which is rare, so it might be hard) closer to invoice in your area, or maybe contact nearby states that can give you what you want. If that fails, get a Sienna, I am sure you will be happy with it. Stay away from the GC, hehe.

 

For us it came down to handling and appearance. The Odyssey handled enough better so we were leaning toward it, then we parked the Odyssey and Sienna side by side on a test drive (Toyota dealership didn't like that at all obviously) and just liked the bulkier, less minivannish look of the Odyssey.

People talk about the confusing options packages on the Sienna and personlly, they don't confuse me at all so that had no bearing.

At any rate, either the Sienna or the Odyssey will serve you well, but the Odyssey will make you look better. Heh, heh.

Good luck!

 

We started out looking at the Sienna CE before we eventually settled on the Odyssey EX-L.

But we got much better prices here in Boston. I got a quote in writing from our Toyota dealer for a Sienna CE $21,487.

We also got a quote (in writing) for a Odyssey EX for $25,100, which is less than your quote for an LX!

 

We test drove the Grand Caravan and found it to be rather lackluster from a performance standpoint. What we loved about the car was Stow N'Go. That was cool. The dealer let us have the car for the day, so we drove down to my parents and we were disappointed to get a whopping 15 mpg and this was highway miles. Also, it's an American car so I'm skepitcal of its reliability.

BTW the Honda Ody is built in the USA of MOSTLY American parts.

The only Japanese part on the van is the 5 speed automatic transmition......


one thing that was a turn off for the Toyota for us was the premium gas requirement. Raising the cost of ownership.

 

Re: Re: The Debate - Odyssey/Sienna/GCarvan (long)

BTW the Honda Ody is built in the USA of MOSTLY American parts.

The only Japanese part on the van is the 5 speed automatic transmition......


one thing that was a turn off for the Toyota for us was the premium gas requirement. Raising the cost of ownership.

The Toyota does not require premium gas. Like the 1999-2001 Odyssey, it does get a bit better performance on premium.

Did they move all Odyssey production from Canada to the Alabama plant or are some still built in Alliston? Siennas are mostly built in Princeton, Indiana. I'm not sure if there is a second plant elsewhere or not.

Also, there's pretty much no way to determine domestic content of vehicles. The arcane rules set by the government and included on the sticker are worthless. Case in point were the Toyota Corolla and Chevy Prizm. They rolled off the same line in California but the content stickers were significantly different just because of the name on the badge. I suspect the Odyssey and Sienna are both pretty close in domestic content.

 

Anyway, with all that said, please tell me what you guys (and gals) think.

If a 6 passenger vehicle will do, also consider the new Mazda 5. You'll get a lot better fuel economy and pay a lot less up front.

I haven't shopped the base models since I want an 8-passenger minivan. The choice between the Odyssey EX and Sienna LE is very close.

I don't think you could make a bad choice between the two. If you opt for a Sienna CE, wait for 2006. Side curtain airbags will be standard.

Good luck!

 

The grand caravan is simply not a worthy competitor to the sienna and ody. I would only consider it if money was an overwhelming factor.

 

My biggest issue is price (as it always is with me). The Hondas are generally marked up 3K above invoice around here in Seattle. After we drove the car, the sales person offerred $500 below MSRP, which I seriously debated for about 30 seconds.

I bought my '05 EX-L for $1500 below MSRP (invoice + dest + 1000) from Discovery Honda at Moses Lake last month. Give them a call and ask for their Internet sales manager. He's very friendly and willing to deal.

You might also consider Bob Hall Honda in Yakima. They might be able to give you at least an equal deal.

Cheers,
dan

 

arretium,

In your case, I presume you're looking at the LX and CE - If you do find that you "like" both vans equally, and value is a major driver for you, and safety is a major concern (and there should be no "if" here, from my point of view) I think you're better off with the Odyssey: Disk brakes, air bags all around, independent rear suspension, etc (though it appears as if Toyota might have addressed the air bag deficiency for 2006.)

For us, "getting a great deal" wasn't a primary concern. If it was, the Ody wouldn't have had a chance, since we shopped in November 2004, when the 3rd gen Ody was brand new and dealers weren't dealing much on the Ody yet. To this day, we don't care that we probably could have gotten a similarly equipped Sienna for less money than the Ody, or this much less than MSRP, or that much under invoice, or that we could "rake the Toyota salesman over the coals" - If we had bought a Sienna, I know that I would have become extremely frustrated with it (day after day after day....mile after mile....). What price for satisfaction?

No, our thinking is like this - if you don't like it, it's not worth it at any price. That said, both my wife and I disliked the Sienna (not just a little, but a lot...me especially) - so off the list it went. Today, eight months of driving later, and presumably with many, many years of satisfying driving to go, I am quite happy with our decision for Odyssey and quite happy with our decision to not get Sienna.

 

We have a 2003 ody and a 2005 C- town&country. The ody has 24,000 miles and the T&C has 6000. The T&C is a bit quieter and rides a little softer but the ody is more comfortable to drive. I like the manual doors on the T&C better than the elec doors on the ody. The ody has a better interior. The only problem with either van was a broken wire near the power steering on the ody caused an idle problem but that was fixed. The rear seats on the ody are much more comfortable than the sto&go seats in the T&C. If you need alot of room the sto&go is nice but seats are not good for long trip. Looks wise, well they are mini vans so I don't get to excited about either one. We have leather in the ody with the DVD in the ceiling. We wanted the nav system but it worked out fine, we bought a Lowrance i-way GPS with a 5" screen and use it in what ever one we are driving. The ody mostly get used as a toad. We tow it behind our diesel motorhome. Thats why we bought an ody, it won't hurt the trans to be towed all 4 down. Follow the honda guide lines and it tows fantastic. I like both vans but the honda is our favorite.

 

It's pretty much all been said. One additional point, though:

When comparing for value between the Sienna and Ody, look closely at the standard features each trim level has. When looking for our EX-L we found that because we wanted two power sliding doors and DVD/NAV, a Sienna would have cost upwards of $34k even if we could get one near invoice. Our Ody ran us just over $32.5k. Of course, with the Sienna we would have gotten a power liftgate, etc., but we just found the Ody optioning to be closer to what we needed.

Looking at the standard features of the CE and LX, one of the vans might stand out.

If value really is of PRIME importance and you drive your cars into the ground (making resale value less of an issue), definitely check out the DC vans. The prices are pretty great right now and they really aren't bad cars at all.

Good luck!

 

I got a LX at the beginning of July for 400 over invoice (probably could have done better, but there wasnt any haggling for this.) It actually arrived at the dealer that day and was built in June so it was fresh off the factory. There aren't a ton of LX's out there but it had everything we required (mainly the safety features.) The Toyota would have been a couple of thousand more to get the safety features. We didn't really look into the T&C much because that got expensive with the safety features as well.

 

I'd suggest Ody or the Sienna. I took the Ody up a mountain in the Virginia area for a resort,

And well, it did perfect up steep hills! Sienna will probolly do better with AWD.

 

My advice: if you get the Dodge, be absolutely sure you are comfortable with your dealer. Search very carefully for a good one.

In my experience, the Five Star dealer program is worthless. I had no end of trouble with all of the dealers I had to work with except one (in Auburn, Indiana, so I don't think that will help you). Getting warranty repairs done was a royal pain. In one case, they led me to believe the van was in top condition when the brakes were getting ready to go out; this was right before a interstate move (which was why I took the van in to be checked).

Our experience with Dodge dealers was bad enough that we did not even bother looking at Chrysler when it came time to replace our Dodge GC. Given the forum, I'm sure you can guess what we ended up picking.

 

Had a 1999 Dodge GC SE. Good for two years, then falls apart. New trans, VERY common problem. Almost bought an 05 Dodge SXT. Glad I bought the Ody LX. No comparison, Ody wins on every item. Honda is the only van using rear discs something Toy. missed until you get to the higher 8 models.
05 Dodge owners are complaining about poor gas mileage (again, this has been a Caravan theme).
As a former Porsche tech, I am humbled by the quality and reliability of the Ody.

Audi A4
Porsche 959
Bmw Z1
83 Volvo (w/88 Mustang 5.0)
05 Ody LX

 

He also said I should stay away from the Toyota Previa (if we bought used).

Well, we sold our 95 supercharged Previa with 180k trouble free miles to the first party at asking price and still had tons of calls. The Previa was one of the hottest used vans as I was told due to its reliability.

We were long time Toyota/Lexus fans for 15 yrs and were spoiled with their reliability which was strictly the reason why we bought them. Within the past 2 yrs, I decided to break the tradition to buy cars strictly based on reviews from mags which focus mostly on how the cars drive with of course reliability was still the second priority. We ended up with a Titan and the Ody. Both the Titan and the Ody have issues and they left me wonder about my decision since I'd never test drove the Sienna (I drove the Tundra and still refer the Titan).

We took a trip to Vancouver and rented a van, a Sienna LE with leather. I was excited to drive it but was also nervous to about to find out about my decision and my wife's reaction to it . She had made several complaints how the Ody has all kind of noises (which I eventually eliminated all) in the cabin and threaten to sell it and buy a Sienna.

Well, I was happy. First of all, the Siena's both sliding doors creak loudly and consistently. To make my point, I kept asking my wife where those noises comimg from . Granted it was a rental car but was a also 2005. I am sure my wife won't be critical about the noises in the Ody anymore.

The road noise that hear from the Ody at hyw speed was not worst than what I heard from the Sienna. I must be sensitive with noise.

25 extra horses we get from the Ody make a big diffrence in passing on the hyw. Either that or the Sienna shifts very late, consider it also has a 5-speed, probably typical Toyota's idea of saving gas (from my experience). The Ody shifts up very nice compared to the Sienna but the Sienna doesn't have the funky downshifts when coming to a stop. Whatever Honda try to do, it's not doing vere well.

Interior-wise, I paid attention to the fit and finish as I kept hearing praises from the reviews about Toyota's. This is one area I never care much before. I think the Ody's fit and finish is just as good if not better. Actually, the material used in the Ody look like a better quality. I also like the cleaner dash design of the Ody though a bit busy around the air cond controls knobs which take some time to get use to. The driver's seat was just as comfortable as the Ody's but without the lump that bothers some people here including myself (not anymore). It was a bad idea that Toyota use the shiny black plastic for the center dash trim for this LE level. It doesn't look cheap or anything like that but it sure attracts dirt, lots of it, and sure show well on black surface. Oh, what with the "gated" shift or whatever you call it. There must be a engineering reason for this (I've seen many cars with this kind of shift now a day) but from a user's stand point, it sucks. Every time I shifted to D or R, I had to really look at what I was shifting to. May be it can be used to after a while. I am glad the Ody still has the traditional straight shift but at least with the Sienna, I can shift to 4th gear if I wish .

Finally, the drive/handling/fun factor (not the like a sport car but if you like to drive you know what I mean). This alone, for me, makes the Ody a winner. This is the main reason I why I switched brand. There's no need to go into much details as it's already been discussed here about how well the Ody drives. The Sienna, just as I predicted, over all extremly boring to drive; my 95 Previa has more soul than this car. I was not sure what it was, the body lean, the late upshift (not very responsive trans), the numb steering response or the lack of road feel. All these "compromises" and the interior is not much quieter than the Ody's. Must be the Canadian model . In this area I also like Dogde/Chrysler vans better than Sienna.

One more thing, the Sienna can brake as well but without the grindings.

 

I'd suggest Ody or the Sienna. I took the Ody up a mountain in the Virginia area for a resort,

And well, it did perfect up steep hills! Sienna will probolly do better with AWD.

AWD might be nice until you have a flat (even run flat tires can get sidewall damage an be inoperable) The AWD Sienna's have no spare tire and you are stranded if you damage the sidewall of a run flat. In addition to this, the tires are about $250 a pop, normally special order only, and can only be changed on special expensive machines. So in short, a flat on an AWD Sienna can keep your van in the shop for around a week.

 

Update

It's a little over a week later and we still haven't bought anything.

One of the things that has really annoyed me about looking for a car is the salespeople. First, most of them discounted me immediately because of the car I drive (a beat up 88 Honda Accord). Then, when I finally get someone to start showing us the vehicle, they fail to take the big clues that I tell them: which is sell to my wife since it will be HER car.

Probably the most annoying factor is the lack of respect I got from sales people due to the car I drove. Most just figured I didn't have the money. One particuliar salesperson at a Toyota Dealership kept insisting that we look at Used Cars. I finally told him what I did for a living (I'm a lawyer). His attitude changed immediately. I was disappointed that I had to tell him my occupation for him to treat me seriously. I found this a problem at many dealerships. Problem was always solved after I handed them my business card. Of course, this means that they think I will pay MSRP and not negotiate price. I negotiate everything. I am a lawyer. I also remember the "top salesperson" at a Chevy Dealership walking away from us when I told him I didn't want a gas guzzler SUV. I asked him to convince us why we should buy the Uplander (hello, clue, clue, clue) and he responded with "I don't do the salesperson stuff." Yea, whatever. Obviously, we didn't even really consider the Chevy Uplander (not that it probably had much of a chance). At a Honda Dealership, I said I wasn't going to pay $40K for a minivan (they had the Odyssey Touring). He said, "What is your budget?" I said, "I'm not prepared to tell you how much I will spend." I thought to myself, "Why would I ever give away my negotiating range?" He walked away.

I just don't get it. Selling cars is so easy. All it takes is a little smarts and to know your product. Then, find out what they want and show it to them. Of course, I expect the salesperson to close me. I WANT THE SALES PERSON TO SELL ME. That's why I am at the freaking dealership. Few tried. The Toyota guy tried to close me after I told him what I did for a living, but it was really too late for him unless we buy the CE and he sells it at Invoice. In fact, I found all the Toyota salespeople a bit pushy, but I'd rather have a pushy salesperson than the guy at the Honda dealership or the Chevy dealership.

Thanks for reading that little diatribe.

We checked out the Mazada M5 and it's a cool car/wagon. Unfortunately, it's way too small for our needs.

We went and took a look at the GC again. No offense to GC owners but it just seems cheap compared to the Ody/Sienna. The funny thing is that the GC makes the FreeStar/Uplander look like a joke.

After second test drives of both the Ody and Sienna, We've decided that we're leaning towards the Ody. I realize that the Sienna is a better made and more reliable car. I also realize I can get the Sienna at or below invoice (for a cheaper price than the Ody). Both these points bother me greatly.

Nevertheless, I like my wife to be happy. She likes the Ody so that's where we are probably going. ...Unless, they refuse to deal. I won't pay MSRP. I'm willing to drive anywhere in the State of Washington to get a fair price (around invoice). I'll even go to Oregon.

I hear you should wait until the end of the month before you start trying to buy a car. So I figure I'll start faxing dealerships around the 29th of August and see what we get. Who knows maybe someone will give a decent offer.

 

Yes, wait till the end of the month and you should get a better deal.

We owned a 1998 Sienna Ce, and we loved it. We made 5 6000 km Road trips with it, between Saskatchewan and Toronto and no problems at ALL.

We traded it in April for the Oddy because the dealer gave us a good trade in for it ($11995 Cdn) . It had around 112K on it. The Honda dealer in the small town (Stratford) was very friendly and helpful.

Either one vehicle is GOOD. Oddy or Sienna. I personally think the Oddy has a more sporty feel than the Sienna, but the Sienna is a little quieter and a slightly softer ride.

Caravans suck because they are cheaply made...and not reliable.

 

It's good to see people who have LXs!! It's the only trim level my parents would consider because of the price. (Even an EX is too expensive for them at $26,000 or more...)

Those of you who have LXs...how do you like them so far? (Sorry, I know this is an off-topic post)
Are you ever sorry you didn't get an EX or higher?

Thanks.

Good luck, arretium!!