timing belt timing is off?

4640 Views 9 Replies 3 Participants Last post by SuperDad, Oct 20, 2008

royta

Discussion Starter · Oct 8, 2008

I had the timing belt changed a few months ago by a shop my friend owns. No, it is not a Honda dealership, but they work on Hondas all the time. It came back with an issue, that after searching on this forum, that I believe to be caused by the idle air control valve. The engine would not idle when cold. This is mostly only noticed upon first start up of the day. Obviously now, I feel it was just a coincidental occurance that the idle air control valve would start acting up after getting it back from the shop.

Before realizing I had an idle air control valve problem, I initially thought the timing belt could be a tooth or so off. This evening I pulled the idle air control valve and sprayed out the inside with carb cleaner. Since I was already doing some wrenching, I decided to verify the timing belt marks were aligned correctly. I found that both cam pulleys were off by exactly one tooth counterclockwise.

I took a few pictures shown below, and then reinstalled the cam pulley covers to verify the notch on the cam pulley aligned with the inspection hole on the front of the pulley cover. They did not align. I then turned the crank pulley clockwise to the point where the cam pulleys aligned with their respective notches. The white mark on the crank pulley was now about an inch to right of the arrow.

Because both cam pulleys are off by exactly one tooth, I'm wondering if this is normal, or if there is a service bulletin on this saying this is how the cams are to be timed with the crank. I guess it is possible the crank were rotated by one tooth, but it almost seems unlikely because of the fact the crank turns two degrees for every one degree of the cams turning.

I'm wondering if the computer would throw a code if the cam pulleys were only off by one tooth, or perhaps the computer is able to compensate for such a small change. As it is now, the cam timing is retarded by one tooth relative to TDC of the crank.

Any Honda techs out there that know the scoop on a 2004 Honday Odyssey? Ideas?

The arrow is lined up with white mark on crank pulley.

I drew a line across belt directly over mark on cam pulley. As you can see, it does not align with mark on engine case.

I did the same for the rear cam pulley.

You can view all images at http://mynetimages.com/album/roymtbkr/honda_odyssey/.

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SuperDad

· #2 · Oct 8, 2008

Ya, its screwed up.

It is actually the same thing, whether both the cam sprockets are off by one tooth or the crank is off by one tooth.

The good news is that it can probably be fixed without too much difficulty, by getting some slack into that belt and hopping it by one tooth. You will probably need a helper to do the change, or just take it back to the shop and tell them they screwed up.

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royta

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 8, 2008

SuperDad said:
It is actually the same thing, whether both the cam sprockets are off by one tooth or the crank is off by one tooth.

LOL. Yeah, I know that.

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rberman999

· #4 · Oct 19, 2008

royta,

Every timing belt I have ever done I have always turned the crank (by hand) two full revolutions. Then recheck the marks, the marks on the cam sprockets and the crank sprocket. Forget about the marks on the timing belt, they would take many revolutions to get back in alignment with the cam and crank marks. This is done to check the belt alignment and that the correct tension has been applied to the belt. Hope this is of help to someone. Russ.

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royta

Discussion Starter · #5 · Oct 19, 2008

rberman999 said:
royta,

Every timing belt I have ever done I have always turned the crank (by hand) two full revolutions. Then recheck the marks, the marks on the cam sprockets and the crank sprocket. Forget about the marks on the timing belt, they would take many revolutions to get back in alignment with the cam and crank marks. This is done to check the belt alignment and that the correct tension has been applied to the belt. Hope this is of help to someone. Russ.

I put the marks on the belt itself to help illustrate to the shop owner there was a problem. My wife brought it down the Thursday after I started this thread and they corrected it. She's been in Southern California for the last week, but there haven't been any issues with starting the engine when it is cold in the morning. She'll be home this evening, so tomorrow will be the real test. I'm pretty sure there are no problems with the idle air control / rotary valve.

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SuperDad

· #6 · Oct 19, 2008

So, now that its fixed...

How much did the job cost originally? Did you have them do the water pump and tensioner at the same tiime as the belt?

How much gas do you think you wasted with the cams off by 5 degrees for a couple months?

How much time did you use figuring out the problem? How much time did you and your wife waste returning to the shop for the re-repair?

Will you be returning to that shop?

Note: I'm not saying a real Honda technician couldn't have made the mistake, but I do wonder if there is better oversight/rechecking in a Honda shop.

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royta

Discussion Starter · #7 · Oct 19, 2008

SuperDad said:
So, now that its fixed...

How much did the job cost originally? Did you have them do the water pump and tensioner at the same tiime as the belt?

How much gas do you think you wasted with the cams off by 5 degrees for a couple months?

How much time did you use figuring out the problem? How much time did you and your wife waste returning to the shop for the re-repair?

Will you be returning to that shop?

Note: I'm not saying a real Honda technician couldn't have made the mistake, but I do wonder if there is better oversight/rechecking in a Honda shop.

How much did the job cost originally? Did you have them do the water pump and tensioner at the same tiime as the belt?
I don't have the invoice near me. I'm doing trade work anyway, so there is no real money changing hands. Yes on the water pump & tensioner.

How much gas do you think you wasted with the cams off by 5 degrees for a couple months?
Hard to say. I try not to let it bother me. I can tell you we certainly put some mileage on the car.

How much time did you use figuring out the problem? How much time did you and your wife waste returning to the shop for the re-repair?
I spent a few hours on it. My wife spent a half day with the car at the shop, but a friend picked her up and they spent the day shopping. No big loss there.

Will you be returning to that shop?
Most certainly. My friend owns the shop.

Note: I'm not saying a real Honda technician couldn't have made the mistake, but I do wonder if there is better oversight/rechecking in a Honda shop.
That would depend on the shop. I can tell you Honda of Corona has lousy oversight/rechecking. Thankfully we no longer live in Corona. Anyway, the rear main seal went out on our Odyssey and we had them fix it. I am still finding wire harness mounting brackets that were disconnected. One of which requires a bolt to fasten. That is where "flat rate" work is no good for the customer.

The tech who screwed up on the timing belt made a mistake. He's done probably done hundreds of timing belts before. Everybody has a bad day. Your Odyssey was built by Honda. Has it been in the shop for warranty repairs? Oh wait, I thought Honda shops were the end all be all of shops?

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SuperDad

· #8 · Oct 20, 2008

My Odyssey has never had ANY warrantee repairs done on it.

It went in for the 2002 transmission recall work. Other than that, it hasn't needed any non-wear related repairs. Its at about 95k miles now, and I haven't needed to do any real work on it aside from tire replacement, fluid changes, and finally brakes(rear pads/rotors, front pads) about 2 months ago. I do all my own work once a cars out of warrantee, except for tire/alignments.

I dunno, having the wife go shopping with a friend all day could be more expensive than a timing belt change

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rberman999

· #9 · Oct 20, 2008

SuperDad,

No warranty repairs on an Odyssey, that is almost unbelievable. I have always done all my own work prior to warranty expiration or not. Just can't afford to pay a dealership the type of money they want, although I did pay for some tranny fluid changes, coolant fluid changes and the timing belt service in hopes of keeping good will alive for the eventual tranny change out (should I ever need it). I needed a gas tank sensor after the first week of ownership, EGR service (extended), O2 sensors and Cat. converter (just over 80K miles but likely due to EGR), and tried pushing for the damage caused by a failed coil spring via good will (so much for throwing a bone to the dealership). All the items other than the coil spring damage were under warranty or extended warranty. Never owned a vehicle other than the Odyssey that needed so much "warranty" work. Hope to never own another vehicle that needs that much either. Likely will never buy Honda "new" again as the Odyssey has been less than expected from MY standpoint having owned (and still own) CR-V with 225K miles and Civic with 131K miles (both bought used) and only extended warranty work done on those vehicles. Buy the way I have not found Honda service to be anything to brag about, all three times they have changed out my tranny fluid they have overfilled the amount required by approximately a quart. Not a big deal but none the less a hassle that I had to deal with (not worth bring back to Honda for) and two of the three coolant changes, the coolant reservoir was under filled. Could be the dealership I dealt with but more likely the feeling that the mechanics knew the "right" amount of fluids to add rather than doing the service and then checking for proper fluid level. Oh well, live and learn. Russ

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SuperDad

· #10 · Oct 20, 2008

My 1994 Integra GSR is still running like new, at 185k miles. It was the 346th delivered to the US, in August 1993. 29 mpg driven hard, including a computer mod that lets it run right up to 8600rpm.

15 years old, and the thing that'll kill it will be the rust. How sad. I could fix the rust, but I don't think its worth the time. It has no fewer than 7 areas where the rust is becoming a notable problem.

I'm now debating whether to change the timing belt or hope it doesn't fail before selling/dumping it. Seems silly to drop an afternoon and $200 on a TB change for a car which has a resale value of maybe $1500. I suspect it will also need a new clutch in the next year. I can do it, but I just don't think its worth the effort.

Maybe its time to turn it into an extra manly 180hp snowthrower.

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