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Transmission slipping - additives recommended?

33K views 134 replies 22 participants last post by  odydwc 
#1 ·
So I just bought a used 2014 Odyssey and during slow acceleration, it feels like the transmission slips just a bit. I can sometimes even see the RPM gauge jump and fall a little. The Honda dealership said that it is time for a transmission fluid flush. My question is, does anybody recommend using the Lucas Transmission or similar additives when having this done? Do you guys think that a flush will actually fix the problem?
 
#2 ·
Yes, changing the ATF will really fix the problem. And no, you probably don't need any additional additives for now. I use Lubegard Red as extra protection based on the advice of some of the oldtimers around here, but I think you should avoid introducing too many variables into the transmission service until you are more certain that everything really is OK. Simply changing the ATF should do it for you.

If you're inclined to DIY, changing the ATF on a 2014 Odyssey is extremely easy. It's less complicated than changing the engine oil and filter.
 
#3 ·
If you're inclined to DIY, changing the ATF on a 2014 Odyssey is extremely easy. It's less complicated than changing the engine oil and filter.
Yes! I'm pretty handy and have changed my engine oil in the past on some other vehicles. But I don't have a lift in case that's needed (read somewhere that you have to rev the engine to allow it to cycle through some gears while on the lift). Also, I was under the impression that flushing is more than just changing the ATF - meaning that multiple changes equal a flush. Can you provide the steps and where to locate the drain?
 
#4 ·
You don't need a lift. Shops use them to avoid having to drive the vehicle around - you don't have that restriction. You don't even really need to jack up the front of the van; the transmission drain plug can be reached from the front without jacking. You might want to the first time just to give yourself a chance to orient yourself a bit better.

This post turned lengthy but the instructions and pictures at the beginning are very good and thorough.


And yes, three drain-and-fills are considered to have changed out enough fluid for it to be considered fully refreshed. If memory serves, it's actually about 87% of the fluid but it really is close enough for all intents and purposes.
 
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#42 · (Edited)
You don't need a lift. Shops use them to avoid having to drive the vehicle around - you don't have that restriction. You don't even really need to jack up the front of the van; the transmission drain plug can be reached from the front without jacking. You might want to the first time just to give yourself a chance to orient yourself a bit better.

This post turned lengthy but the instructions and pictures at the beginning are very good and thorough.


And yes, three drain-and-fills are considered to have changed out enough fluid for it to be considered fully refreshed. If memory serves, it's actually about 87% of the fluid but it really is close enough for all intents and purposes.
I drive my vehicle up on ramps made from 2x12 lumber, double thinkness, the top one shorter than the bottom one, with a stop at the end, so I don't drive off of the end. Then there's jackstands for working underneath. No lift reqiuired.
 
#7 ·
No, not within a reasonable margin of error. The difference in fuel consumption I saw was negligible but the difference in drivability and responsiveness and reliability was significant.

VCM was primarily designed to ace the EPA fuel economy test. Honda needed it because they don't sell enough Civics and Fits and HR-Vs to offset the number of Odysseys and Pilots and Ridgelines and MDXs they sell. Toyota gets around this with their outstanding hybrid program - it's why the Tundra can be such a horrible gas pig for all these years and no one seems to care.

If VCM happens to decrease your fuel consumption in real life, that's icing on the cake as far as Honda's concerned - they'll be happy for you if that's the case. But they don't care if it doesn't, so you don't need to feel bad about disabling VCM. Your van will be better for it.
 
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#11 ·
have had really good luck with oem Tranny fluid (Dw-1).

I tried the Valvoline full synthetic and when my van started shifting hard almost immediately with that, I went back to oem after 5,000 miles. Oem shifting has been decisive and smooth shifts, even with pulling popup camper (why I looked at switching). I just change oem Tranny fluid every oil change and it keeps it nice.
 
#9 ·
My mechanic highly recommends the Castrol Transmax.

I personally use Valvoline MaxLife. I think that both the Transmax and MaxLife are synthetic fluids. OEM Honda fluid is not synthetic. It's never wrong to go with OEM fluid, but the synthetic fluid works well with our cars and should be more heat-resistant than the OEM fluid.
 
#10 ·
I’ve only used Honda DW1 OEM fluid. Always do the 3X drain and fill procedure. Running strong at 220K+ miles with zero issues. Just do the 3x CHANGE AT 30-35K MILE INTERVALS.

If you do a lot of stop and go traffic best to also install one of the Tru-Cool transmission coolers. Good time to also change the transmission filter when you do that at the same time. Honda uses an inline filter that I typically replace every other transmission service.
 
#12 ·
So...How many miles on this 2014? While you can do the trans fluid changes yourself, it is wise to have the software update(s) done as the service bulletin provides for. If you are well out of warranty, you would have to pay for that.
You should replace all the fluid, but you can do that over time. Like three weekends or the next three oil changes. Most folks report amazing improvements with just one change. Depending on the current miles and previous maintainence (or lack of it) it could be quite past due for some fluid changes. ALL Hondas require regular transmission fluid changes. Most folks don't realize that.
The issue these particular transmissions exhibit is called a "judder" in Honda speak. When combined with the VCM kicking in or out it can seem like big trouble. Probably isn't.
 
#13 ·
My Odyssey has 63K miles. Probably hasn't ever had the ATF changed. I'm guessing it's out of warranty, but how do I find out? Also, I wasn't aware of a software update either. Does that need to be done?

I will be pulling a small 4x3 covered trailer through the mountains this fall. Would a transmission cooler be recommended and really make that much difference? Also didn't realize there was a filter for the transmission that needs changed but I guess that makes sense.
 
#14 ·
Do you have a trusted/well rated dealer nearby? BEFORE you do any fluid changes take your van to the dealer with the old fluid/hard shifting and ask them about the software update and fluid swap on THEIR dime. Once you start to change fluids the bad behavior goes away, you take it to the dealer then and they'll say we can't find anything but we'll do a 3x Trans Fluid swap and software update for $500-750!

If you're towing yes, you need a transmission cooler. What size depends on the weight and loading and where you live (Texas in summer towing versus Quebec are two different things!). No towing in our lives but 5 people in our van in Central Ohio and we're running a TruCool 4454 with a Magnefine inline filter in place too (which I'll replace every 20-25k miles). While I was in there I also did the original OEM Trans Filter, probably unnecessary but since I was already there I thought what the heck.

We're running Valvoline ATF MaxLife, I've not had any issues with hard shifting or the like. But I may go to a DW-1 and MaxLife back and forth swap routine going forward, every other change swap brands/type. That way some of both are in the trans at all times.

Once you've been to the dealer, gotten the 3x fluid swap and software update it's time to MUZZLE that van. Loose the ECO/VCM crapola. On the highway our van actually get better gas mileage with the VCM off, loaded and had highway speeds we've pulled 32 mpg in the Ohio flatlands, a little more hilly and we're still at 30+ mpg. That doesn't seem to be everyone's results but it's what we've experienced (and checked manually at the pump I might add, data not just from the computer!).

Good luck!
 
#15 ·
Thanks. I called the Honda dealer and they told me they don't usually do a software update with the ATF flush. They said it's an additional $110 to do that update though if I want it. I'll look into buying a Trans cooler. I presume you mean the 4544 rather than the 4454?
 
#17 ·
they told me they don't usually do a software update with the ATF flush.
Of course not - they'd rather charge the customer. If you are having symptoms that are covered by the TSB, then they should be doing it oh Honda's dime instead of yours.

OR, you can just get the fluid change regularly and it'll also be just fine. If you can do it yourself, it is easy and cheap to do as part of your oil change routine (every 2nd or 3rd oil change).

If you are pulling a trailer, put a trans cooler on there. Towing is 'not allowed' unless you have a trans cooler. (I'm sure if you got a ScanGauge II or other OBD-II monitor you could watch your trans temps and know how things are going rather than guess) The OEM trans filter is not a regular maintenance item, but you can replace it if you really want...

-Charlie
 
#19 ·
The transmission software update was like night and day for my 2011 6 speed. Later 6 speeds hopefully got that same update but sounds like they did not and it’s only applied if the TSB is called out for judder.

If towing the Tru-Cool 4454 is popular and a proven performer. I used the massive 4590 and used the thermostat valve. I was regularly towing a dual axle enclosed trailer so I went big. A good choice if you abuse this thing. Even if you don’t tow I’d seriously consider the 4454 just to keep stop and go temps within reason. For every 10 degrees of temp rise fluid life goes down in a exponential manner. By the time you see 250 degree fluid temps you may be lucky to get 10K miles out of the fluid.

If in any situation you had slip or overheating I would immediately do the 3X change. A single drain and fill works if you have done this from day one. Most folks asking questions like you are have 60K+ miles on their vans. It makes no sense to leave 66% of the worn out fluid in the system. Start fresh then single drain and fill per oil change can work. 3x drain and fill is not just because we like to waste fluid. It takes 3 D&Fs to replace the used fluid trapped inside the torque converter. A standard drain will not drain that converter fluid.
 
#22 ·
A flush with a pump driven machine should NEVER be used.
Just and FYI - Honda uses the term "flush" to describe the 3x drain/fill technique they use. It can get confusing...

So I'm still pondering the update that my dealership seemed surprised to hear me ask about. They told me that nobody has ever asked about that when getting ATF flush. Is this the correct service bulletin that I would want to point them to for the update? https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10129797-9999.pdf
Just note that for the TSB to apply, they have to actually get a snapshot with data that proves the 'judder' is happening.

-Charlie
 
#24 ·
Your 2013 LX has the 5 speed auto, that didn't require a software update. 2011-2013 Touring & Elite models came with a 6 speed auto, that was standard on all trims starting in 2014.
 
#25 · (Edited)
So I took my van to a local transmission shop who specializes in only transmissions. He was a younger guy, but he took it for a drive and felt the judder and diagnosed it as being caused by "buildup on the torque converter". He said a transmission flush with some chemical additive should resolve the issue.

Interestingly, his assessment with the torque converter matches up with the Bulletin by Honda that I provided in the link above. Per the Bulletin:

The judder is caused by deteriorated transmission fluid. The transmission fluid deteriorates quicker than expected when it is exposed to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions. A software update is available to maintain the transmission fluid temperature within the desirable range under all driving conditions and eliminate the potential for this judder.

There are two bulletins referring to this subject:

• 17-043 - 2014–17 Odyssey: Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch. Do this bulletin first to apply the software and flush the transmission as indicated in the REPAIR PROCEDURE.

• 17-044 - 2014–17 Odyssey: Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch After Software Update. Some vehicles based on how they are driven may still experience ATF deterioration after updating the PGM-FI or A/T system. In these cases, do the inspection and, if necessary, flush the transmission as indicated in the REPAIR PROCEDURE.
I'm still planning to do the change myself. But the Bulletin says to do the software update FIRST. Uncertain why that is significant though.
 
#26 ·
Update: Since my van is a "rebuilt" title, the dealership won't perform the service bulletin (sofware update) for free even though I fall within the 8 years/80k miles. They also stated that to do the software update, the flush will also need to be completed at the same time - even if it's fresh fluid. He said something about it calibrating while the fluid is being changed and refilled.

I'm going to skip the software update and just change the fluid myself. If the judder is still present, maybe the VCM muzzler will resolve. If not, then I'll take it back in and have them do the software update with flush.

Do I really need the ATF filter?
 
#34 ·
Update: Since my van is a "rebuilt" title, the dealership won't perform the service bulletin (sofware update) for free even though I fall within the 8 years/80k miles. They also stated that to do the software update, the flush will also need to be completed at the same time - even if it's fresh fluid. He said something about it calibrating while the fluid is being changed and refilled.

I'm going to skip the software update and just change the fluid myself. If the judder is still present, maybe the VCM muzzler will resolve. If not, then I'll take it back in and have them do the software update with flush.

Do I really need the ATF filter?
I was replying to the comment in bold.
 
#27 ·
So, now the whole story is revealed. How did they check for that? Did you disclose? Anyway, you are now in the replace the fluid yourself and hope for the best category. As long as you keep up with regular normal 1/3 fluid changes (after having done the full "flush") you will probably be fine.

ATF filters are for the obsessed. (not that there is anything wrong with that) If you want to be obsessive, change the fluid at least every other oil change going forward. You will probably get more out of that than a filter.
 
#28 ·
To fulfill a service bulletin they run the VIN number. Not sure what you mean by “hope for the best”. I can still get their service, with the difference being that I have to pay for it.

I’ll skip the ATF filter. Thanks for the advice.
 
#29 ·
Well you can still pay them to actually update the software. If money is tight (you did buy a salvage title vehicle) then buying a case of fluid and doing the multiple changes yourself is your best option. I did say you will probably be fine. I know I was with my previous 2002 with a known weak transmission. Sold it with the original trans at 246k. Changed the fluid every other oil change on that one and plan on doing the same with the 2015 I just bought. It has such low miles I have not experienced any judder and don't know if the software was ever updated by the previous owner. I did install a Muzzler and it is already much smoother. You should definitely do that!
 
#30 · (Edited)
I am very sure that my 2015 has not had the transmission software update done (because I have done every last speck of the transmission maintenance on it so far) and we have had ZERO performance issues. I'm not sure just how critical the software update really is.

Staying vigilant on refreshing the ATF regularly and paying attention to the transmission's behaviour should be enough to keep things healthy. Adding an external cooler is probably a good idea in the southern US, but I haven't yet found a need for that up in Canada. Of course if you're towing anywhere, you should have a cooler. Our van shifts imperceptibly under normal driving conditions and changes gears decisively when you put your foot into it.
 
#32 ·
Muzzling the VCM will do nothing for a torque converter judder issue caused by fluid break down. Not saying you shouldn't add a Muzzler (because you should) but it won't help this issue.
 
#35 ·
You might look into a product called LubeGard. It is a friction modifier, and often will produce positive results when added to the factory-recommended transmission fluids. it is not a substitute for a fluid change, but can smooth out issues like shuddering, minor slippage and rough shifting. I haven't heard of anyone who experienced adverse effects from it's use.

I would avoid using additives by Lucas, or in general, from any other additive manufacturer. Remember the device on auto parts countertops where you crank it and watch the lube cling to the gears with the Lucas additive? Well, the added viscosity doesn't do much of anything for a factory recommended fluid, but it will generate extra heat. STP was an oil thickener made from a soap base. That might have reduced oil consumption in a worn-out engine from years past. In their owners manuals. most auto manufacturers discourage the use of any additives in their vehicles.

Another exception to the no-additives rule of thumb is a gasoline additive called Chevron with Techron, or a second fuel additive called Chemtrol B-12. Both of these additives have a positive effect by partly dissolving carbon and other deposits on valves and pistons. You can hear the difference in the exhaust smoothness comparing the exhaust note before and after use. There may be other useful additives, but in my experience, using most additives is throwing away money for something that may not be good for your vehicle.

Maybe someone with more experience than me would second the use of LubeGard?
 
#36 ·
My Lubegard and Techron experiences:

We have a 2002 EX and 2003 EX. Much earlier in these vans' lives, they would occasionally harshly engage when we would select reverse after the van sat overnight. They would do it all the time if nighttime temperatures were really cold, and the harsh engagement was much worse. I switched to synthetic ATF (Valvoline MaxLife), and that mitigated much of this problem, but not all of it.

Jerry O posted his experiences on how Lubegard red bottle helped the 41TE transmission in his Dodge Caravan not just work more smoothly and positively, but it also lasted many miles. This transmission was not known for durability. On reading this, I decided to try it in our pair of Gen 2 Odysseys.

Adding a full 10-ounce bottle of Lugebard Red to each van made an immediate difference. This essentially stopped the harsh reverse engagement problem for many, many, many years. I continued to use Lubegard at a ratio of 1 ounce per quart of ATF whenever I did a drain/refill of ATF, even after I switched to AmSOil ATF (Valvoline MaxLife had become difficult to find one year in my area, so I ordered AmSOil online). Finally, as both vans reached 200,000 miles on their original transmissions, the harsh reverse engagement occasionally came back last winter. Chalking this up to old age. They are now at 205,000 and 202,000 miles on original running gear.

We had a badly shuddering 4-speed AT on our 1998 Honda Accord. It had about 174,000 miles when we bought it, the ATF was black when I drained it. Did several drains/refills with Dexron III to "make the ATF red" again, then 3 or 4 more ATF drains/refills with Honda ATF-Z1. Shuddering on acceleration reduced, but still very annoying. Endured this for a while. Finally, I added about 7 or 8 ounces of Lubegard red bottle, shuddering immediately and markedly reduced, and over the course of a few more days of driving, stopped completely. 225,000 miles, the transmission has never been rebuilt, and it still shifts smoothly.

We once purchased a 1986 Honda Civic CRX HF that had been sitting for many months following a wreck. I performed DIY repairs (grill, radiator, headlight, and so on). That little carburetor looked horribly complex, and it was gummed up, probably had varnish in the float bowl, and the vehicle ran horribly (had to hold throttle just to maintain idle, delivered very poor MPG, and that was the least of its driveability problems). I had rebuilt Holly, Weber and Carter carbs, but I absolutely did not want to tackle this one. A mechanic recommended Chevron Techron. I added a bottle to a full tank and drove it down to almost empty. That little car ran much better, but still ran a little rough. I think I ran three bottles through three tanks of gas, total, and slowly but surely ended up with a very smoothly running CRX HF that easily achieved nearly 50 mpg in purely city driving during the three years I owned it.

OF
 
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