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Yes correct. BTW flush vs. drain and fill are dramatically different. A flush with a pump driven machine should NEVER be used. It can stir up contaminated fluid and causes more issues than it fixes. The drain and refill is the accepted procedure.
 

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A flush with a pump driven machine should NEVER be used.
Just and FYI - Honda uses the term "flush" to describe the 3x drain/fill technique they use. It can get confusing...

So I'm still pondering the update that my dealership seemed surprised to hear me ask about. They told me that nobody has ever asked about that when getting ATF flush. Is this the correct service bulletin that I would want to point them to for the update? https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2018/MC-10129797-9999.pdf
Just note that for the TSB to apply, they have to actually get a snapshot with data that proves the 'judder' is happening.

-Charlie
 

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I have never done the software updates in my 2013 Ody LX ( base model) but change my trans fluid with Valoline Maxlife. Where is the Transmission filter on a 2013? I have not changed it. Fluid will fix your issue, these guys know what they are talking about. :)
 

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I have never done the software updates in my 2013 Ody LX ( base model) but change my trans fluid with Valoline Maxlife. Where is the Transmission filter on a 2013? I have not changed it. Fluid will fix your issue, these guys know what they are talking about. :)
Your 2013 LX has the 5 speed auto, that didn't require a software update. 2011-2013 Touring & Elite models came with a 6 speed auto, that was standard on all trims starting in 2014.
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
So I took my van to a local transmission shop who specializes in only transmissions. He was a younger guy, but he took it for a drive and felt the judder and diagnosed it as being caused by "buildup on the torque converter". He said a transmission flush with some chemical additive should resolve the issue.

Interestingly, his assessment with the torque converter matches up with the Bulletin by Honda that I provided in the link above. Per the Bulletin:

The judder is caused by deteriorated transmission fluid. The transmission fluid deteriorates quicker than expected when it is exposed to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions. A software update is available to maintain the transmission fluid temperature within the desirable range under all driving conditions and eliminate the potential for this judder.

There are two bulletins referring to this subject:

• 17-043 - 2014–17 Odyssey: Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch. Do this bulletin first to apply the software and flush the transmission as indicated in the REPAIR PROCEDURE.

• 17-044 - 2014–17 Odyssey: Judder from the Torque Converter Lock-Up Clutch After Software Update. Some vehicles based on how they are driven may still experience ATF deterioration after updating the PGM-FI or A/T system. In these cases, do the inspection and, if necessary, flush the transmission as indicated in the REPAIR PROCEDURE.
I'm still planning to do the change myself. But the Bulletin says to do the software update FIRST. Uncertain why that is significant though.
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Update: Since my van is a "rebuilt" title, the dealership won't perform the service bulletin (sofware update) for free even though I fall within the 8 years/80k miles. They also stated that to do the software update, the flush will also need to be completed at the same time - even if it's fresh fluid. He said something about it calibrating while the fluid is being changed and refilled.

I'm going to skip the software update and just change the fluid myself. If the judder is still present, maybe the VCM muzzler will resolve. If not, then I'll take it back in and have them do the software update with flush.

Do I really need the ATF filter?
 

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So, now the whole story is revealed. How did they check for that? Did you disclose? Anyway, you are now in the replace the fluid yourself and hope for the best category. As long as you keep up with regular normal 1/3 fluid changes (after having done the full "flush") you will probably be fine.

ATF filters are for the obsessed. (not that there is anything wrong with that) If you want to be obsessive, change the fluid at least every other oil change going forward. You will probably get more out of that than a filter.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
To fulfill a service bulletin they run the VIN number. Not sure what you mean by “hope for the best”. I can still get their service, with the difference being that I have to pay for it.

I’ll skip the ATF filter. Thanks for the advice.
 

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Well you can still pay them to actually update the software. If money is tight (you did buy a salvage title vehicle) then buying a case of fluid and doing the multiple changes yourself is your best option. I did say you will probably be fine. I know I was with my previous 2002 with a known weak transmission. Sold it with the original trans at 246k. Changed the fluid every other oil change on that one and plan on doing the same with the 2015 I just bought. It has such low miles I have not experienced any judder and don't know if the software was ever updated by the previous owner. I did install a Muzzler and it is already much smoother. You should definitely do that!
 

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I am very sure that my 2015 has not had the transmission software update done (because I have done every last speck of the transmission maintenance on it so far) and we have had ZERO performance issues. I'm not sure just how critical the software update really is.

Staying vigilant on refreshing the ATF regularly and paying attention to the transmission's behaviour should be enough to keep things healthy. Adding an external cooler is probably a good idea in the southern US, but I haven't yet found a need for that up in Canada. Of course if you're towing anywhere, you should have a cooler. Our van shifts imperceptibly under normal driving conditions and changes gears decisively when you put your foot into it.
 

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Muzzling the VCM will do nothing for a torque converter judder issue caused by fluid break down. Not saying you shouldn't add a Muzzler (because you should) but it won't help this issue.
 

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Muzzling the VCM will do nothing for a torque converter judder issue caused by fluid break down. Not saying you shouldn't add a Muzzler (because you should) but it won't help this issue.
No one here has suggested that a Muzzler will fix this in the absence of replacing the fluid. With 62K, he is past due in any case.
 

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Update: Since my van is a "rebuilt" title, the dealership won't perform the service bulletin (sofware update) for free even though I fall within the 8 years/80k miles. They also stated that to do the software update, the flush will also need to be completed at the same time - even if it's fresh fluid. He said something about it calibrating while the fluid is being changed and refilled.

I'm going to skip the software update and just change the fluid myself. If the judder is still present, maybe the VCM muzzler will resolve. If not, then I'll take it back in and have them do the software update with flush.

Do I really need the ATF filter?
I was replying to the comment in bold.
 

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So I just bought a used 2014 Odyssey and during slow acceleration, it feels like the transmission slips just a bit. I can sometimes even see the RPM gauge jump and fall a little. The Honda dealership said that it is time for a transmission fluid flush. My question is, does anybody recommend using the Lucas Transmission or similar additives when having this done? Do you guys think that a flush will actually fix the problem?

You might look into a product called LubeGard. It is a friction modifier, and often will produce positive results when added to the factory-recommended transmission fluids. it is not a substitute for a fluid change, but can smooth out issues like shuddering, minor slippage and rough shifting. I haven't heard of anyone who experienced adverse effects from it's use.

I would avoid using additives by Lucas, or in general, from any other additive manufacturer. Remember the device on auto parts countertops where you crank it and watch the lube cling to the gears with the Lucas additive? Well, the added viscosity doesn't do much of anything for a factory recommended fluid, but it will generate extra heat. STP was an oil thickener made from a soap base. That might have reduced oil consumption in a worn-out engine from years past. In their owners manuals. most auto manufacturers discourage the use of any additives in their vehicles.

Another exception to the no-additives rule of thumb is a gasoline additive called Chevron with Techron, or a second fuel additive called Chemtrol B-12. Both of these additives have a positive effect by partly dissolving carbon and other deposits on valves and pistons. You can hear the difference in the exhaust smoothness comparing the exhaust note before and after use. There may be other useful additives, but in my experience, using most additives is throwing away money for something that may not be good for your vehicle.

Maybe someone with more experience than me would second the use of LubeGard?
 

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My Lubegard and Techron experiences:

We have a 2002 EX and 2003 EX. Much earlier in these vans' lives, they would occasionally harshly engage when we would select reverse after the van sat overnight. They would do it all the time if nighttime temperatures were really cold, and the harsh engagement was much worse. I switched to synthetic ATF (Valvoline MaxLife), and that mitigated much of this problem, but not all of it.

Jerry O posted his experiences on how Lubegard red bottle helped the 41TE transmission in his Dodge Caravan not just work more smoothly and positively, but it also lasted many miles. This transmission was not known for durability. On reading this, I decided to try it in our pair of Gen 2 Odysseys.

Adding a full 10-ounce bottle of Lugebard Red to each van made an immediate difference. This essentially stopped the harsh reverse engagement problem for many, many, many years. I continued to use Lubegard at a ratio of 1 ounce per quart of ATF whenever I did a drain/refill of ATF, even after I switched to AmSOil ATF (Valvoline MaxLife had become difficult to find one year in my area, so I ordered AmSOil online). Finally, as both vans reached 200,000 miles on their original transmissions, the harsh reverse engagement occasionally came back last winter. Chalking this up to old age. They are now at 205,000 and 202,000 miles on original running gear.

We had a badly shuddering 4-speed AT on our 1998 Honda Accord. It had about 174,000 miles when we bought it, the ATF was black when I drained it. Did several drains/refills with Dexron III to "make the ATF red" again, then 3 or 4 more ATF drains/refills with Honda ATF-Z1. Shuddering on acceleration reduced, but still very annoying. Endured this for a while. Finally, I added about 7 or 8 ounces of Lubegard red bottle, shuddering immediately and markedly reduced, and over the course of a few more days of driving, stopped completely. 225,000 miles, the transmission has never been rebuilt, and it still shifts smoothly.

We once purchased a 1986 Honda Civic CRX HF that had been sitting for many months following a wreck. I performed DIY repairs (grill, radiator, headlight, and so on). That little carburetor looked horribly complex, and it was gummed up, probably had varnish in the float bowl, and the vehicle ran horribly (had to hold throttle just to maintain idle, delivered very poor MPG, and that was the least of its driveability problems). I had rebuilt Holly, Weber and Carter carbs, but I absolutely did not want to tackle this one. A mechanic recommended Chevron Techron. I added a bottle to a full tank and drove it down to almost empty. That little car ran much better, but still ran a little rough. I think I ran three bottles through three tanks of gas, total, and slowly but surely ended up with a very smoothly running CRX HF that easily achieved nearly 50 mpg in purely city driving during the three years I owned it.

OF
 
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Discussion Starter #37
Thanks for the tips! I found several Lubegard products including: Lubegard 19610 Instant Shudder Fixx, Lubegard 60902 Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant, Lubegard 61910 Highly Friction Modified ATF Supplement, and Lubegard 63010 Platinum Universal ATF Protectant. Which do you recommend?

The Techron sounds like some good stuff for carburetors. Wonder if I could use that in my small engines as well to avoid buying new ones every few years. I already use fuel stabilizer and Startron for those.

While we are talking about additives, I had noisy lifters in my 07 Odyssey. Added Marvel Engine Oil to the last oil change and the noise disappeared. Maybe because it's warmer though it has become less noticeable. Was planning to go with Lucas Oil Stabilizer for the next oil change as well since I heard good reviews.
 

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The Lubegard 60902 ATF protectant is what is commonly referred to as Lubegard Red. That is what I use in my transmission.

The Lubegard Platinum would also be OK - I believe it's considered compatible with Honda transmissions and ATF. I'd recommend staying away from the others - their additives packages and intended purposes are too much.
 

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I am a longtime user of the Lubegard 60902 ATF Protectant. Can't remember when it first crossed my own radar, but probably over ten years of positive results in our Odysseys. I only used it to fix problems, and it did.

My background is in chemistry, and I did a bit of research to find out "what" is in Lubegard products. The Lubegard people are actually open about this, and they use long chain wax esters, which essentially duplicate the physical and chemical properties of sperm whale oil. These compounds are excellent for heat exchange and assist ATF thermal stability (there are some interesting engineering papers on how hot ATF can briefly get at the interface between clutch frictions and steels in an automatic transmission during a gear change). Ergo, I now use it as a protective measure in all of our family vehicles.

Really, Lubegard products and Chevron Techron and ATP AT-205 are the only additives I use because of their track record.

I was able to find out the chemical makeup of the primary constituent compounds in Lubegard ATF protectant, and given I had problems with my Odysseys, and a positive experiene from Odyclubber Jerry O, that's why I tried it. It worked, as advertised.

Regarding Techron: the only word I've been able to find about this is that Techron is essentially very similar to the detergent compounds added to Chevron gasoline, but in its unadulterated form in a bottle for concentrated use. I'm comfortable enough with that, and its very positive reception over many automotive forums, to use it as a once-per-year application for fuel system maintenance. As well, it did work for me on my Honda CRX, to fix a tremendous problem.

If you are already using fuel stabilizer with good results for your small power equipment, I see no need to add anything else.

Regarding ATP AT-205, both of my Odysseys developed significant rear main seal leaks. ATP AT-205 has a dedicated following on various mechanics' forums, and was given a thumbs up by a few Odyclubbers, so I had nothing to lose (either ATP AT-205 was going to fix the leaks, or I was going to have to remove the transmission to replace the crankshaft rear main seals). ATP AT-205 fixed these problems. I continue to use it in our Odys as a maintenance item.

That is it. I use nothing else, as modern automotive fluids (ATF, coolant, oil) are almost always sufficient for normal operation of a vehicle that is not enduring any problems.

I know nothing about Marvel products, or their chemical makeup, so I don't use them. Same for Lucas products; I don't use them. Modern motor oils are a wonder of modern petroleum chemistry. If you have noisy lifters on startup, I'd switch to a high quality synthetic like Mobil 1. I use Mobil 1 EP.

In general, I am "anti additives" for normal operation of a vehicle. Lubegard and Techron are my personal exceptions ... I use them for normal operation. I used ATP AT-205 to fix some major problems (oil leaks).

OF
 

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Well you can still pay them to actually update the software. If money is tight (you did buy a salvage title vehicle) then buying a case of fluid and doing the multiple changes yourself is your best option. I did say you will probably be fine. I know I was with my previous 2002 with a known weak transmission. Sold it with the original trans at 246k. Changed the fluid every other oil change on that one and plan on doing the same with the 2015 I just bought. It has such low miles I have not experienced any judder and don't know if the software was ever updated by the previous owner. I did install a Muzzler and it is already much smoother. You should definitely do that!
Save your $$$ and get Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic. Get three gallons from Walmart @$18 per gallon on the Internet and shipping is free.
 
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