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I am a longtime user of the Lubegard 60902 ATF Protectant. Can't remember when it first crossed my own radar, but probably over ten years of positive results in our Odysseys. I only used it to fix problems, and it did.

My background is in chemistry, and I did a bit of research to find out "what" is in Lubegard products. The Lubegard people are actually open about this, and they use long chain wax esters, which essentially duplicate the physical and chemical properties of sperm whale oil. These compounds are excellent for heat exchange and assist ATF thermal stability (there are some interesting engineering papers on how hot ATF can briefly get at the interface between clutch frictions and steels in an automatic transmission during a gear change). Ergo, I now use it as a protective measure in all of our family vehicles.

Really, Lubegard products and Chevron Techron and ATP AT-205 are the only additives I use because of their track record.

I was able to find out the chemical makeup of the primary constituent compounds in Lubegard ATF protectant, and given I had problems with my Odysseys, and a positive experiene from Odyclubber Jerry O, that's why I tried it. It worked, as advertised.

Regarding Techron: the only word I've been able to find about this is that Techron is essentially very similar to the detergent compounds added to Chevron gasoline, but in its unadulterated form in a bottle for concentrated use. I'm comfortable enough with that, and its very positive reception over many automotive forums, to use it as a once-per-year application for fuel system maintenance. As well, it did work for me on my Honda CRX, to fix a tremendous problem.

If you are already using fuel stabilizer with good results for your small power equipment, I see no need to add anything else.

Regarding ATP AT-205, both of my Odysseys developed significant rear main seal leaks. ATP AT-205 has a dedicated following on various mechanics' forums, and was given a thumbs up by a few Odyclubbers, so I had nothing to lose (either ATP AT-205 was going to fix the leaks, or I was going to have to remove the transmission to replace the crankshaft rear main seals). ATP AT-205 fixed these problems. I continue to use it in our Odys as a maintenance item.

That is it. I use nothing else, as modern automotive fluids (ATF, coolant, oil) are almost always sufficient for normal operation of a vehicle that is not enduring any problems.

I know nothing about Marvel products, or their chemical makeup, so I don't use them. Same for Lucas products; I don't use them. Modern motor oils are a wonder of modern petroleum chemistry. If you have noisy lifters on startup, I'd switch to a high quality synthetic like Mobil 1. I use Mobil 1 EP.

In general, I am "anti additives" for normal operation of a vehicle. Lubegard and Techron are my personal exceptions ... I use them for normal operation. I used ATP AT-205 to fix some major problems (oil leaks).

OF
I second this. I have used both, with positive results. I've been using this Chevron additive for probably 20 years. I can hear the difference at the exhaust pipe when I use the Chevron with Techron additive maybe every 10k miles or thereabouts. Chemtrol B-12 is another one that works, per this forum..
 

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You don't need a lift. Shops use them to avoid having to drive the vehicle around - you don't have that restriction. You don't even really need to jack up the front of the van; the transmission drain plug can be reached from the front without jacking. You might want to the first time just to give yourself a chance to orient yourself a bit better.

This post turned lengthy but the instructions and pictures at the beginning are very good and thorough.


And yes, three drain-and-fills are considered to have changed out enough fluid for it to be considered fully refreshed. If memory serves, it's actually about 87% of the fluid but it really is close enough for all intents and purposes.
I drive my vehicle up on ramps made from 2x12 lumber, double thinkness, the top one shorter than the bottom one, with a stop at the end, so I don't drive off of the end. Then there's jackstands for working underneath. No lift reqiuired.
 

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I drive my vehicle up on ramps made from 2.x 12 lumber, double thinkness
Same here, though it is a 2x12 and 4x12 stacked. Plenty of room under the vehicle, even on my lowered cars for wheels-on maintenance. Then again, I like rotating tires during oil changes, so I use them less often than I might otherwise.

-Charlie
 

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Thanks for the tips! I found several Lubegard products including: Lubegard 19610 Instant Shudder Fixx, Lubegard 60902 Automatic Transmission Fluid Protectant, Lubegard 61910 Highly Friction Modified ATF Supplement, and Lubegard 63010 Platinum Universal ATF Protectant. Which do you recommend?

The Techron sounds like some good stuff for carburetors. Wonder if I could use that in my small engines as well to avoid buying new ones every few years. I already use fuel stabilizer and Startron for those.

While we are talking about additives, I had noisy lifters in my 07 Odyssey. Added Marvel Engine Oil to the last oil change and the noise disappeared. Maybe because it's warmer though it has become less noticeable. Was planning to go with Lucas Oil Stabilizer for the next oil change as well since I heard good reviews.
Chevron with Techron goes after deposit built-up inside the cylinders, and likely, on the plugs and injectors as well. There were some photos on the "Bob the Oil Guy" forum, swith and witrout using this product. You can hear the difference in the exhaust note after usage. So it has to be doing something useful.
 

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Techron is also I believe the only combustion cleaner which claims to fix non working fuel gauges/senders
I have seen it fix non working fuel gauges 3 times out of 3 on relatives cars in the last few years.
 

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Another vote here for Techron to clean the fuel system. This is the only cleaner I have used that actually produces a noticable difference. Royal Purple, Lucas, Regane, Marvel Mystery, etc really didn't seem to do anything other than clean my wallet.

I have also used Lubegard red in several cars (including the Ody) and can say it did no harm. However I really don't know whether it helped to protect my ATF. I still do a drain/fill every year.
 

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OP:

I did three DFs with Valvoline Max Life full synthetic on a 2012 Honda Odyssey touring with the six speed automatic. Roughly a gallon each time. MaxLife is cheap and pretty darn good quality. Works fine. Of course the original OEM fluid dw-1 will probably work more perfectly with the transmission. After three drain and fills I added the correct amount of Lubegard Red at 1 oz per quart atf. I believe the lubegard red helps the maxlife work better with the Honda transmission. Then I changed the external 6-speed transmission filter. I read and listened to the recommendations on forums. My sister is happy. The old fluid was pretty bad condition at 105k miles, with no previous service.

In the future, drain and fills with 1 gallon max life are cheap and easier than an oil and filter change. Plus adding 4 oz of Lubegard red as well each time.

I've also used Redline D4 and D6 on BMW's, Hondas and Toyotas. Good stuff, but quite expensive. Max life works pretty good for $20 a gallon.

Take care
 

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Another vote here for Techron to clean the fuel system. This is the only cleaner I have used that actually produces a noticable difference. Royal Purple, Lucas, Regane, Marvel Mystery, etc really didn't seem to do anything other than clean my wallet.

I have also used Lubegard red in several cars (including the Ody) and can say it did no harm. However I really don't know whether it helped to protect my ATF. I still do a drain/fill every year.
or just run Techron containing fuels for a few months straight. I did this six months back. Better mileage and smoother idle.

As for the Lubegard... I tried it but it had little to no appreciable change. When cooler, going into reverse can take a second. Hoped it would address that but only warmer weather fixed the issue. I now just do regular scheduled 3X drain and fills and move on.
 

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Good feedback on Lubeguard.

My only experience with Lubeguard red was with my 2001EX, in an attempt to save the transmission on its path to self destruction.
It was recommended by a rebuilder chain, Mister Transmission.
Never thought of it since then...

Looked up the MSDS for Lubeguard, that stuff is some serious chemistry in a bottle.
1,3,4-Thiadiazole, 2,5-bis(octyldithio)-
Ethylbenzene

Many ATF rebuildiers I have come across recommend Valvoline Maxlife, and Mister Transmission puts a bottle of the lubeguard in with every rebuild.
Guessing the high phosphorus content in the Maxlife, combined with the lubeguard chemistry is what keeps transmissions happy.

Will drop a bottle of the lubeguard platinum in with the next drain fill.

Thanks All
 

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You know the IUPAC chemical naming system makes it sound more complicated than it really is. Here are images of those compounds. Yes B.S. in Chemistry, represent, ;)(y):cool:.


Now as to how these compounds actually do what the company says they do.... I have no idea... I have not tried to read up on research papers (if there are any) on this topic... it might be private unpublished research by the company anyway...

For future reference: Valvoline MaxLife ATF lists itself as a replacement for either Z-1 or DW-1. I didn't know that. I thought only Z-1 was listed.
 

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You know the IUPAC chemical naming system makes it sound more complicated than it really is. Here are images of those compounds. Yes B.S. in Chemistry, represent, ;)(y):cool:.


Now as to how these compounds actually do what the company says they do.... I have no idea... I have not tried to read up on research papers (if there are any) on this topic... it might be private unpublished research by the company anyway...

For future reference: Valvoline MaxLife ATF lists itself as a replacement for either Z-1 or DW-1. I didn't know that. I thought only Z-1 was listed.
Nice!

Speaking of chemistry, we had a previous post discussing this.
Never really did get closure on that one...

This chart is from a poster named Molakule, it came off Bob the oil guys site.

Amsoil and Valvoline Maxlife are high in phosphorus.
Redline and royal purple are high as well, but nobody wants to pay their premium prices unless its going into something performance based.

156353


I would like to understand why it benefits an ATF, with the increased amounts of phosphorus in the oil.
Lots of field data saying how good it is including from rebuilders, but not much science.

Guess that's a job for B.S. in Chemistry.
😅
 

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Well, most of these phosphorous-based long chain molecules are known as "boundary agents." They form an anti-wear layer under severe operating conditions. You might need a chemist for production of this additive, but you need a tribologist like George Morrison on the Tundra forums, to explain what it does. These are EP (extreme pressure) agents that essentially react with a bearing surface when the activation energy threshold is attained (temperature, in this case) to create a very thin layer of sacrificial protection.

The only anti-wear additive I know of that follows this physical model, and is widely sold to the average Joseph Consumer (like us) is Microlon. One of my co-workers uses it in his privately owned aircraft, a Piper Seneca II with a pair of IO-360 engines, as well as the radial on his Yakovlev Yak-18. To my knowledge, it has to meet approval via the FAA's TSO process for even one drop of this stuff to even be allowed into the oil fill of a Continental IO-360.

BTW, nice to see another chem geek reppin' on the forums, nj7777. :cool:

156354
 
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I'm not in the mood for reading so many rabitt trail threads. I tried starting to read through the links and links of links that you gave. I just can't do that much reading right now. But I did do a search of what phosphorus/zinc do in ATF. It came up with a patent link:


A couple of phosphate/phosphite or zinc compounds listed in the patent that supposedly improves the fluid (the claim of the patent. Detergent, Friction modifiers):

Friction modifiers:
2-ethylhexyl acid phosphate
dibutyl hydrogen phosphite
amyl acid phosphate
tricresyl phosphate
phosphorus containing succinimide dispersant

Detergent:
zinc sulfonate
zinc dihydrocarbyl aromatic sulfonate
zinc dinonylnaphthalene sulfonate

I can post molecule diagrams of these. But basically it comes down to chemistry and how these molecule's intermolecular forces (viscosity, friction, breakdown, cleaning/detergent) change the properties of the ATF. Nothing new here. Obviously phosphorus, a nonmetal, is a unique element, and makes certain covalent bonds to attached groups (say, 2-ethylhexyl acid) giving overall unique molecular properties and thus unique intermolecular interactions in the fluid. Zinc as well, but its a metal (which just means it has different general properties). Again the difference is the location on the periodic table. Each column and row specifies sorts of general behavior, also depending on which groups are bonded to the element. Each element is unique. And there are countless molecular groups that can be bonded to an element like phosphorus. Each combination providing somewhat unique molecular properties to the fluid. Some beneficial, many combinations a no-go.
 

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Hey now.... You can love science, math and engineering and not be a geek at the same time. It's possible. 😉

I know with MoS2 Liqui Moly it's supposedly bonds to the metallic surfaces and provides a protection layer against wear. And other ceramic additives like Ceratec. I've used MoS2 and it did increase the mpg, but wore out after a short time. It must not have stayed bonded to the metallic surface very long. Maybe the phosphorus is doing the same thing. It's listed as a friction modifier. How it modifies the friction may be a thin layer on the metal surface. Not sure.
 

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It's listed as a friction modifier. How it modifies the friction may be a thin layer on the metal surface. Not sure.
That's how most EP agents work.

Currently, the most widely used EP agent in ATF is ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate). This compound saw a worldwide production increase when sperm oil stocks essentially went to zero in the mid 1980's.

OF
 

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In the interim... I found an article discussing this very topic about phosphorus and EP agents

 

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Nice article. Still poring over it. I almost laughed when I read this:

"The composition of the surface film, how it forms and how it can be modified, has been the object of a great deal of research. "

Man, that was a topic just starting to gain interest when I finished college in the 80's! Thirty years later, we know what we knew then ... that this compound class is great for its anti-wear purpose, we know conditions favorable to film formation, but still we do not know the "how", the mechanism that forms this sacrificial film and how it gives us such favorable bearing surface contact mechanics.

OF
 

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Nice article. Still poring over it. I almost laughed when I read this:

"The composition of the surface film, how it forms and how it can be modified, has been the object of a great deal of research. "

Man, that was a topic just starting to gain interest when I finished college in the 80's! Thirty years later, we know what we knew then ... that this compound class is great for its anti-wear purpose, we know conditions favorable to film formation, but still we do not know the "how", the mechanism that forms this sacrificial film and how it gives us such favorable bearing surface contact mechanics.

OF
exactly!
Great article and posts folks, thanks for the input...
 

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I'm not in the mood for reading so many rabitt trail threads. I tried starting to read through the links and links of links that you gave. I just can't do that much reading right now. But I did do a search of what phosphorus/zinc do in ATF. It came up with a patent link:


A couple of phosphate/phosphite or zinc compounds listed in the patent that supposedly improves the fluid (the claim of the patent. Detergent, Friction modifiers):

Friction modifiers:
2-ethylhexyl acid phosphate
dibutyl hydrogen phosphite
amyl acid phosphate
tricresyl phosphate
phosphorus containing succinimide dispersant

Detergent:
zinc sulfonate
zinc dihydrocarbyl aromatic sulfonate
zinc dinonylnaphthalene sulfonate

I can post molecule diagrams of these. But basically it comes down to chemistry and how these molecule's intermolecular forces (viscosity, friction, breakdown, cleaning/detergent) change the properties of the ATF. Nothing new here. Obviously phosphorus, a nonmetal, is a unique element, and makes certain covalent bonds to attached groups (say, 2-ethylhexyl acid) giving overall unique molecular properties and thus unique intermolecular interactions in the fluid. Zinc as well, but its a metal (which just means it has different general properties). Again the difference is the location on the periodic table. Each column and row specifies sorts of general behavior, also depending on which groups are bonded to the element. Each element is unique. And there are countless molecular groups that can be bonded to an element like phosphorus. Each combination providing somewhat unique molecular properties to the fluid. Some beneficial, many combinations a no-go.
phosphorus/zinc do in ATF
The Maxlife has no Zinc the DW1 has lots, and vice versa for the phosphorous.

going to stick by my latest theory that a combination / alternating in drain fills between the two oils is the ideal situation.
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Looks like there are a lot of happy users of the Valvoline MaxLife. Never thought about mixing the two by alternating each one between changes. The ML is so much less expensive!
 
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