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Transmission Survey + 9/10 speed detailed info (One thread to rule them all)

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NOT REPORTED IN THE SURVEY /\
[9 speed failures: 2]
[10 Speed failures: 9]


Not trying to beat this into the ground...just trying to be informative to the community and those that might be experiencing issues. Feel like this should've been created back in 2017/18. On top of that there are so many threads on specifically the 9 speed it can be confusing.

Things to note: 9 Speed is designed by ZF Friedrichshafen Germany, made in South Carolina USA. The 10 speed is designed by Honda in Japan, made in Georgia USA.

Goal of both AT is to save fuel. On average they are fairly the same in MPG. However, they behave differently due to the design. Traditionally AT uses friction clutches resulting in some slip which means transitioning form one gear to another is smooth. 10 Speed is designed as such. 9 Speed on the other hand uses dog clutches between 4-5 and 7-8th gear shifts where no slip can take place, these gears have to in perfect sync for them to mesh together. This results in delayed shifting, a click noise.

ZF 9HP (9 speed)
This AT is notorious and has a pretty bad track record from when it was originally introduced in early Chrysler models. Lots of TLX (2015) Pilot (2016-17) Including MDX had serious issues. Many got their AT replaced. Acura even extended warranties to 10 years on the newly installed AT. ZF blamed most of these issues to how the transmission was programed causing drama. lot of failures with 9HP in the early Pilots and MDX are due to coolant and ATF mixing. This has been addressed at h/w level and with extended warranties. 2019+ has other internal h/w improvements.

This is AT is used still in MDX, Pilot, Passport, Ridgeline in the honda/acura family as of now. Again lots of complaints from the 2016-2017.

On the recent models... overall 99%+ complaints are about shift quality, particularly from 4-5 & 7-8 up/downshifts. This is due to the dog clutch mentioned above. It’s different and takes a little getting used to. ZF for some reason made this into a learning AT. This transmission "learns" how you drive. So Imagine if you have 2+ drivers in the house. ZF even blamed this unpredictable behavior on the customers Link.

TOWING:
ZF 9HP specs are great on paper. Technically it's a bit over built for the Honda J series v6.
Total weight: (wet) 90 Kg / 198.42 lbs
Max torque rating: 500 Nm / 368.7811 ft lbs
(Odyssey: 262 ft lbs)

Even with the great specs Odysseys with the ZF can only tow 3000 lbs.
This may have to do with cooling the unit, Honda never bothered to make this official.
Part:
ATF Cooler Kit (9-Speed AWD)
Instructions for pilot:
https://www.collegehillshonda.com/instructions/pilot/2021/5ezcooler.pdf

It should work on the Ody but the mount points and path for running lines will not exist on the van as is on the pilot or other Honda/Acura's

MAINTENANCE:
The fluid replacement process on the ZF is a chore and unnecessarily convoluted. Expect to pay $350 or more at the dealer. Fluid prices have gone down form $50 to ~$25
for Honda ATF-TYPE 3.1. FYI, it does have a fill bolt on the top and is quite accessible.

To put this thing on neutral without battery you need a key tool (07AAA-TZ3A100) $200. This is also very accessible from the top. (Honda used to just have simple a shift lock back in the day)

Chrysler Pacifica so far is the only vehicle that have tamed this transmission working directly with ZF. Unfortunately Honda is not there yet. Small effort was made with a Service Bulletin19-124.

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Honda 10AT (10 speed)
This is the future. Most folks report this AT is very smooth and trouble free but there are issues and several failures reported here. This is expected with a brand new product. The 10AT fairly new still so it may or may not have issues. What’s for certain is that even this 10AT will continue to be refined as it gets more application over time. (Personal history, I've never had any issues with most Honda transmissions from the early 90's to now. My parents 03 Ody had 1 transmision replaced at 160k miles. See my list of vehicles)

TOWING:
With the 10AT the Ody can tow full 3500 lbs. No cooler needed. It would be interesting to see if coolers appear on the market when MDX + Pilot switch over this this AT.

Total weight: 220lbs
Max torque rating: 280ft-lbs-354ft-lbs (range form other acuras)
(Odyssey: 262 ft lbs)

MAINTENANCE:
The fluid replacement process is much cheaper/simpler on this AT. Honda ATF-TYPE 2.
The Fill bolt is in the front and faces the radiator and uses a typical 17mm, 6-point head. It is accessible from the engine bay, preferably from the bottom. The drain is the typical 3/8" style. Here is a DIY from smufguy >> DIY - 10spd ATF change

To put this thing on neutral without battery you need to remove the front cover, intake tube, battery and then you need to use an open-end wrench. (Honda used to just have simple a shift lock back in the day)

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No one knows the longevity of the 5th Gen Odyssey. Everything is new and we don’t have any long term usage/mileage to report back. As mentioned 9 speed's primary complaint is shift quality, specifically dog clutches. Not many all out failures reported here. The 10 speed is preferred, shifts much smoother but has several failures reported here. The numbers are too low to mean anything atm. YMMV.

Admins, would love to have this pinned. If this is useless please get rid of it.

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Honda 10AT (10 speed) fails: 9 reported
(2 failures ^here^)

Honda 10AT (10 speed) issues


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ZF 9HP (9 speed) fails: 2 reported

ZF 9HP (9 speed) issues
I'm sure there are more...

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**These are sealed units. AT gets replaced as an entire unit, Dealers do not take these apart. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

Select the option that matches your AT/issues.

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Fluid drain-n-fill or software update

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Solenoid replaced**

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Computer replaced

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Torque converter replaced**

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Loss of power on econ

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Loss of power on econ off

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Rough Shifting

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - Transmission replaced

  • Honda 10AT (10 speed) - No Issues

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Fluid drain-n-fill or software update

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Solenoid replaced**

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Computer replaced

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Torque converter replaced**

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Loss of power on econ

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Loss of power on econ off

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Dog clutch noise (4-5, 7-8 gears) or Other noise

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Rough Shifting

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Transmission replaced

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - No Issues - Normal dog clutch click (4-5, 7-8 gears)

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - No Issues

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Service Bulletin 19-124 fixed everything

  • ZF 9HP (9 speed) - Service Bulletin 19-124 did not fix anything

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Discussion Starter · #2 · (Edited)
Anyone know more on the 10 speed in terms of specs? weight, torque? I've updated this info above. 👆

please verify.
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
This could help those that are having shifting issues on ZF 9HP. You can reset the transmission. Full disclosure, I did not try this because my van has learned how my wife and I drive. So far things are working great. But in case you need to do a relearn try the following. This has served the Acura folks very well. I'd give it a try if you are having shifting issues. I'd do this if the van was purchased second hand.

Here are the instructions for doing a transmission reset.

1) Push the START/STOP button: press it twice without pressing the brake pedal. DO NOT START THE ENGINE. Turn off the lights and radio.

2) Your dash lights should be on at this point. Within 5 seconds of turning on the ignition, press the gas pedal down all the way, and keep it pressed for 15 to 30 seconds.

3) After the transmission has reset, the CEL will go off.

4) Turn the car off and restart it.

There will be no confirmation or beep but at this point, the transmission has been reset. If you are not sure, repeat the procedure one more time.


Now drive 500+ miles for the full learning to take place.


This may work on the 10 speed? But I don't think the 10 speed is a learning AT. Please verify. + would love more folks to vote.
 
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Thanks for putting it together. Hope it gets credible information included and updated periodically.

Here are few corrections

10AT Facts
- The Fill bolt is in the front and faces the radiator and uses a typical 17mm, 6-point head. It is accessible from the engine bay, preferably from the bottom. The drain is the typical 3/8" style. Here is my DIY if needed >> DIY - 10spd ATF change

- the max torque figure is not fully known to the public (though an article, Just-Auto, listed such a number back in 2015). Depending on the configuration, it varies, though the transmission is the same. In the '19 RDX the rated torque is 280ft-lbs. The upcoming, yet unreleased, TLX Type-S is promoted at 354ft-lbs.

- Weight: about 220lbs dry (with no fluids) - source Gears Magazine: link below.


Resources
- Wards Auto is considered as one of the reputable outlets in automotive world. Their 10spd article is here >> Honda Details Front-Engine, Front-Wheel-Drive 10AT on Odyssey

- Complete tear down and review of components >> Gears Magazine | Planetary Gearsets in a Honda?

- Arturo Valdes' commentary of the 10AT >>

Recommendations
- Your intro about the Honda ATs is not factual. Though there were issues in the early to late 90s, the Honda transmissions have proven to be one of the stout units in the 5/6sp configurations. Unless you are able to provide a credible source graphing the AT stats that you provided, I would leave it out as it is just an opinion.

- Transmission limits are dictated by the clutch plates, fluid used and the torque converter. These fail, before the gears and shafts give way.

- If this is going to be a one stop shop for the 9spd and 10AT, then sources are very crucial so the discussions do not spiral downward. I also recommend you seek a moderator to keep the thread on point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
smufguy, thanks for the feedback I’ll go and fix these once I’m at a computer. I’m on a mobile phone and usually get some time to do this stuff when all the kids are napping/late at night.

I wish I had access to this information when buying my van. There is so much noise otherwise. On top of that folks only post if there are issues in these places.
 

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smufguy, thanks for the feedback I’ll go and fix these once I’m at a computer. I’m on a mobile phone and usually get some time to do this stuff when all the kids are napping/late at night.

I wish I had access to this information when buying my van. There is so much noise otherwise. On top of that folks only post if there are issues in these places.
You got it, it is the least I could do. I joined Odyclub about 7 months prior to buying my G5 and it had valuable information that was instrumental in my purchase. I am almost at 55K mi on my G5 in the last 2.5 years (almost) and it has been problem free. Even the recalls and TSBs had no symptoms; I really enjoy the van, but I still love my G1 Ridgeline :D

This community, like many others, have been inadequately moderated and thus you hear a lot of 'noise'. It is unfortunate, but expected. Regardless, it is a great resource that needs to be treaded carefully and information retrieved with certain level of skepticism.
As with every other online community, people either talk about modifications or complain about issues. You wont see a slew of threads and discussions about how their vehicles are problem free.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Just made some tweaks according to smufguy's input. Took too long, I didn't get a chance to get back on here in a long while. Thanks to everyone that have voted. (Please remember I am not an expert, I visit this place once in awhile to see what's happening in the world of minivans of all things, as interesting as it sounds.)
 

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2018 with the 9 speed. At 50K miles the van started making an odd noise, wasn't sure what it was but sounded more like a wind noise very faint. At 62K the van started to have a hard shift when decel, at 64K the noise increased. At 66K we are told we need a new transmission at the tune of $6K as it is just outside of warranty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
At 66K we are told we need a new transmission at the tune of $6K as it is just outside of warranty.
Ahhh.. that’s terrible. Please record this on the survey.

Also, would love hear back updates on the replacement unit.

This is the only way we can record these events for now. On the long run if this survey is still being updated it may help us out. I know there is a class action lawsuit on the ody 9 speed. Not on failures but the shift quality.

shoot we see significant numbers we might be able to class action that too..

All best.
 

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Ahhh.. that’s terrible. Please record this on the survey.

Also, would love hear back updates on the replacement unit.

This is the only way we can record these events for now. On the long run if this survey is still being updated it may help us out. I know there is a class action lawsuit on the ody 9 speed. Not on failures but the shift quality.

shoot we see significant numbers we might be able to class action that too..

All best.
Ahhh.. that’s terrible. Please record this on the survey.

Also, would love hear back updates on the replacement unit.

This is the only way we can record these events for now. On the long run if this survey is still being updated it may help us out. I know there is a class action lawsuit on the ody 9 speed. Not on failures but the shift quality.

shoot we see significant numbers we might be able to class action that too..

All best.
Did the survey and reached out to the lawyers on the class action they are reviewing our information too. 65K miles is too early for issues - debating whether to get rid of completely or replace. We loved our 2005 touring, our 2009 EXL was ok but the 2018 EXL has been awful. Sliding door issues, RES sound is horrible (can't hear in back seat at all without headphones) Display issues... on and on... the quality is just not there like it used to be
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
65K miles is too early for issues - debating whether to get rid of completely or replace.
Too early for sure. Totally unacceptable.

Did you replace the transmission fluid
I’d like to know too. Personally I’m planning every 30k. So far so good but I don’t have many miles on the van.

ZF makes an awesome 8 speed. The 9 speed is kind of a shame. I wish Honda would at least do something, Chrysler did recalls and replacements too.
 

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I'm always a little skeptical when a newly created forum memeber immediately starts making claims of a premature (and expensive) failure.

There was someone else on this forum who would occasionally claim that his transmission failed at 75k miles. I have repeatedly asked for details by responding to his posts and sending a PM. He hasn't responded to either.

It is entirely possible that the previous poster's transmission failed, or he could be a forum bot who shows up for a few posts and disappears.
 

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We bought our 18 EXL with 24k about a month ago and around 25mph it’ll suddenly lose power and slam into gear. You can hear an audible click when this shifting happens. Also, it wants to lurch forward if you barely step on the pedal. I tried resetting the transmission and drove it for 500 miles and it’s still doing it. I have an appt for Wednesday. I’m running all VLEDs but I was having the issue prior to the LED swap. Thankfully we paid the extra 1400 to get Honda Care for 8 years and 100k miles. I’ll post updates after our Wednesday visit.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
We bought our 18 EXL with 24k about a month ago and around 25mph it’ll suddenly lose power and slam into gear. You can hear an audible click when this shifting happens. Also, it wants to lurch forward if you barely step on the pedal. I tried resetting the transmission and drove it for 500 miles and it’s still doing it. I have an appt for Wednesday. I’m running all VLEDs but I was having the issue prior to the LED swap. Thankfully we paid the extra 1400 to get Honda Care for 8 years and 100k miles. I’ll post updates after our Wednesday visit.
This is awful. I noticed this 9 speed to be noisy/jerky when particularly cold. After driving a bit it smooths out. Unfortunately all this is coming from the design of the AT. Did you ever get the Software update: http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A19-124.PDF
Ask for this at your visit if you didn’t get this yet.
 

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This is awful. I noticed this 9 speed to be noisy/jerky when particularly cold. After driving a bit it smooths out. Unfortunately all this is coming from the design of the AT. Did you ever get the Software update: http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A19-124.PDF
Ask for this at your visit if you didn’t get this yet.
I’m not sure if it has been done, but saved the file and will bring it tomorrow. My harsh shifting happens if the engine is cold or warm and I live in San Diego, so the weather is steady. When you got this update, did it help at all?

Thanks for sharing that TSB!
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
When you got this update, did it help at all?
It’s a mix bag of experience for everyone. What I noticed is that shifting in steady acceleration has improved a lot as in no jerking or clicks. The key is you put your foot down and keep it steady. Any fluctuations at the accelerator the AT won’t know what to do. Down shifts are not as smooth as up shift. I do sometime hear the dog clutch 4-5th and 7-8th (more on 4-5th aka low speed rolling in the neighborhood) The real culprit is at the mechanical design of this thing.

Most people complain about slow speed driving in the 30-45mph range.

This might be placebo or I’m just crazy. During your 500mile learning period drive the van with Econ off and drive it how you expect to accelerate and such. After that learning takes place and complete go back to driving gentle and with Econ. Feel like this made a difference in my van. 🤷‍♂️ Goal is longevity. As long as it doesn’t completely poop out I am ok with it. I’ve done 2 cross country trips and had no issues got great mpg at 29.3.
All best. And keep us posted.
 
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