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Thank you Cro for sharing on this thread.i truly hope you don’t regret it. The strange thing is how no one sees lower fuel economy with it muzzled when that is supposedly the only reason Honda forces it on us.
Most people report 1-2 MPG reduction on the highway. I haven't personally gotten a chance to test it out fully on my van (too many variables in the small number of test runs so far) but that number seems to be in the ballpark for our van.

The EPA numbers on the 3rd gen vans with VCM were are 1 MPG higher city and 2 MPG higher highway and combined (16/18/23 vs 17/20/25) than the non-VCM vans for reference.

-Charlie
 
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Most people report 1-2 MPG reduction on the highway. I haven't personally gotten a chance to test it out fully on my van (too many variables in the small number of test runs so far) but that number seems to be in the ballpark for our van.

The EPA numbers on the 3rd gen vans with VCM were are 1 MPG higher city and 2 MPG higher highway and combined (16/18/23 vs 17/20/25) than the non-VCM vans for reference.

-Charlie
That's about right. It doesn't take much of an increase in speed without VCM to kill fuel economy.

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Discussion Starter #43
Speaking off, is there a dedicated VCM muzzler thread? Looking at S-VCM ($95USD, free shipping?) vs VCMTunerII-Advanced ($120+$5ship), both being "automatic" without having to tune the resistor.
 

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Speaking off, is there a dedicated VCM muzzler thread? Looking at S-VCM ($95USD, free shipping?) vs VCMTunerII-Advanced ($120+$5ship), both being "automatic" without having to tune the resistor.
No, there's no unified muzzler thread. As you've had ample opportunity to see, muzzling is too big a can of worms around here to stay confined to a single thread. :cautious:

Both of the automated choices you're looking at are great. You won't go wrong with either of them. The VCMTuner II is a little bit nicer when it comes to maintenance and repair procedures that require a true engine coolant temperature reading. But seeing as how you're in Canada, I probably don't have to tell you that a $30 USD price difference is more than a little noticeable.
 

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We've seen the opposite, we get better gas mileage on the highway with the Muzzle installed. I wrote up a thread on this experience a while back and have since duplicated the experiment twice with the same results (same "loop", slightly different conditions but close enough).

Even if it did cost 1-2 mpg not beating up our very expensive vehicle we intend to keep forever would be worth it, but that's not been the case; better mileage, way better response and no herky-jerky-shaky ride with the S-VCM... And we're getting way better gas mileage than we ever did with our '02 EXL! ;)
 

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Added some questions/comments in bold.

Advice from someone with a 2011 Touring (has same 6 speed transmission) with 183000 miles:

1. Drain and refill the transmission fluid (3.5 liters) with every oil change. Use the Honda fluid. This will help keep the 6 speed transmission in good shape and avoid the torque converter issues seen with older years. Reference Honda TSB 16-046.
I have the same van myself. I actually opted to replace the sensor first when I had the transmission issues that MrZRanger(?) suggests in his post - and it's been a year and never a hiccup on shifting anymore. Keep in mind I did a fluid replace regardless and will do them more frequently anyways.

2. Consider a VCM disable device like ”VCMTUNER II“. This will help avoid the cylinder ring wear issues discussed ad nauseum on these forums. $120 is cheap insurance to prevent issues, especially with such a young vehicle. The gasoline saved by VCM is tiny compared to engine damage costs.

3. Mobil 1 0W20 engine oil and Honda oil filter.
I use Mobil 1 oil and filter, but not the honda filter. Any reason i should use the Honda one over the Mobil 1?

4. When you get to the timing belt at 100k, insist on only Honda parts, replace the water pump and timing belt tensioner too at that time.

5. NGK spark plugs to exact match Honda originals.

6. One more - replace the battery every 3 years. Set a calender reminder and just replace it every 36 months, you get to do it when it convenient for you, not when your wife is stranded somewhere and its your fault...
Buy a Costco one, it will last a few extra years ;). I also replaced the alternator with a re-man. Don't know the specifics but the guy who built it, gave me a lifetime warranty because he basically made it a bigger alternator (more diodes or something?) and said it should never go now.
 

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The Mobile 1 extended life filters are quality as far as I know. If you aren't using a full synthetic with extended protection, there's no need to use one unless it's cheaper than the Honda filter. Just make sure you're getting either from a reputable source. JMHO

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The Mobile 1 extended life filters are quality as far as I know. If you aren't using a full synthetic with extended protection, there's no need to use one unless it's cheaper than the Honda filter. Just make sure you're getting either from a reputable source. JMHO

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Ok perfect. I always thought so, so that's good. Luckily my oil change 'cycle' matches up with the sales every 2-3 months or so, so it works out for me to get both Mobil 1 0W-20 as well as the Mobil 1 H-110 filter. So I will keep using that combo then.

Thanks!
 

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Sigh... I'm probably going to regret this...

@silverghost06 - we're in agreement about a few things. I wouldn't install a muzzler on a van with over 250,000 miles either. Personally, I wouldn't install a licence plate on a van with over 250,000 miles on it, but that's neither here nor there. "To each his own", right? In your specific case, you're absolutely right - why bother with a muzzler at this point? You've made it just fine thus far; let 'er ride. Your Ody has served you well and hopefully continues to for as long as you need it. Muzzling it at this point would be a total waste of time and money.

For both @silverghost06 and @jbudd - what sort of facts or evidence would satisfy you? Let's lay out some cold hard facts:

1. The problems are real. Here is copy of the settlement notice from the US District Court for Northern California:


I hope I don't need to explain that these things don't just get sprayed around willy-nilly by federal judges. I'll save you a tiny bit of reading (as in the first three lines of the very first page) - it specifically refers to Honda V6 engines equipped with VCM2 - nearly 1.6 million of them. No vehicle older than the 2008 model year is affected by this system or covered by the lawsuit and subsequent settlement. If only 1% of the vehicles covered actually had the ring replacement done at a price tag of about $2500 each, that would cost Honda around 40 million dollars. This is seriously big money that no one puts up unless they have to. And this scenario still allows for 99% of the vehicles to be "just fine". This isn't something made up by internet crackpots that have it in for Honda for one reason or another, conspiracy theorists or various other Chicken Little types. Honda's checkbook and a US Federal Court say this is no fairy tale.

So @silverghost06 - your own experience with VCM in your 2006 Odyssey is completely irrelevant to the conversations in this thread. I'm glad your van's been so good to you, but this really is not even a little bit about you. Sit down.

Now for everyone else, let's continue...

2. The proof that VCM disable devices work and are safe over the long term is already inside every single VCM2 engine, muzzled or not. The unique characteristic of VCM2 is that it allows the engine to run on 3, 4 or 6 cylinders. VCM1 and the most modern VCM3 are not like that - they are 3 or 6-cylinder mode only.

3-cyl mode4-cyl mode6-cyl mode
Cylinder 1NYY
Cylinder 2NYY
Cylinder 3NNY
Cylinder 4YNY
Cylinder 5YYY
Cylinder 6YYY

The cylinders most prone to fouling and piston ring problems happen to be the same ones that are being turned on and off by VCM; that is, cylinders 1, 2, 3, and 4. Only cylinders 5 and 6 fire in all three operating modes of VCM2, and it is consistently cylinders 5 and 6 that do not have fouling and misfire problems. It is so common for cylinders 1-4 to have these problems that they are the only ones which get repaired under the terms of the extended warranty Honda offered following that class-action lawsuit. Honda does not pay for new rings in cylinders 5 and 6 under the terms of the extended warranty. Cylinders 5 & 6 never get shut off and they never have problems. Coincidence? You decide for yourself, but Honda themselves obviously don't think it is. I'll go with them.

Honda eventually blamed the oil blow-by on low friction piston rings that were used up until 2013. They did not bother to explain why leaving those "faulty" piston rings in cylinders 5 and 6 was perfectly fine while the other 4 cylinders got "improved" piston rings that entered regular production for the 2014 model year. I think it's because they weren't the actual problem (or at least they weren't at the core of the problem), but I'll concede that's just me.

The wear on the active engine mounts is fairly straightforward - it's very difficult to get a V6 engine to run equally smoothly using 3 of 6, 4 of 6, or 6 of 6 cylinders, so Honda uses electrically controlled active engine mounts to help cancel the vibrations that naturally occur in 3 and 4 cylinder modes. Those things work very hard whenever VCM is active and I think they do an admirable job in most cases. But they simply wear out after a while; they are not a lifetime part. They are also a very expensive part that seem to nicely outlive the warranty so that owners are stuck with paying the hefty repair bill out-of-pocket. All other V6 engines (from ANY manufacturer) that don't have cylinder deactivation naturally run very smoothly all on their own without any fancy engine mounts. So if you don't disable cylinders you don't need active engine mounts, which is great for 2008 - 2010 Odyssey owners who have bolt-up replacements available because those vans could be had with either non-VCM or VCM engines from the factory. For us gen 4 owners who don't have the option to choose solid mounts, we at least don't worry about replacing something that will never wear out because the thing that wears it out never happens.

So there is no mechanical harm done by disabling VCM - as a matter of fact, you simplify the engine's job by disabling VCM. So now let's move on to the scarier part...

3. You're not screwing with the engine computer by disabling VCM. Relatively little of the critical engine functions depend on the temperature of the coolant. Probably the most important function controlled by the coolant temperature is the radiator fans and for that there is a secondary engine coolant temperature sensor - ECT2. The fans' operation is also influenced by other factors, like whether or not the AC compressor is running. The remainder of the cooling system like the radiator and thermostat are completely mechanical and receive no input from the PCM - they do their thing the same whether VCM is active or not.

The normal warmed up temperature range for a fourth generation Honda Odyssey engine is around 170°F - that is the temperature at which the thermostat opens on my 2015. VCM is allowed to function by the PCM at a temperature of 167°F. An S-VCM controller or VCMTuner II hold the ECT1 sensor output at 161-163°F. The engine warms up fully. A couple of degrees up or down only matters to the VCM system.

The air/fuel ratio is determined by the O2 sensors as soon as the PCM goes into closed loop, a few moments after engine start. The amount of time the engine runs rich to get itself started is basically unchanged because the PCM does not rely on coolant temperature alone to determine whether it's warmed up enough to go into closed loop. I know this is true because I have a Scangauge II connected to the OBD II port in my van and I can monitor parameters like open/closed loop and short-term and long-term fuel trims. The engine does not run rich with a muzzler installed. I can monitor the engine's health by watching parameters like engine timing, exhaust gas temperatures, catalyst temperatures, O2 sensor outputs and engine loading. None of these give any kind of abnormal or out-of-spec reading on my muzzled engine, and that's only logical because...

4. Running in full-on 6-cylinder mode is not unnatural to the engine. It is legitimately one of the three modes possible under VCM2. Disabling VCM does not force the engine to do anything it wasn't designed for. We're not hot rodding the thing. It's totally OK for a V6 engine to use all 6 cylinders. Really.


I'm sick and tired of having to explain stuff like this umpteen times around here, so now I'd like to turn the tables here a little bit. I've laid out a few things here in support of my general contention that disabling VCM is safe and appropriate if you choose to do it and sometimes even advisable. Can the skeptics back up their position? Let me hear about the reasons why you believe VCM should not be disabled. Is there anything there other than blind faith? "That's how Honda made it so that's how it should be." Show me the facts that prove I'm out of line (if you can).
Well you should be more honest in your position here also. It is clear that Crometh and maybe youe are selling or profiting from VCM muzzler sales . I still do not buy the argument of installing the VCM it is obvious a few on this site are the sellers of this product. But as you state Honda had to settle on this problem , then what guarentee's or legal remedies will the VCM peddlers make to people who use this Muzzler and their vehicles have problems . Who manufactures the VCM? How does anyone know the Quality control, the field testing reports , are there any ? You can show Honda documants and other legal paper work . But it appears Honda settled the problem, how many VCM motors were involved percentage wise ? I still would not waste my money on one of these garage made items . I personally believe the problem is way over hyped to have forum members like Crometh profit off the sales of these items.
 

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Our 2006 EX-L had over 300,000 miles without a VCM disabler. We did have about a $600 bill to replace motor mounts at around 180k miles but that was it. Transmission held up just fine. But our highway driving was usually around 80 mph and the ECO rarely kicked in at that speed.
That said, I will be getting a disabler on our 2016 EX-L, as I’ve seen ECO at 77 mph on this van.
Greg I would not waste your money on one of these . Who makes them ? Are they backed by a warranty ? Where are the field testing results ? 180K on any item is great , 300K is proof that the VCM muzzler is not really needed. But if it gives one piece of mind go for it ! I just think Crometh and a few others are profiting off of pushing these muzzlers. I wish they would publish their Research and Development studies and other analytical data and comparative testing results of long term VCM versus VCM muzzled vehicles , and the manufacturing techniques employed in this product to back up their product to prospective purchasers of this VCM muzzler.
 

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Well you should be more honest in your position here also. It is clear that Crometh and maybe youe are selling or profiting from VCM muzzler sales . I still do not buy the argument of installing the VCM it is obvious a few on this site are the sellers of this product. But as you state Honda had to settle on this problem , then what guarentee's or legal remedies will the VCM peddlers make to people who use this Muzzler and their vehicles have problems . Who manufactures the VCM? How does anyone know the Quality control, the field testing reports , are there any ? You can show Honda documants and other legal paper work . But it appears Honda settled the problem, how many VCM motors were involved percentage wise ? I still would not waste my money on one of these garage made items . I personally believe the problem is way over hyped to have forum members like Crometh profit off the sales of these items.
Once again, with feeling? Your 2006 Odyssey had a different VCM system. That one tore up active engine mounts.
That is a well documented issue in the 2005-2010 forum. (THAT YOU ARE NOT IN) I'm not even sure what you are on about, considering the horrible sentence structure, wild accusations, calling Muzzler products VCM, calling people names, failure to pay attention to anything that has been explained, and general failure to just drop it, AS HAS BEEN REQUESTED!

There are several manufacturers of Muzzler products. Only Verbatim & Maxud make them and are members here. Both sold early versions for very little more that the cost of parts. (the newest, auto adjusting ones, like S-VCM & VCMTuner II are over $100.) But simple cheap ones are still available. In fact, there is a thread in the forum devoted to your model years on making one yourself. But then again, you do not have the VCM version that burns oil and fouls spark plugs...

Did you have an argumentative mother? Cuz there may be a name for your condition.
 

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Well you should be more honest in your position here also. It is clear that Crometh and maybe youe are selling or profiting from VCM muzzler sales . I still do not buy the argument of installing the VCM it is obvious a few on this site are the sellers of this product. But as you state Honda had to settle on this problem , then what guarentee's or legal remedies will the VCM peddlers make to people who use this Muzzler and their vehicles have problems . Who manufactures the VCM? How does anyone know the Quality control, the field testing reports , are there any ? You can show Honda documants and other legal paper work . But it appears Honda settled the problem, how many VCM motors were involved percentage wise ? I still would not waste my money on one of these garage made items . I personally believe the problem is way over hyped to have forum members like Crometh profit off the sales of these items.
I was wondering how long it would take you to show up in this thread again. We missed you.

You're obviously motivated to discredit my position, and I can respect that. I was hoping (in vain, as it turns out) that you'd come back at me with some facts of your own, that you'd find some holes in my logic to exploit, that you'd have some new angle to consider, that maybe I'd get a chance to learn something new, that even in disagreement maybe we could combine to help everyone who reads this understand their vans better. It could have been fun.

But all you've got for me is juvenile name-calling, weak attempts at drive-by character smears, and an apparent preference to trust massive faceless corporations who won't divulge their research to you (despite considerable evidence suggesting they should not be blindly trusted) over tiny faceless guys or girls working hard in their basements who won't divulge their research to you. You disappoint me. What a waste of an opportunity.

How about this: If you want to actually contribute something worthwhile here (I'm not convinced that you really do), why don't you go find out exactly how many repairs Honda has done? Tell us what is the true probability of running into problems. Prove to me and those of us who advocate for disabling VCM that we are wasting people's time and money using documented data from verified sources. Since I had annotations to my post, I think it's only fair that you should do the same.

Right now, the only thing I know for sure about that is that the probability of having VCM-related trouble on an unmuzzled vehicle is not zero, which does leave a lot of room for wondering. I don't like uncertainty. Disabling VCM reduces it to zero and removes all the doubt. My muzzled van absolutely will not have problems with the piston rings and engine mounts. Would it have had problems without a muzzler? Maybe. Maybe not. No one knows for sure - THAT'S THE PROBLEM!

Since you clearly can't find anything wrong with the technical explanation of the problem or our solution to it (I'm sure you'd have said so by now), show me some REAL facts about the need. And no, your own experience with a completely unrelated vehicle doesn't count. I want the number of repairs done under TSB 13-080 and TSB 13-081, sourced directly from Honda if possible. Then everyone can decide for themselves how serious the risks are and how they'd like to handle it.
 
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Its funny, because silverghost06 is like a reverse conspiracy theorist. He blindly trusts a large corporation that has already admitted there is a problem, and doesn't trust all the small guys that have shown significant data on the VCM system, its operation and data to back up what they are doing (not in this thread, there are already plenty of those out there here and on the Pilot forum). Heck, there are plenty of threads comparing spark plugs, threads showing what is involved in the repair, threads of Honda performing goodwill repairs for vans outside the lawsuit settlement group, etc. It is already out there if you look.

-Charlie
 

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And, the Muzzling device is very simple: It adjusts the output reading of one of the coolant sensors. Folks with OBD (On Board Diagnostic) readers report no effects on any other operations.
Are there folks with vans that don't muzzle and report no problems? Yes, but what I learned here is that VCM doesn't work when you are going over 80MPH. For vans that only get used for long trips, that would be most of the time.

If this system saved a lot of fuel I might have a different point of view, but 1-2 MPG? I can achieve that by bumping up my tire pressures.
 

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Its funny, because silverghost06 is like a reverse conspiracy theorist. He blindly trusts a large corporation that has already admitted there is a problem, and doesn't trust all the small guys that have shown significant data on the VCM system, its operation and data to back up what they are doing (not in this thread, there are already plenty of those out there here and on the Pilot forum). Heck, there are plenty of threads comparing spark plugs, threads showing what is involved in the repair, threads of Honda performing goodwill repairs for vans outside the lawsuit settlement group, etc. It is already out there if you look.

-Charlie
LOL! Exactly! I would find this even sillier than I already do if I weren't in the middle of it.

In the immortal words of Yogi Berra, "You can see a lot just by observing."
 
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I must say I have enjoyed reading this thread! I suppose it is healthy for a person to be skeptical of any "solution" to a problem, especially if that person is not familiar with any evidence in support of said solution (or of the problem that has been solved). However, I find it annoying when these people posit themselves as authorities on the matter, despite not even having experience with the issue in question. In this case, I think Silverghost is just a contrarian.

As for me, I am grateful for all of the excellent advice available here - from users such as CroMath and many others who have first-hand experience with the 4th gen Ody. As a result, I am happily using a VCMTuner (the original config). When I bought it I hoped (expected) that it would delay/prevent any issues from the VCM and I am happy to say that, at the very least, it does no harm. All is good at 105k+ miles. I also like that all cylinders are firing all the time, resulting in much smoother performance.
 

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Discussion Starter #57
OT back to myself lol... so far didn't notice any vibration and shudder so hopefully my car is still in good order.
Ordered and got S-VCM, gona try install this weekend.

Did have a natural VCM muzzler on today using the car myself for the short drive to work.
...... aka, -15 degree C (5 F)
ECO light didn't even come on once for the 10-ish min drive lol.
 

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OT back to myself lol... so far didn't notice any vibration and shudder so hopefully my car is still in good order.
Ordered and got S-VCM, gona try install this weekend.

Did have a natural VCM muzzler on today using the car myself for the short drive to work.
...... aka, -15 degree C (5 F)
ECO light didn't even come on once for the 10-ish min drive lol.
 

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I love it, he doesn't even have the same model vehicle (with the issues we're discussing) and he's using that as his defense.Go read the today posted P0303 error thread here , these pop up here all the time on this 2011-2017 generation forum FOR A REASON!

I'm happy to have my '16 EXL run on all six cylinders all the time, that's the only thing happening with a Muzzler. Just like every other car I've ever owned, never had excessive oil consumption, zapped plug and likely piston ring failure at 52k like the P0303 code poster...

To each their own but to try to argue with no relevant counter point is a waste of everyone's time. What's next fake Moon Landing and Flat Earther conspiracies? ;)
 
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