that's a valve "adjustment", not a valve job. Big difference! In terms of inspecting it to determine if it's needed....well....they would have done 90% of the work to get to the point where they could inspect (measure) the valve lash anyway. My opinion - if it's been 105k and hasn't been done, I'd probably do it.
Valve job with 105k service or inspect first?
I just bought a 2000 Odyssey and it's due for the 105k service. I called a few mechanics, including dealers, and some are saying valve adjustments are optional -- they would inspect it and determine if it's needed. Others are saying definitely do the valve job to be safe, because, even if the valves don't *sound* bad, the fit might be poor and you could have a big, expensive melt down in the future.
What do you think? Should I go ahead and do the valve job, or do it only if the mechanic sees a problem?
Thanks.
What do you think? Should I go ahead and do the valve job, or do it only if the mechanic sees a problem?
Thanks.
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
Wade -- thanks.wadechamberlain said:that's a valve "adjustment", not a valve job. Big difference! In terms of inspecting it to determine if it's needed....well....they would have done 90% of the work to get to the point where they could inspect (measure) the valve lash anyway. My opinion - if it's been 105k and hasn't been done, I'd probably do it.
After I posted my question, I saw several old threads where the consensus seems to be split: 1/2 of the people say if it sounds OK, no need to do anything; and the other 1/2 say that you should check but not necessarily adjust. I guess your advice falls into the 2nd camp, but you think that since checking requires 90% of the work of adjusting, just go ahead and adjust. Sound about right?
To echo what has been said, a "valve job" usually means you remove the head(s) and have the valve-mating surfaces machined at a machine shop, along with replacing some valves and springs as needed ==> a big job.oc92037 said:Wade -- thanks.
After I posted my question, I saw several old threads where the consensus seems to be split: 1/2 of the people say if it sounds OK, no need to do anything; and the other 1/2 say that you should check but not necessarily adjust. I guess your advice falls into the 2nd camp, but you think that since checking requires 90% of the work of adjusting, just go ahead and adjust. Sound about right?
A valve adjustment requires removing the valve covers, measuring the gap with feeler gauges and adjusting the gap by loosening + tightening a lock nut.
So I think the previous poster is saying that in a TB job, you are removing most of the stuff you need to get to do the valve adjustment and it is not much more to go. I did my TB on my '99 at 105k miles and did the valve adjustment (all myself, in my driveway). I don't remember much about the adjustment, which probably means it was easy to do - but I do seem to recall that one set of the valve (intake or exhaust, I forget) all needed a slight adjustment.
So, I'd say do it, but make sure the mechanic does not charge you as if it is a standalone job. It's only a little more to do once you're doing the TB.
Doing the valve adjustment may be 10% extra work once you're doing the TB. And doing the actual adjustment of each valve (loosening, turning, re-tightening the lock nut) is maybe 10% of the "valve adjustment" procedure.
When people say "check but don't adjust" they are talking about just listening for clicking. It would make no sense to get all the way in there with feeler gauges and then not adjust it perfectly.
I guess it depends on what your mechanic really had in mind when he said he would "inspect it". The only way to truly inspect it is to actually measure the valve lash. If he had the valvecovers and intake removed in order to measure the lash, there's no reason he wouldn't make an adjustment if he found one out of spec....it's maybe an additional minute or two to make the adjsutment if he's already gone that far.oc92037 said:Wade -- thanks.
After I posted my question, I saw several old threads where the consensus seems to be split: 1/2 of the people say if it sounds OK, no need to do anything; and the other 1/2 say that you should check but not necessarily adjust. I guess your advice falls into the 2nd camp, but you think that since checking requires 90% of the work of adjusting, just go ahead and adjust. Sound about right?
Now, if by "inspect", he means he'll listen for valvetrain noise...then he's banking on the fact that a problem will present itself in the form of a noisy valvetrain....which isn't always the case.
Very interesting! I called 4 shops to price out the 105k service and they all quoted something in order of $350-400 for the "valve adjustment" portion of the 105k service package. Is that too much?oldskewel said:So I think the previous poster is saying that in a TB job, you are removing most of the stuff you need to get to do the valve adjustment and it is not much more to go.... //snip// ...
So, I'd say do it, but make sure the mechanic does not charge you as if it is a standalone job. It's only a little more to do once you're doing the TB. Doing the valve adjustment may be 10% extra work once you're doing the TB.
3-4 hours labour is correct.oc92037 said:Very interesting! I called 4 shops to price out the 105k service and they all quoted something in order of $350-400 for the "valve adjustment" portion of the 105k service package. Is that too much?
Sorry to hijack but how easy is this inspect when doing the spark plugs & timing belt?
Thanks!mjody said:3-4 hours labour is correct.
I'm still undecided whether a valve adjustment should be definitely included or done only if it sounds bad. It seems like there are equal number of proponents for each side....
Valves make noise when there is too much lash (clearance). Exhaust valves burn when they start sinking into their seats and their valve lash is not enough, so they do not cause noise (clicking).
It is not that hard to do it yourself and I believe that if you are going to do a TB change (including a water pump and tensioner, at the minimum), the valve covers will already be off and the valve lash adjustment should only take around a 1/2 hour.
BS on the $300 + if they are doing the TB also.
Buffalo
It is not that hard to do it yourself and I believe that if you are going to do a TB change (including a water pump and tensioner, at the minimum), the valve covers will already be off and the valve lash adjustment should only take around a 1/2 hour.
BS on the $300 + if they are doing the TB also.
Buffalo
Even when you're already replacing the timing belt and the water pump?mjody said:3-4 hours labour is correct.
Yea, that can't be right. The intake removal and install is like 30 minutes, clear out the EGR port is another 20 min, actual adjustment is 45 min.
Tell them you'll pay for another 2.5 hours labor but thats it.
-Kevin
Tell them you'll pay for another 2.5 hours labor but thats it.
-Kevin
not sure where all the information is coming from that the TB/waterpump/tensioner labor has anything to do with the valve adjustment. I've done both recently, and I'm struggling to think of a step (other than opening the hood!) that was common to both.
3-4 hours is pretty accurate
3-4 hours is pretty accurate
You are correct in that the valve covers are not removed while doing the TB on the Ody.wadechamberlain said:not sure where all the information is coming from that the TB/waterpump/tensioner labor has anything to do with the valve adjustment. I've done both recently, and I'm struggling to think of a step (other than opening the hood!) that was common to both.
3-4 hours is pretty accurate
Sorry, I was thinking about when I did a valve adjustment on my friends 2000 CRV which needs the valve cover removed to do the timing belt.
My mistake.
Buffalo4
There is no labour overlap on the V6 models. To do it right the first tie is 3-4 hours. The 4 cyliners sure, you have the valve cover off.oc92037 said:Even when you're already replacing the timing belt and the water pump?
Thanks all.
It seems like I should have the valves adjusted w/ my 105k service, just to be safe.
(Would love to do it myself but don't have the time).
It seems like I should have the valves adjusted w/ my 105k service, just to be safe.
(Would love to do it myself but don't have the time).
OK, so I took my Odyssey into an independent Honda garage and talked for a while with the owner/chief mechanic there, an old guy in his 60's, and he said he strongly recommends the valve adjustment because valves can become tighter over time and burn out. He said long ago they didn't push that as a part of the 105k service because the dealers didn't either and they needed to stay competitive, but they started seeing cars come in w/ burnt out valves, so now for them it's a standard part of the 105k service. So I'm going for it.
Thank all for your input on this thread. It helped me feel better about where I should take my car in for the 105k service.
Thank all for your input on this thread. It helped me feel better about where I should take my car in for the 105k service.
That is a wise man you have working on your chariot San Diego guy. 
Just did a valve adjustment yesterday on my '99, as part of some general trouble shooting (rough running - there's another thread on that which I'll update when I know what it was).
190k miles now. I adjusted the valves at 105k when I also did the timing belt. Both are scheduled at 105k miles, which is why I did them together.
It is a little easier if done at the time of the TB. (especially for someone like me where a not insignificant amount of any car work includes moving the kids bikes out of the garage so I can get to my tools).
One example is the need to remove the front cam pulley cover when adjusting the valves. There are 5 screws holding this on, and removing the screws is easier if things are removed for the TB job. Even after removing all 5 screws (hopefully not dropping any), I found I needed to loosen the engine oil dipstick bracket screw so I could pull the dipstick tube out slightly so I could get the pulley cover off. All told, even without counting time spent for the one screw I dropped when re-installing, this one item probably took me about an extra hour to remove and replace. Yes, it would take 2 minutes with the engine out of the car. Sure someone who does this every day will be faster than 1 hour round trip, but it is a tricky step.
I had heard a clicking, but it looks like it was not a valve. None of the valves were tight. About 3 or 4 were within spec (range is 0.04 mm). The rest were all between 0.01 and 0.04 mm too loose. I don't think this would have caused any problems if I had not adjusted them for a while. Since they generally loosened, I targeted the adjustment to the tight end of the specified range.
By the way, here are the notes I took for myself for when I do it again at ~300k miles.
Remove intake manifold, valve covers.
Tough part is to then remove the front cam pulley cover: 5 10mm screws (careful not to drop one); to remove cover will then require loosening the 10mm screw holding the oil dipstick tube in place; loosen (but don't remove, otherwise it would be difficult to get it started again) screw then pulley cover can be pulled out (towards right side of car), allowing the indentation to clear the pulley; this step alone takes about 1 hour to remove and replace.
17mm socket on 1/2" breaker bar, rotate 4-5-6 cam pulley bolt clockwise until mark on edge of cam points to the #1 cylinder at TDC. Specifically, the little tick mark right on the edge of the pulley teeth lines up with the line on the cam housing. The other marks on the pulley, closer to the center, are for checking when looking through the rubber-plug-covered hole in the cam pulley cover. Ignore those.
Adjust intake valves first (2 per cylinder). Measure and note clearance prior to adjustment. Probably loose by about 0.02-0.04 mm. Since all valves tended to loosen since last adjustment, I decided to aim for the lower bound when adjusting. Slide in feeler gauge equal to the lower bound (0.20 mm for intake, 0.28 mm for exhaust). Adjust screw while sliding feeler back and forth to find point where it binds, then back off that a hair and tighten the lock nut. Double check tightness after locking lock nut (10mm closed end wrench), and next size up in feeler gauge should only partially go in (e.g., some fraction of the width of the tappet).
Rotate cam pulley 60 degrees at a time, do for all 6 sets of intake valves.
Same thing for exhaust valves, except 0.28-0.32 mm spec; use second set of feeler gauges that has exact 0.28 mm feeler gauge.
Slightly smarter variation on the above might be to start with the #4 intake valve instead of #1, since it is more visible and accessible. Can get a feel for things on the easier ones before doing the back ones. The rear exhaust valves are purely by feel.
Doing all intakes then all exhausts was for simplicity of not swapping feeler gauges and maybe making a mistake. Easy enough to rotate the cam one more revolution.
190k miles now. I adjusted the valves at 105k when I also did the timing belt. Both are scheduled at 105k miles, which is why I did them together.
It is a little easier if done at the time of the TB. (especially for someone like me where a not insignificant amount of any car work includes moving the kids bikes out of the garage so I can get to my tools).
One example is the need to remove the front cam pulley cover when adjusting the valves. There are 5 screws holding this on, and removing the screws is easier if things are removed for the TB job. Even after removing all 5 screws (hopefully not dropping any), I found I needed to loosen the engine oil dipstick bracket screw so I could pull the dipstick tube out slightly so I could get the pulley cover off. All told, even without counting time spent for the one screw I dropped when re-installing, this one item probably took me about an extra hour to remove and replace. Yes, it would take 2 minutes with the engine out of the car. Sure someone who does this every day will be faster than 1 hour round trip, but it is a tricky step.
I had heard a clicking, but it looks like it was not a valve. None of the valves were tight. About 3 or 4 were within spec (range is 0.04 mm). The rest were all between 0.01 and 0.04 mm too loose. I don't think this would have caused any problems if I had not adjusted them for a while. Since they generally loosened, I targeted the adjustment to the tight end of the specified range.
By the way, here are the notes I took for myself for when I do it again at ~300k miles.
Remove intake manifold, valve covers.
Tough part is to then remove the front cam pulley cover: 5 10mm screws (careful not to drop one); to remove cover will then require loosening the 10mm screw holding the oil dipstick tube in place; loosen (but don't remove, otherwise it would be difficult to get it started again) screw then pulley cover can be pulled out (towards right side of car), allowing the indentation to clear the pulley; this step alone takes about 1 hour to remove and replace.
17mm socket on 1/2" breaker bar, rotate 4-5-6 cam pulley bolt clockwise until mark on edge of cam points to the #1 cylinder at TDC. Specifically, the little tick mark right on the edge of the pulley teeth lines up with the line on the cam housing. The other marks on the pulley, closer to the center, are for checking when looking through the rubber-plug-covered hole in the cam pulley cover. Ignore those.
Adjust intake valves first (2 per cylinder). Measure and note clearance prior to adjustment. Probably loose by about 0.02-0.04 mm. Since all valves tended to loosen since last adjustment, I decided to aim for the lower bound when adjusting. Slide in feeler gauge equal to the lower bound (0.20 mm for intake, 0.28 mm for exhaust). Adjust screw while sliding feeler back and forth to find point where it binds, then back off that a hair and tighten the lock nut. Double check tightness after locking lock nut (10mm closed end wrench), and next size up in feeler gauge should only partially go in (e.g., some fraction of the width of the tappet).
Rotate cam pulley 60 degrees at a time, do for all 6 sets of intake valves.
Same thing for exhaust valves, except 0.28-0.32 mm spec; use second set of feeler gauges that has exact 0.28 mm feeler gauge.
Slightly smarter variation on the above might be to start with the #4 intake valve instead of #1, since it is more visible and accessible. Can get a feel for things on the easier ones before doing the back ones. The rear exhaust valves are purely by feel.
Doing all intakes then all exhausts was for simplicity of not swapping feeler gauges and maybe making a mistake. Easy enough to rotate the cam one more revolution.
You do not have to remove the front cam cover. There is a rubber plug that you pop off and the cylinder mark is right there.
1 - 20 of 28 Posts
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