[verbatim]

I find it interesting that so many claim that disabling VCM caused no decrease in fuel economy, based purely on faith and anecdotal observation. So we are to believe Honda included this system which had no benefit whatsoever other than reliability risk, for what? A practical joke? And the EPAs higher mileage figures were... lies?

Most people, including myself, say that the fuel economy drops by about 1-2 mpg. I think others that report no change, may have adjusted their driving habits unconsciously. The reason I say this is that when I was running without the VCMuzzler, there were certain parts of the road that because VCM was activated, the vehicle would slow perceptively and I would have to get on the gas to keep speed going up the incline. I would find myself anticipating this loss of power and accelerating out of VCM mode before I had to just to keep up with traffic. The ECU kicks out of VCM mode when you need to accelerate up a hill, but by the time it does, you're already scrubbed off speed and you have to get on the gas more to get back up to speed. EPA tests aren't real world, so some of these kinds of situations won't be emulated.

As I said, I think the majority of the people do report some loss in fuel economy, however, some of the changes in how the vehicle drives may change people's driving habits, which could account for a lesser drop. Not to mention, if your drive or driving habits do not lend to long stretches of cruising at constant speed, then you'll see very little difference in your fuel economy.

The pitfalls of VCM are well documented, and I'm not going to rehash them here. There were plenty of early problems, hence the lawsuit and all the warranty work and warranty extensions. Honda's "fix" of just engaging all the cylinders more frequently to prevent the bypassed oil that's pooled up in your cylinders to accumulate to the point that you get detonation and ring damage, doesn't sit well with me at all. You shouldn't have to do that if the system worked as well as they claimed. People are still getting excessive oil consumption with VCM, Honda just makes sure they burn it off more often.

This debate will never end, there will always be those that believe there's no way Honda would do something that's not in everyone's best interest. Fact remains that they save at least 80 million dollars a year by lowering their epa rating by 1 mpg, plus it's a selling feature to many people who don't know what it really does. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just prefer to look at evidence before I formulate my opinion, rather than just take Honda's word for it.

 

[CroMath]

I find it interesting that so many claim that disabling VCM caused no decrease in fuel economy, based purely on faith and anecdotal observation.

This makes me laugh. Anecdotal observation is the only way to generate fuel consumption numbers - you watch how far you drive and you watch how much fuel you pump into your tank. Divide one value by the other and presto; a miles per gallon value that actually means something to you in real life.

If you believe you are getting the fuel economy that Honda says you should be without ever verifying it with your own calculations, you are taking far more on faith than any of us who have installed a VCM suppression device. And you're on much shakier ground doing it.

So we are to believe Honda included this system which had no benefit whatsoever other than reliability risk, for what? A practical joke? And the EPAs higher mileage figures were... lies?

No, the EPA mileage figures are not lies. I absolutely believe that the window sticker accurately conveys the test results. The problem is that the test conditions do not reflect the realities of everyday life for the overwhelming majority of drivers.

My theory is that Honda uses VCM primarily because it gives excellent results on the EPA fuel consumption test loop. It allows Honda to meet the CAFE requirements set out by the EPA in the most cost-effective way possible. All the other ways that Honda could reduce the fuel consumption of vehicles as large as the Odyssey, Pilot, and Ridgeline are far more difficult or labour-intensive, and therefore expensive.

I do not believe that Honda cares whether or not VCM actually reduces fuel consumption in real life; no one buys two-and-a-half ton V6-powered people and cargo haulers expecting to get great mileage. If it happens to improve fuel economy for some drivers in daily use, so much the better, but I think that's considered a fringe benefit from Honda's perspective. This is also why I believe that Honda doesn't really care if some proactive owners out there suppress VCM; Honda has already gotten everything they need out of it before you ever drive the van off the lot.

A more cynical interpretation of all this is that VCM is for Honda basically just like Volkswagen's "Dieselgate" software in purpose and intent, except it's out in the open and therefore legal. It's Honda's way of gaming the system. It's all about saving money, not fuel. If Honda's large vehicles exposed the company to CAFE violation penalties, they'd become prohibitively expensive to both Honda and consumers. Honda probably doesn't produce and sell enough Fits, Civics and HR-Vs to offset the Odysseys, Pilots and Ridgelines without VCM's help.

 

[afrix]

I find it interesting that so many claim that disabling VCM caused no decrease in fuel economy, based purely on faith and anecdotal observation. So we are to believe Honda included this system which had no benefit whatsoever other than reliability risk, for what? A practical joke? And the EPAs higher mileage figures were... lies?

The benefit is to American Honda Motor Manufacturing and its business strategy of making an EPA number. Period.

American Honda knows VCM is crappy and destructive. Frankly, they don't care. They benefit from having this system to show the EPA and the buyer, and they expect it to last through a lease and/or warranty but not longer.

American Honda no longer cares about long term ownership. The American Honda of the '80s and '90s is long gone, replaced by beancounters who only want to rape their reputation for a short term gain.

I realized back in 2009 what their game was, with my '02 Ody and its transmission and Honda's treatment of me in that regard. But then, I'm an oddball who buys and keeps a car--not one of the sheeple who just lease and return every 3 years.

Honda isn't alone in this mentality. Hyundai/Kia with their GDI engines, has created a problem with valves gunking up and requiring a regular and expensive maintenance procedure.

Welcome to the world. "Give us money and go away. We don't care." Just wait until the new Honda turbo engines all turn out to be crapola, 3 year lease/warranty wonders.

 

[Batvette]

... based purely on faith and anecdotal observation....

I think you just offended most people in this thread. Do you use only Honda approved methodology to track your fuel economy?
Did they supply you with a smart phone app? Or Honda made gasoline?

So we are to believe Honda included this system which had no benefit whatsoever other than reliability risk, for what? A practical joke? And the EPAs higher mileage figures were... lies?

You got one thing right EPA, thats about sums it up.
Please read posts about VCM, the lawsuit, the repairs, try to process the "Honda official explanation" of the issue.
Then come back here and "enlighten" us with your knowledge.

My point was that I didnt see a single post in this thread or any other where someone tracked their mileage in a meaningful manner before and after disabling VCM, yet many claim they dont notice any change. Many, including user Verbatim, acknowledge a 1-2 mpg loss. I understand the issue of possible detrimental effects, what is it you need to be enlightened about?
If there is a point to the discussion its wondering what the equation would be comparing the cost of additional fuel consumed over say, 100k miles, disabling VCM, (which appears to be a poorly thought through system) with the cost of probable repair costs incurred by leaving it alone. This is difficult to do if one includes testimonials with little scientific validity. Which, as you seem to admit, probably describes most of the posts in this thread.
As for tracking my own fuel economy, why the hell would I do that. I keep my foot in it till it runs low then fill er up. However I wouldnt purport to know if I used more or less than I did last month before I did a modification.

 

[Batvette]

I find it interesting that so many claim that disabling VCM caused no decrease in fuel economy, based purely on faith and anecdotal observation.

This makes me laugh. Anecdotal observation is the only way to generate fuel consumption numbers - you watch how far you drive and you watch how much fuel you pump into your tank. Divide one value by the other and presto; a miles per gallon value that actually means something to you in real life.

If you believe you are getting the fuel economy that Honda says you should be without ever verifying it with your own calculations, you are taking far more on faith than any of us who have installed a VCM suppression device. And you're on much shakier ground doing it.

Logical fail, do I have to explain why? I am not claiming I get the mileage Honda says I should get, thats an entirely different equation that no one could prove nor is even important. I am merely saying you could not reliably claim mileage is unchanged before and after a modification without accurate telemetry and measurement both before and after. Can you direct me to anyones' "real life" documentation here that I missed?

The rest of your post was interesting, informative and probably quite accurate. Thank you for that.

 

[CroMath]

Logical fail, do I have to explain why? I am not claiming I get the mileage Honda says I should get, thats an entirely different equation that no one could prove nor is even important. I am merely saying you could not reliably claim mileage is unchanged before and after a modification without accurate telemetry and measurement both before and after. Can you direct me to anyones' "real life" documentation here that I missed?

The rest of your post was interesting, informative and probably quite accurate. Thank you for that.

You actually could prove whether or not you are achieving a particular MPG value, but you choose to not keep track of that, which is fine.

I agree with you that a dose of skepticism is appropriate when considering fuel economy claims, but you really don't need exceptionally accurate measurements to detect a meaningful difference. If (fuel pumped)/(distance driven) is a sufficiently accurate methodology to establish a plausible baseline prior to modification, then it is sufficiently accurate to determine fuel consumption after the modification is installed. And I think that's what people are most likely doing.

In my particular case, we owned our 2015 Ody for about 8 months before I installed a VCMuzzler, which I consider sufficient driving time to establish a baseline fuel consumption level. We tended to range between 23-25 MPG based on actual volumes and distances (not trusting the onboard computer to calculate) for those eight months in mixed city/highway driving situations. Of course, outliers would occasionally occur if the weather happens to be very warm and we do more highway driving or if the weather is very cold and we are confined to urban driving and idling. We have now had a VCMuzzler installed for nearly two years since then and continue to get fuel consumption numbers between 23 and 25 MPG, with the same occasional outliers. I do not have all of these numbers stored in a spreadsheet or other document that I could share with you (I aspire to that level of organization, but have not yet achieved it), but these calculations form the basis for my statement that for our van, suppressing VCM did not significantly affect fuel consumption.

An old-fashioned "butt dynamometer" instinct is not appropriate to use in this conversation and should be discouraged - I'm with you on that. I also understand that it's tempting to presume that every report of "no real change" without any data presented is a case of confirmation bias. But I think it's a little unfair to presume that the absence of data presented implies that no data was ever collected.

Speaking for myself, I wish I had understood at the time of our purchase how interesting some of these conversations would become - I would have taken much more care to record real numerical data. To be honest, when we bought our van, I was only vaguely aware that VCM might be troublesome. I certainly did not know then what I know now. I thought transmission problems were going to be the biggest threat to a positive ownership experience. Live and learn.

Nice discussing this stuff with you.

 

[maxud]

My point was that I didnt see a single post in this thread or any other where someone tracked their mileage in a meaningful manner before and after disabling VCM, yet many claim they dont notice any change. Many, including user Verbatim, acknowledge a 1-2 mpg loss. I understand the issue of possible detrimental effects, what is it you need to be enlightened about?
If there is a point to the discussion its wondering what the equation would be comparing the cost of additional fuel consumed over say, 100k miles, disabling VCM, (which appears to be a poorly thought through system) with the cost of probable repair costs incurred by leaving it alone. This is difficult to do if one includes testimonials with little scientific validity. Which, as you seem to admit, probably describes most of the posts in this thread.
As for tracking my own fuel economy, why the hell would I do that. I keep my foot in it till it runs low then fill er up. However I wouldnt purport to know if I used more or less than I did last month before I did a modification.

I am not going to quote you messages in this thread, I recall reading many where people tracked their mileage prior and post putting a muzzler device.
And as CroMath stated, the only way I know how to accurately track fuel economy is take traveled miles and divide it by number of gallons put in.
You seem to be arguing many points at once. Anecdotal evidence, Honda's value of VCM, actual fuel economy vs stated fuel economy vs muzzled fuel economy.

My wife drives our Odyssey, and she could care less about recording fuel economy. I could tell that this week I only drove about 395 of full tank of gas vs 430 last week on my Maxima.
Thats just doing my normal day to day work commute 5 days a week. Traffic, weather, fuel formulation are just some of the things that effect fuel economy.
Even if you drove two vans side by side on identical commute, without muzzler being in the picture, you could get two different fuel economy numbers.
Why? Because things, like age of the car, condition of the engine, valve clearance, o2 sensors, etc.. all have effect on fuel economy as well.

Finally, I have not read any reports of - OMFG, my fuel economy just tanked.
This is actually what convinces me, because people are more likely to complain than to praise.

To move this conversation into positive stream, if you are the driver of the Odyssey, please record two fuel fill ups, one with and one without the muzzler.
Perhaps your own experiment will convince you more than a bunch of "internet experts".

Your do bring up one interesting point. Cost of muzzling the car vs driving as is and dealing with after effects.
There is an interesting parallel to USA health insurance market. All plans seem to subsidize wellness visits, which cause you to be proactive about your health.
But here are few concrete numbers for you: (I purposely ignore the fact that Honda covers some of the current costs, because we are talking hypothetical and next time it happens,
you will not have Honda extended warranty)

typical observation of VCM failure. CEL comes on. You pay for a visit to a dealer for diagnostic $80. Fowled up spark plugs - 6 plugs + labor = lets say $150. Next thing the dealer
offers you is to re-ring it - IDK $2k? Will discount the stress, time wasted for dealer visits, etc..
Now, lets look at side effects. Oil consumption, will cause premature engine wear. VCM activation effect on active engine mounts - I am not sold on this, but possibility of faster wear
with VCM enabled. Each mount is over $500 part.

Now lets look at 1mpg loss over 100k miles.
Lets assume that you average 24mpg before muzzler and 23mpg with muzzler, aka 1 mpg loss.
24 mpg will require 4166.66 gals of fuel over 100k miles
23 mpg will require 4347.82 gals of fuel over 100k miles
so 1mpg loss will result in 181.16 gals of extra fuel consumption over 100k miles.
Multiply it by cost of fuel, at $3 per gallon you are at $543.48

Everybody arrive at your own conclusion on this.

 

[marvinstockman]

The bottom line for me at least, is that the van drives better without VCM. No herk, no jerk. Just a smooth, as it should be, driving experience. Remember, L and EX have no VCM.

 

[Batvette]

Maxud, thanks for doing the math on that for me.

 

[MntnOdy]

I had to register to comment... OMG! Why the heck did I wait so long?!?! I installed Verbatim's muzzler on my wife's '13 Odyssey this morning then took it out for a drive: WOW! No jerking or shuddering - just a smooth ride. I've always hated driving the van - but this was actually... almost enjoyable. (Ha ha.) Installation was easy: less than 5 minutes following the instructions. Wow, wow, wow! Thanks, Verbatim!!!

 

[bigbadboss101]

Here is a question. I am about to order mine. When you see or walk by another ODY do you ask the driver if they know about VCM issues and the muzzler? I think once we install and like ours we would, consider it improves drivability and perhaps helps prevent the aforementioned problems.

 

[Boogety Boogety]

Here is a question. I am about to order mine. When you see or walk by another ODY do you ask the driver if they know about VCM issues and the muzzler? I think once we install and like ours we would, consider it improves drivability and perhaps helps prevent the aforementioned problems.

Here is another question. There are almost ninety pages of mostly glowing reviews right here for you to read. What, pray tell, do you think you will accomplish by asking random drivers about their VCMuzzler experience? Do you really think you're going to get different wisdom from what you read here?

Just get the thing and install it, and carry on. Hundreds of evidence-based experiences here say you should, so just do it... [insert facepalm thingy here]

 

[Hogan773]

Here is another question. There are almost ninety pages of mostly glowing reviews right here for you to read. What, pray tell, do you think you will accomplish by asking random drivers about their VCMuzzler experience? Do you really think you're going to get different wisdom from what you read here?

Just get the thing and install it, and carry on. Hundreds of evidence-based experiences here say you should, so just do it... [insert facepalm thingy here]

I think you might be misreading his post. It seems like he was saying that now that he has VCMuzzler, he might just approach other Ody owners as an "evangelist" and tell them how VCMuzzler is great and they should consider doing same to protect themselves from the devil of VCM....

 

[Hogan773]

The bottom line for me at least, is that the van drives better without VCM. No herk, no jerk. Just a smooth, as it should be, driving experience. Remember, L and EX have no VCM.

I must say I do like the Muzzler on my 2010 Odyssey

Have not taken the plunge on my 2014 Accord though. I don't get the same sensations on that car, and also haven't heard about the various plug fouling etc. Maybe the VCM on the 2014 is different? Anyway I kinda like the 36mpg I get in the Accord while freeway cruising so haven't popped the extra $$$ for a Muzzler for that car.

 

[CroMath]

Here is a question. I am about to order mine. When you see or walk by another ODY do you ask the driver if they know about VCM issues and the muzzler? I think once we install and like ours we would, consider it improves drivability and perhaps helps prevent the aforementioned problems.

I think you might be misreading his post. It seems like he was saying that now that he has VCMuzzler, he might just approach other Ody owners as an "evangelist" and tell them how VCMuzzler is great and they should consider doing same to protect themselves from the devil of VCM....

Outside of the OdyClub community, I find it hard to be an advocate for the VCMuzzler without either getting into a VERY lengthy conversation and explanation or sounding like Chicken Little. Although when the sky finally did fall for one of our friends with toasted engine mounts and sudden frightening oil consumption, they were gracious enough to acknowledge that I’d told them the failure was a real possibility.

People who come to this forum to ask questions or discuss about VCM are at least prepared to entertain the possibility that they are facing a serious problem. Joe Q Public Honda owner out there in the real world? Not so much.

 

[mholiver]

I do preach VCMuzzler to family & friends who have Hondas. My brother has a '11 & '15 Accord and I've mentioned it since he bought the '15 two years ago and I already had my Ody muzzled. Not sure why exactly, but finally he looked into it on Accord forums and was convinced VCM was bad. He found an inexpensive kit on ebay with the OEM plugs that you assemble yourself and went with that for both cars.

I'll also say I have a close friend who is and has been a local dealership salesman for decades. He stated the service dept knows the issues and even has changed out an engine or lower end under warranty or with a courtesy repair without admitting cause implying they don't attack an owner for lack of maintenance being the cause (that happens in other cases). That said, they unadmittedly know of the reports and do or say nothing negative when cars are brought in for service muzzled. I think they look the other way for personal attitudes/reasons even though they have to publicly tow the Honda line on the subject.

 

[cessnabmw]

I received the muzzler and just installed it. As soon as I turned on the vehicle, I got many errors: (2016 Honda Odyssey Touring)

• Check Emissions
• Check FCW (forward collision warning)
• Check LDW (lane departure warning)
• Check VSA

Per the manual, I have lowered the resistor to the yellow one for now.


I have a service scheduled on Monday at Honda and I need these codes cleared before I take it in!! What should I do?

 

[John Clark]

Did you install it not long after running the vehicle?

Lots of cars these days will set codes in multiple modules just because there is one code in the engine computer. Get yourself a cheap code reader and clear the engine code and hopefully that will cause the codes in the other modules to go away. You can get them on Amazon, the parts stores (more expensive) or see if your local Autozone or Advance Auto will clear them for you. You can disconnect the battery for a few minutes but sometimes that can be more trouble than it's worth with everything that needs to be reset after that.

 

[pappy]

I received the muzzler and just installed it. As soon as I turned on the vehicle, I got many errors: (2016 Honda Odyssey Touring)

• Check Emissions
• Check FCW (forward collision warning)
• Check LDW (lane departure warning)
• Check VSA

Per the manual, I have lowered the resistor to the yellow one for now.


I have a service scheduled on Monday at Honda and I need these codes cleared before I take it in!! What should I do?

Was your ody stone cold before you installed the muzzler?

 

[cessnabmw]

Did you install it not long after running the vehicle?

Lots of cars these days will set codes in multiple modules just because there is one code in the engine computer. Get yourself a cheap code reader and clear the engine code and hopefully that will cause the codes in the other modules to go away. You can get them on Amazon, the parts stores (more expensive) or see if your local Autozone or Advance Auto will clear them for you. You can disconnect the battery for a few minutes but sometimes that can be more trouble than it's worth with everything that needs to be reset after that.

Installed when cold then started the vehicle. Should not have to spend even more after paying for the VCM muzzler to clear the codes. Doubt anyone here would it free.

If I remove the muzzler, will the codes go away?