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VCM possible problems caused by ?

11K views 29 replies 11 participants last post by  BertS 
#1 · (Edited)
I didn't know where to put this so I thought I'd start a new thread...

Dealing with the VCM and burning oil, or ring problems, misfire, basically problems dealing with oil...

1) What oil EXACTLY was being used (from the very beginning)? I'm talking about name brands and ingredients etc.
2) And what oil filter was being used (from the very beginning)? Again, I'm talking about name brands etc.
(just a side note, there was a website that were testing all kinds of oil filters and found one of the worse filters were FRAM filters. They had a tendency to collapse over time.)

So, I was wondering what was being used from the start and up to the VCM problems occurred.

PS: The reason I ask this is because it all MOSTLY deals with moving parts that doesn't come into play until the computer tells it to. Meaning some items in the engine are stowed until activated via the computer. Thus if the engine oil is cheap or not that great, it might be causing gunk/stickiness in these OIL port holes (cutting the flow) for the oil to keep these VCM parts slick and oiled up (that are not always activated). AGAIN, I'm just curious...
 
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#2 ·
Most of these vans use synthetic oil and have had their normal oil changes. The type of oil and filter is not the issue.

Cutting the flow has more of an affect on the cylinder heads and valve trains, especially the VCM activation and deactivation, than the lower end of the engine. I'm not sure where you're going with this but it's not the cause of the VCM issues. Dead cylinders during cylinder pause and oil seeping past the rings is the cause of the VCM issues.
 
#6 ·
The problems aren't in the moving vtec/vcm parts in valve train that turn in and off. It's carbon'd up rings and fouled plugs that causes the vcm issues. If you're referring to vcm etc codes then that is another story and the oil and filter used used can have a big impact.
 
#10 · (Edited)
You have this backwards; it's the VCM issues that cause stuck rings and fouled plugs. Non-VCM Honda J35 engines (and cylinders 5 & 6 within VCM2 engines) do not ever have these issues. Period - full stop. The cylinders that always stay on don't have this happen.

John is right when he says that there are a lot of variables involved in VCM operation. It's frustrating to have no satisfactory explanation for why some people seem to get lucky and avoid the whole mess and others don't. No one seems to have been able to pull all the different strands together into a cohesive understanding yet.
 
#8 ·
I believe the all have the problem, just to varying degrees. Again, it depends on how often vcm kicks on and off. That's why they came out with a pcm update that addresses that. It helped but problems still exist. Having cylinders moving but not firing means there is no combustion event to burn any traces of oil. Heat in the cylinders will cause the oil to foul the plugs and collect in the rings causing some compression loss because the rings stick. Again, there are so many variables between each engine, how and where it's driven, how long it's driven, how long vcm kicks on and off for, etc. How bad the rings stick will affect how much oil is burned.
 
#11 ·
CroMath, As to "No one seems to have been able to pull all the different strands together into a cohesive understanding yet." is because those like you constantly reject anything unless it goes your way. If you really want a "...cohesive understanding..." and "...why some people seem to get lucky and avoid the whole mess and others don't." then STOP rejecting and start NOTING what people are using in the way of Flash Point per Oil name brand, filters, DRIVING HABITS, mileage, or ANYTHING and so on. Nowhere have I seen anyone record/note this information other than rejecting and or masking the problem.
 
#12 ·
Dude, what's your deal? Troll much?

What it comes down to is that the VCM system is flawed, plain and simple. Yes it affects some and it doesn't affect others, basically at random. The people here have given you sufficient, logical reasoning as to why the VCM causes engine issues. YOU are the one doing the rejecting of their opinions based on experience. If you want to get into someone's ass about the problem, try the engineers at Honda. Otherwise have a great day.
 
#14 · (Edited)
You're absolutely right that there is no unified database that records all of the maintenance procedures, products and intervals that various owners have used. But your accusation of bias is inappropriate.

I am simply following the evidence available to me, and that evidence says that of those owners who do have problems with stuck piston rings and fouled spark plugs, the level of maintenance seems to be completely irrelevant to the fact that cylinders 5 & 6 are never part of the problem. Even Honda corporate confirms this. Cylinders 5 & 6 are getting the same oil passed through the same filter as cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4 so why don't they get gummed up? Ever. What sets cylinders 1 through 4 apart from cylinders 5 & 6 within the same engine? I'll leave you to cogitate on that for a while but I've got my own working theory on what the difference is, and I'll tell you it has nothing to do with Brand X vs Brand Y down at the auto parts store.

I have no trouble believing that driving habits and typical traffic patterns encountered are highly influential factors in the likelihood of running into VCM trouble, and that's because those things are highly influential in how often VCM is activated. If you are regularly in heavy urban traffic, if your trips are overwhelmingly of the short variety, if you have a lead foot, you are unlikely to get VCM shutting down cylinders as much as you would be if your trips were mostly on the highways with long and flat topographies between destinations or if you tend to drive conservatively and give it only as much gas as it needs and no more. But if the number of activations determines (or is even related to) the likelihood of problems, then the logical extension of the premise would be that if the system never activates then there are never any problems. I'm happy to take those odds.

If VCM is disabled, you have the freedom to drive wherever you need to and however you want to with complete impunity. Heavy foot, light foot, empty highways, crammed downtown avenues, mountains, prairies... doesn't matter. Live your life and don't think about what is happening with the van. And my experience is that our fuel economy did not suffer. So knowing that now, in retrospect, we probably would have been OK doing nothing. But "probably" isn't the same as "definitely".

I'll admit I'm a cheap ba**ard and when we first got our van, I took great pleasure in seeing how long I could keep the "ECO" light lit because I'd see the instantaneous fuel economy shoot upwards whenever I did. I loved the idea that I was saving gas, and therefore money - it was like a video game I could play while I drove. But I value reliability over a little gas money. My family life is such that taking our van out of service for a single day to get a recall done is a big deal. To lose access to the van for multiple days or even a week would be horrible. And to have that happen for something that I could have foreseen and easily prevented borders on irresponsible. I can't permit that in my house.

So I am really not biased against anything or anyone. I choose to eliminate the risk without bothering to ascertain its actual magnitude first - that information, for me and my family, falls into the category of "nice to have but don't really need it". I think I have been open about that mindset for quite some time around here. YMMV - literally and figuratively.
 
#16 · (Edited)
You're absolutely right that there is no unified database that records all of the maintenance procedures, products and intervals that various owners have used. But your accusation of bias is inappropriate.

I am simply following the evidence available to me, and that evidence says that of those owners who do have problems with stuck piston rings and fouled spark plugs, the level of maintenance seems to be completely irrelevant to the fact that cylinders 5 & 6 are never part of the problem. Even Honda corporate confirms this. Cylinders 5 & 6 are getting the same oil passed through the same filter as cylinders 1, 2, 3, 4 so why don't they get gummed up? Ever. What sets cylinders 1 through 4 apart from cylinders 5 & 6 within the same engine? I'll leave you to cogitate on that for a while but I've got my own working theory on what the difference is, and I'll tell you it has nothing to do with Brand X vs Brand Y down at the auto parts store.

I have no trouble believing that driving habits and typical traffic patterns encountered are highly influential factors in the likelihood of running into VCM trouble, and that's because those things are highly influential in how often VCM is activated. If you are regularly in heavy urban traffic, if your trips are overwhelmingly of the short variety, if you have a lead foot, you are unlikely to get VCM shutting down cylinders as much as you would be if your trips were mostly on the highways with long and flat topographies between destinations or if you tend to drive conservatively and give it only as much gas as it needs and no more. But if the number of activations determines (or is even related to) the likelihood of problems, then the logical extension of the premise would be that if the system never activates then there are never any problems. I'm happy to take those odds.

If VCM is disabled, you have the freedom to drive wherever you need to and however you want to with complete impunity. Heavy foot, light foot, empty highways, crammed downtown avenues, mountains, prairies... doesn't matter. Live your life and don't think about what is happening with the van. And my experience is that our fuel economy did not suffer. So knowing that now, in retrospect, we probably would have been OK doing nothing. But "probably" isn't the same as "definitely".

Look, I'm a cheap ba**ard and when we first got our van, I took great pleasure in seeing how long I could keep the "ECO" light lit because I'd see the instantaneous fuel economy shoot upwards whenever I did. I loved the idea that I was saving gas, and therefore money - it was like a video game I could play while I drove. But I value reliability over a little gas money. My family life is such that taking our van out of service for a single day to get a recall done is a big deal. To lose access to the van for multiple days or even a week would be horrible. And to have that happen for something that I could have foreseen and easily prevented borders on irresponsible. So I choose to eliminate the risk without bothering to ascertain its actual magnitude first - that information, for me and my family, falls into the category of "nice to have but don't really need it". YMMV - literally and figuratively.
As to the part about being cheap, you're not alone... I use to try to keep the green ECO lit up too, but after hearing about others that had problems as to the shutting down of cylinders, oil build up, fouling of spark plugs... I stopped doing that (keeping the GREEN going). I now drive normal and sometimes keep the green ECO from staying on too long. (basically like the Muzzler but without the mod... Meaning, I will slightly give it gas depending). I have a 2012 but only 30,600 miles on it for which is not enough time to know about any of the good/bad results to come. I use Mobil 1 fully-syn and change every 6,000 miles (Old School). I first changed my AFT with Honda ATF Synthetic, DW-1 and filter @ 12,700 miles... Plus I pull a very small camper now and then (not a lot).
 
#19 ·
As to the part about being cheap, you're not alone... I use to try to keep the green ECO lit up too, but after hearing about others that had problems as to the shutting down of cylinders, oil build up, fouling of spark plugs... I stopped doing that (keeping the GREEN going). I now drive normal and sometimes keep the green ECO from staying on too long. (basically like the Muzzler but without the mod... Meaning, I will slightly give it gas depending). I have a 2012 but only 30,600 miles on it for which is not enough time to know about any of the good/bad results to come. I use Mobil 1 fully-syn and change every 6,000 miles (Old School). I first changed my AFT with Honda ATF Synthetic, DW-1 and filter @ 12,700 miles... Plus I pull a very small camper now and then (not a lot).
There are plenty out there using Mobile 1 who have the problem. If you're implying that using a different oil would help with this, I don't think that's the case. The synthetic oils are just not that different. The problem is that of those who say "I've had no problem" do they know how much oil they use between oil changes? Of those that aren't even aware of the problem, do they know how much oil is used between oil changes? Most people go get their oil changed and the tech just drains it and puts in the right amount of fresh oil, nobody ever knowing it was low to begin with. Maybe the problem never gets to the point of a misfire because new plugs were put in at the 105K mark but before things got to the misfire point. Maybe they drive more city miles, maybe they have a lead foot. When my wife drives our van it gets considerably lower fuel economy and it's due to how she drives...she's an on/off the gas driver. I know because I've ridden with her. I drive with a more steady and smooth foot and when I drive it it gets better mileage but I'll bet the ECO light would come on more when I drive it than when she drives it. These types of differences will be all over the board when it comes to the entire fleet of these vehicles out there.

Disable VCM and you'll never have the problem. Leave it enabled and you might or might not have the problem. Personally, I prefer the former. The info is out there, everyone can make their own decisions. In my opinion, it's inexpensive prevention. We all change our oil, trans fluid, brake fluid, coolant, power steering fluid, etc. to prevent future problems. Can you prove to me that changing your coolant will make your radiator last longer? Many radiators fail prematurely and many don't (I have 203K on my original radiator.) Can you tell me why? Is it because I've change the coolant? I've seen radiators fail that have had coolant changes. There are just so many variables for everything.
 
#13 ·
silverctr, what a moron, I started this thread... You're the one trolling, troll!

I know its "...flawed, plain and simple", but if others are having good results, than it time to start checking out why others are doing well with it and not playing dumb. silverctr, the world is not flat like experts claim centuries ago.
As to YOU wanting the truth, YOU can get into someone's ass about the problem and try the engineers at Honda... Goodluck with that communicating with Honda...
 
#15 ·
Trolls can start threads, but I digress.

Since you don't seem to have any VCM related issues, tear down your motor and tell us why you're doing so great. Be sure to give serial numbers on every part so we can figure out if you got a Monday motor or a Friday motor, or whatever the case may be.
 
#18 ·
[FONT=&quot]I have gotten on your website to look at cars, it will [/FONT][FONT=&quot]not load the photos. It says LOADING but never does. Can you please tell me [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]if there is a problem or glitch on your site? I have never had this problem [/FONT][FONT=&quot]before.[/FONT]
 
#20 ·
As informative as a large-scale database of maintenance information would be, it's unrealistic to think one could ever be successfully built because it would require an unreasonable amount of discipline on the part of the participants to provide reliable or useable information.

Just as a single example, if we're ever to form a general conclusion about how much oil is lost over a certain interval in our engines, knowing the amount of oil drained during an oil change would be a critical piece of data to have. But getting just that one measurement is already asking more than most will do. If you have your oil changed at a shop, they absolutely won't do that for you, so those Ody owners would be no help at all.

All right then - so if we want that information, we can only ask people who do their own oil changes and then also require them to take the extra step of measuring how much oil is in the drain pan (because not everyone does that as a normal part of an oil change).

But if we exclude people who do not do their own auto maintenance, I'll bet we wind up with a very small (and probably non-representative) sample of the general ownership population. It just wouldn't work.
 
#21 ·
2014 exl, full syntetic every 7K miles since new. I never hear of VCM problem (nor did I even know what VCM was) untill I did my own spark plug change at 100K. I found oil on 2 out of 6 plugs. Oil on plug is telling me something. To me, it's not normal. So I started to research and took action to prevent premature damage. After gathering enough knowledge from forums such as this, I made my own resistor bypass + oil catch can and it disabled the ECO. I also tell my friends who own Honda V6 my experience and they can do what I did or not. Up to them.
 
#24 ·
Hey all just a quick question about this topic..i have 14 touring elite, had it for 2 years now, 62k on it. I have not put this muzzler on my van yet. My questions are #1 I assume most people on this board would highly recommend putting this on your vehicle, so where can I purchase this at? #2 I take it to the dealer for all maintenance, would I have to take it back off before going to the dealer for any work to be done?? BTW its not under any warranty ....
 
#26 ·
Hey all just a quick question about this topic..i have 14 touring elite, had it for 2 years now, 62k on it. I have not put this muzzler on my van yet. My questions are #1 I assume most people on this board would highly recommend putting this on your vehicle, so where can I purchase this at? #2 I take it to the dealer for all maintenance, would I have to take it back off before going to the dealer for any work to be done?? BTW its not under any warranty ....
You can Google either VCMTuner or S-VCM and their websites come right up at the top of the search results page.

As for whether you would have to take it off before dealer service, the answer is no, given that you have no warranty left. The S-VCM might have to have its power lead disconnected if you are having some throttle body work done or a coolant flush done - that wouldn't be true with VCMTuner II. For regular oil changes and things like that, it truly doesn't matter - the apprentices and other youngsters they have changing oil don't generally notice anything. I've been to the dealer a number of times with a VCM disable device installed and functioning and no one said a word.
 
#27 ·
i agree with cro and john dont install and take your chances or install one and have piece of mind. my experiance was re ring 1 thru 4 installed vcm muzzler the day it came back. installed as shipped, and no further issues. i pulled all plugs after approx 9000 miles of use and all looked the same. i also agree that the way these vans are driven has alot to do with if this problem pops up. seems the vans that are driven harder dont have fouled plugs cuz vcm doesnt kick in and shut cys down. i am probably the green lite grand prix world champion, but dont drive it every day, while wifey tends to go gentle away from stop lites, and crusies on interstates alot. you paid for all 6 cyls so i use them all. fuel economy did slightly dip, .5 mpg, so no big deal. these guys on this site really are a good bunch, and i am forever in their debt for showing me the lite.
 
#30 ·
I considered both S-VCM and VCMTuner II before buying the VCMTuner II. There were 3 main reasons for my decision:

1) the S-VCM wasn't in stock at the time and showed an availability date a couple of weeks later.
2) I felt the additional cost (included differences in shipping) of about $17 for VCMTuner II was worth the added functionality it provided over S-VCM. The price difference will be even less if you would want to add an inline fuse holder and fuse to the S-VCM as some people have done for peace of mind (VCMTuner II has an inline fuse holder and fuse).
3) Recommended by John Clark

Here is a thread I started on VCMTuner II if anyone is interested in more information:

https://www.odyclub.com/forums/52-2005-2010-odyssey/351897-vcmtuner-ii.html
 
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