Rear main seal leaking.

drslums · Jul 13, 2014

I have an 07 with 163K miles on it. There were no leaking until about 2 weeks ago I found oil spot at the parking place. I went under the van then I see oil under the transmission (it's oil with yellow color and smell not transmission fluid with pink color). I wiped it off then took the PCV valve out and clean with carburetor spraying can. A lot of black stuff getting out of the PCV valve and the hole where I took the valve out. I put the PVC valve back again then the leaking event worst. I've lost about haft a quart over the last 2 weeks. One thing I can see is if I clean everything and leave the van over night there is no visible leak but if I drive the car for about 50 mile then I can see the oil drip when I stop. Also, I can smell the oil burning (maybe the oil leaking out then get burn by the exhaust line). I took the PCV valve out again then I can see oil at the bottom of it. Is that normal when I found oil at PCV valve?
What do you guy think?
1. Is that the PCV valve symptom? Should I change it because after the cleaning, I still can hear the clicking sound when shake it.
2. If the seal gone bad, will the oil leak when park? I asked so because if the oil level is below the seal then it will not leak event if the seal gone bad.
3. What is the worst case if I that the rear main case seal leak and I dont fix it? I know that it's an expensive fix but I dont wanna pay like more than $1K for the van. How about just keep adding oil?
Thank you.

dbosch · Jul 13, 2014

1. It could be but based on the age of the engine, it probably is not. If the PCV will allow air passage, that isn't it. It is most likely the seal.

2. When parked, you will only see drippage from whatever has collected in the transmission bell housing. With this oil being so thin, it will drool pretty quickly out of the engine. The seal is above the oil an only gets wet inside the engine when the engine is running.

3. If you don't fix it, the seal will continue to deteriorate and let oil past when the engine is running. You will need to manage the lost oil constantly. The same thing happened on my 2000 Accord where it the seal let go at 110,000 ish miles. The only fix was to separate the engine/transmission and replace it. My Accord was spilling a lot of oil all at once. My wife left in the car and I went into the garage and saw a lot of oil on the floor. A very sick feeling.

pacobeagle · Jul 14, 2014

I can assure you that it's most likely the rear main seal. There is an inspection plate (black in color with two 10mm bolts). You should be able to see with a flashlight to verify.
I did my own back in Nov. '13 with roughly 136-140k miles on the odometer.

drslums · Jul 14, 2014

I took the black cover off which is hold by the 2 of 10mm bolts and saw the oil there but no oil at the transmission side.
What did you do with your car? How much does it cost? Do you think change to heavier oil is a good idea?

pacobeagle · Jul 14, 2014

i removed the subframe, and then transmission in order to replace the rear main seal....However,did so as part of replacing the torque converter due to a shudder condition. I've since, removed the trans yet again to rebuild it due to harsh engagement while going to "R" from "P" or "N".
I'd suggest against the heavier oil. The engine is best suited to use the 5W-20.

davedrivesody · Jul 14, 2014

+1 to stay with the recommended oil viscosity.

Try an oil seal additive. I don't normally suggest such stuff, but it just might save you a grand.

Dave

drslums · Jul 23, 2014

I changed the PCV valve but the oil still leak so I came to the dealer today. They said it's oil pan crack. How is it possible (like did I hit something etc)? Anyway they want $414 for fixing it now or $120 for the check up only so I told them go a head and change it. My calculation is if I bring it to other mechanic then it might be more than haft of $414 plus $120 that I have to pay the dealer anyway so I will save less than $100 (about 70 to 80) if do it at non-authorized dealer (not worth all of the headache if any) so I told them to change it.
I search all over the forum and I still inclined to the rear main seal problem. My next question is:
1. How often you see the oil pan crack on a 3rd generation? What is the most frequent reason?
2. What will happen if the oil still leak and this time they find out that the rear main seal is the main reason? Will they deduct the cost of the oil pan to the rear main seal?
Thank you.

CB900F2 · Jul 23, 2014

Hi Drslums... I assume they gave you your oilpan back.. if so, do you mind taking some photos of the area they indicated is cracked and post them?...

Thanks

drslums · Jul 23, 2014

Of course I will ask them the oil pan back and post the picture.

davedrivesody · Jul 23, 2014

Good idea to ask for the return of the old oil pan so you can confirm that it is cracked. IIRC, this is very rare.

If it doesn't look cracked and if the leak is still there, you will have a good case to get a credit for the oil pan replacement toward replacing the rear main seal.

In the meantime, I will keep my fingers crossed that replacing the oil pan will fix the leak.

Dave

surgeon · Jul 24, 2014

Quick q. Where is the black cover located to peek at the rear seal? I wanted to check mine too. I have leak still and supposedly my seal was replaced during trans job. Just want to make sure. Thanks.

drslums · Jul 24, 2014

The black plate is the one between the transmission and the engine block. You can take 2 of 10mm off then the plate will fall off easy.

I take the van back. They said they through the oil pan away so they cannot give it to me even if I called at 11AM and they said the part (oil pan) were not there yet and when they called me back again at 2PM and said the van were ready. At that time I asked for the old oil pan and they said they through it away.
More importanly: The van still leaking. What should I do now?

DerbyDad03 · Jul 24, 2014

What state do you live in? It differs by state as shown by these 2 examples:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Michigan Law:

Return Replaced Parts

Along with an itemized final invoice, the law entitles the customer to all replaced parts.

If the customer neither asks for a replaced part nor authorizes you to throw it away – in other words, he or she does not mention the part – you must keep it for two business days after the vehicle is picked up.

California Law

Return of old Parts

When you sign the written estimate or work order, you can ask the shop to return to you any parts that were replaced. The shop is required by law to return the parts to you only if you ask for them before the work is done.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

That said, it seems a little strange that even if they did throw the part away between 11 AM and 2 PM, one might assume (dangerous, I know) that the part would still be on the premises. You could do a little investigating and find out when their dumpsters are emptied. If they aren't normally emptied between between 11 AM and 2 PM on the weekday of the incident, the fact that they wouldn't give it back to you because they "threw it away" is very suspicious.

Have you spoken to a manager yet? That would certainly be my next step.

drslums · Jul 24, 2014

I live in Oklahoma. What should I tell him?

txn · Jul 25, 2014

You will tell them
1) you brought the car to the dealership to fix an oil leaking problem
2) the dealership diagnosed the leaking problem and worked on the leak. The repair costs you $414.
3) after the first repair, the van is still leaking, so the first repair was not fixing the problem.
Please fix the leak again and apply the $414 credit to the 2nd repair.

DerbyDad03 · Jul 25, 2014

I couldn't find the Oklahoma law regarding the return of replaced parts. You could call the number for your state's Consumer Protection office and ask them how replaced parts are supposed to be dealt with.

https://www.oag.ok.gov/oagweb.nsf/Consumer!OpenPage

As far as the leak, txn has laid out the basic process. I'll add that if you don't get satisfaction from the service rep, escalate the issue to the service manager, then the general manager, then the regional manager, etc. Once you start talking with someone at the management level, you might want to mention that you've contacted the Consumer Protection department but haven't filed a complaint...yet.

CB900F2 · Jul 26, 2014

I have/had a very light RMS leak, and was considering doing the seal change myself as the dealer/mechanic wanted around $1200 to $1400 to replace the seal

So I gave AT-205 a shot.. And its been in my in my crankcase for about 1 month now since the last oil change, and just about a week ago, I cleaned the area on the bottom of the bell housing/motor where the oil would drip slowly out, and it appears to have stopped..

Keeping my fingers crossed!.

Amazon.com: ATP AT-205 Re-Seal Stops Leaks, 8 Ounce Bottle: Automotive

otto888man · Jul 26, 2014

Are you using the right viscosity of engine oil? I have seen a few RMS leak because the owner put in 5w20 oil instead the recommended 5w30 on a Honda engine?

DrD · Jul 26, 2014

5W20 is the correct oil.
The pain with the rear main seal leak (at least for our van) was that it dripped right onto the exhaust and smoked a lot - since it's the wife and kids daily driver, that was not a workable situation - I threw in the towel and had the thing replaced - sucks paying $800 for a $15 part, but the leak was fixed.

drslums · Jul 29, 2014

I took my van back today morning. Here is the update.

Long story short: I paid $1000+ (total included the $400+ that I paid for the oil pan so almost $600 extra). There is no leaking yet for now. The RMS has been fixed (according to the them - the Fowler Honda Norman Oklahoma)

Longer version (I still cut off a lot of the conversation. Only the most important things here). I'm not native English speaker so trying to make it clear as much as I can.
So as you know they cannot provide the old oil pan back when I requested that and the oil were still leaking like crazy. I could see a lot of oil drop after driving the car and park it. I gave them a call then at that time they said "That should be a rear main seal (RMS) so can you drop it back here?". I bring the van back to them and told them that I doubt that my oil pan were broken because I went under the car and check there is a leak in between the transmission and the engine. I also took off the black cover to see the oil leak. I didnt see any problem with the oil pan and the symptom is my car will not leak if I park the van for days but I will leak as soon as I drove the van. I'm an engineer too (my undergrad were chemical engineering). I know what's going on with my van. I request my old oil pan back (again). They said that they through it away so they cannot give me back.
At this time I told them that I want to talk with the manager and they said the manager is not here. I told them "According to the law, I have the right to see my old part that you guys taken out because I request that immediately when you said the van is ready". If you dont give it to me I will file a complain to the state consumer protection or event sue you guys about customer rip off. Then he changed the attitude lower his voice and ask me: "OK, So what do you want?" "I want the RMS fixed and apply my $400+ payment to the cost of the RMS. I willing to pay extra but I still want to know how much is that before you guy start fixing it" I said. He said: Yes that what we want to do, we want the problem fix and make you happy. I will have the van checked and tell you the price latter.
After about 3 hour they call me and said the RMS fix will be $1700+ and with tax it about $1800+ we will take out the $400+ that you paid so you will pay ~ $1200+ extra. I were so angry because they just bump up the price then I told them that dont rip me off. I ask the about why it so high then he said about that the computer from Honda said that bla bla. I told them It takes 10 hour to get the job done and the rate is about $80/hour so it will be less than $1000 with part. The part only cost about $30. He first asked me where the 10 hours from then I told them I have a book that state all job about the car year, model and how long does it take to get the job done. Remember, I'm an engineer too? Then he told me that their rate is 95$/hour not 80. I said OK $95 then everything is till less than $1000. At this time he said OK we will do it for $1200+ so you will pay $700+ extra.
I still very angry so I told them: No. I want my van back, took off your new oil pan, I want my old oil pan back and $400+.
They said: But we through your old oil pan. We cannot give it to you.
I said: If you cannot give it back to me, I will sue you guys about customer rip off. I forget to tell you that I have pictures of everything underneath the van (Actually I dont) and yes the oil pan weren't broken in my pictures. Dont event think about taking any oil pan out there because it will not match the pattern of my pictures. I will show it to you but only at the course.
They said: OK. 1000 is fine. We will fix it for you.

After 3 days I got my van back. So far no oil leak yet.
My lesson:
1. If you can fix it. Try to fix it cause it not only save you money but save you a lot of headache.
2. If you cannot fix it. Take picture of everything just in case.
Thank you for all of your comments and suggestion.

DerbyDad03 · Jul 29, 2014

Good for you! That's the way to stand up to the dishonest guys, even if you had to fib, just a little.

surgeon · Jul 30, 2014

Glad it is fixed now. I found the black cover. I have to take a peek in it and see as well.

surgeon · Jul 31, 2014

I opened the inspection cover today. It was dry there. Have pics. I still see oil at the base of the cover (edges). The oil from pan side going over towards the trans border. Wonder if it is the pan gasket or somewhere above.

Will post the pics.

0dyfamily · Oct 13, 2014

surgeon, just to add to this: I had the same issues as your 2001 with my 2003 Ody. Occasional drip or drips onto the driveway, but the area inside the cover appeared dry, but it was leaking oil at the edges of that same black inspection cover (???!!). CB900F2 suggested AT-205 on another thread. After perusing the web, and seeing a number of positive results, I decided to try this AT-205 seal repair:

AT-205 on Amazon[/color

I bought 3 bottles from Amazon using a friend's Prime account. Actually, got a couple other items that pushed me over $35, so it would've been free shipping anyways. I put in an entire 8-oz. bottle (just one) into my Odyssey's oil filler around the middle of September.

That leak is just about gone; I may have "caught it in time".

Time will tell.

OF

Rear main seal leaking.

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