Anyone had their water pump fail ?

jkp · Apr 29, 2007

Did it sieze, or fail catastrophically such that there was collateral engine damage due to the timing belt displacement ? Or did it just leak coolant, maybe cause an overheat ? I am trying to assess the risk of leaving my 125K water pump in place, or pre-emptively replacing it.
BTW...timing belt was replaced@ 105 K 99 Ody

egads · Apr 29, 2007

And the water pump was not replaced at 105 with the timing belt because?

rberman999 · Apr 29, 2007

I'll not give you a hard time about you not changing your water pump when you did the timming belt. Instead I will try to give you some insight as to what to watch out for with your water pump. As a general rule water pumps do not go from "working" fine to total failure without some sort of warning. So you should watch out for loss of coolant that can not be explained. Your water pump is located where it can not be seen and hence you can not inspect it for leakage and bearing play. You should keep your coolant up to a level that is easy to see so you know if coolant is leaking. Any loss of coolant needs to be accounted for. So if you have a leaking fitting then fix it, get your cooling system to leak free (fix any know leak). In general water pumps typically are replaced for one of two reasons. Either the seal goes bad and the water pump starts leaking or the bearing goes bad. With either of these you can usually intervine before total failure. The bearing is lubracated via your coolant so it is important to keep fresh clean coolant in you cooling system. Your biggest danger would be if the bearing goes bad, but again as a general rule they dont go from functional to bad overnight. If the bearing does go bad then you would get some "play" in the bearing and this will also often result in seal damage and coolent loss (there might also be a "new" whine or squeel that changed pitch with engine RPM). Therefore you would need to again keep a close eye on your coolant level and pay attention to any sounds and changes in sound comming from your engine. So while many in the forum would give you a hard time for not changing the water pump (yes I changed mine when I did the timming belt and the tensioner) when doing the timming belt, one could apply the same reasoning and automatically change the timming belt tensioner as well but that is not typically called for. Should you get too bad a feeling about not having changed the water pump then my free advice to you would be while you are in there changing the water pump change the timming belt again, as they say in the forum, cheap insurance. In what I have written, all that I'm saying is these are the typical reasons for a water pump change given wear as the major issue. Lots of luck, Russ.

kalaskas · Apr 30, 2007

Well, I had timing belt and water pump replaced at 115K this past August 06, no big deal.

January 07 the water pumps starts leaking from the weep hole on water pump, okay take back to garage to fix. Replaced water pump but some how they screw up the power steering. Did not bleed system properly, they say.

A couple weeks ago water pumps starts leaking again now I hear noises (bearing) I guess from water pump. Not going back to the that garage to fix for third try. Having tranny issues as well, 3rd gear pressure switch failing/failed. In process of getting tranny and water pump resolved.

So Honda recommends swapping out water pump since they are there when TMB replace, after 2 water pumps, not sure to mess with something that wasn't messing up.

cnn · Apr 30, 2007

Some thoughts..............

........... The bearing is lubracated via your coolant so it is important to keep fresh clean coolant in you cooling system. Your biggest danger would be if the bearing goes bad, but again as a general rule they dont go from functional to bad overnight. If the bearing does go bad then you would get some "play" in the bearing and this will also often result in seal damage and coolent loss (there might also be a "new" whine or squeel that changed pitch with engine RPM). ............ [/B]

1. WP, as a rule, lasts anywhere between 40K and 160k miles, depending on the car.

2. However, for the sake of safety and engine porotection, most mechanics replace the water pump at around 100K or so, again depending on car.

3. The WP bearing is lubricated by grease from factory, protected by the inner seal. So the antifreeze never lubricates the bearing. However, when the inner seal goes bad, antifrezze enter the bearing area, damaging it. At that time, one should see anti-freeze seeping through the drain hole.

Do a search on Google images to learn about WP anatomy

jondotcom · Apr 30, 2007

Next time use dealer parts.

The oem one is probably good for 200k miles, but its advisable to change it with an OEM one if you are in there anyway.

Water pumps generally start leaking well in advance of a full bearing failure, hence the weep hole.

rberman999 · May 1, 2007

CNN,

I did a search of the internet and found that what I had stated was correct, the water pump bearing is lubricated from the coolant, no not exclusively but it does in fact receive lubricant from the cooling system. Yes the bearings are shielded but they are not "tight" from coolant penitration. As far as a water pump lasting from 40 to 160 K miles, again, not sure where this comes from, no expected MTBF that I have ever seen in print relating to a water pump. You know sometimes I get the feeling that many on this forum are not replying to help out but to prove who is right, or another way of looking at it, to prove who is wrong. If you look at my posts I always try to provide useful information, and stay away from knocking others. For me it is about trying to help others, not prove I know more than anyone else. Well, keep the ADVICE coming. Russ

jkp · May 1, 2007

All good info,.. thanks to all contributors and readers.....But I guess what I am really after, is some opinion on the likelihood of sudden catastrophic WP failure mode causing the timing belt to break/skip/or strip, and thus ruining/severely damaging the engine. I was warned about this by a mechanic, and I believe it is theoretically possible, but not probable.....but hey...I'm not a professional...just trying to understand the nature of the beast a little bit better.

rberman999 · May 1, 2007

jkp,

If you do a search on the internet there is good information on water pump failure. Most of what has been said holds. As far as your water pump seizing up there is as much danger of that happening as the idler pully or the adjusting pully seizing up. If that happens your are (excuse the expression) screwed. The issue is where a belt travels over a bearing supported surface when the surface stops moving, then the movement of the belt over the non-moving surface builds up heat and is quickly destroyed. But still even with this type of danger a bearing does not just seize up with out some warning (as a general rule). So if a water pump, idler pully or adjusting pully were to seize up watch out. Another possibility, would happen with any of the three bearing devices mentioned having excessive bearing play/wear, then there could be un-even belt tracking from the excessive bearing wear which might make the timming belt jump a tooth or run off track into a timming belt cover or the engine, again resulting in fairly quick destruction of the belt. The Honda service manual does not recomend that the water pump be replaced with the timing belt and you will not see the water pump replacement in your owners manual (under timing belt replacement, at least it is not in my 2000 Odyssey manual). It just makes good sense to do it with the timing belt as 98% of the work is done to change the pump when doing a timing belt, so in general you are mostly paying for the part. Again, I hope this is of some help. Russ

BenjiBoy168 · May 1, 2007

What I would do in your case is to leave the WP in there for now but change the timing belt early at 160K or so (whatever the interval is for the timing belt under severe schedule). If anything seizes that causes your timing belt to go, with this interference engine you are looking into the thousands to repair it.

jkp · May 1, 2007

BenjiBoy
Good call !...I think I will roll the dice for now betting that I will detect a problem before it goes catastrophic....ie.. squealing or coolant leakage,....but I will change the next belt out early. My Ody is a good one for the most part....Engine runs like a top, with mileage about as advertised by the EPA. While it was under warranty, I had all the service done at the dealership...now that it has passed the point where Honda will warrant anything, I am mostly maintaining it myself.

Rbermann...I appreciate your thoughtful analysis on my question. I am an aircraft mishap analyst by trade, so I like to know things in excruciating detail sometimes. As they say, the "devil is in the details" It is very helpful for DIY's as well as professionals to have a deep understanding of how things work, and how they fail.

S/F
JKP

jondotcom · May 1, 2007

Ok, so was the replaced water pump that subsequently failed a dealer OEM part, or aftermarket?

I've never heard of OEM parts failing in this sort of application. In general, older cars are more prone to premature failure because of the room for error in belt tightening, but on the Odyssey it is tensioned by a auto-tensioner.

BenjiBoy168 · May 1, 2007

jondotcom said:
Ok, so was the replaced water pump that subsequently failed a dealer OEM part, or aftermarket?

I've never heard of OEM parts failing in this sort of application. In general, older cars are more prone to premature failure because of the room for error in belt tightening, but on the Odyssey it is tensioned by a auto-tensioner.

Things that are "auto" fail too. Case in point, Odyssey AUTOmatic transmission

jondotcom · May 2, 2007

jondotcom said:
Ok, so was the replaced water pump that subsequently failed a dealer OEM part, or aftermarket?

Common, fess up

jkp · Nov 22, 2008

Old thread which was mine to begin with, but I am now revisiting because my Ody is almost up to 150K miles.

To answer the last question: I never replaced the water pump at all....question of OEM vs aftermarket part does not apply.

I am getting ready to go at the timing belt again (second time is always a snap compared to first) and this time, I will replace the water pump and tensioner at the same time, just for insurance.

JKP

0dyfamily · Nov 22, 2008

Re: Some thoughts..............

cnn said:
1. WP, as a rule, lasts anywhere between 40K and 160k miles, depending on the car.

2. However, for the sake of safety and engine porotection, most mechanics replace the water pump at around 100K or so, again depending on car.

3. The WP bearing is lubricated by grease from factory, protected by the inner seal. So the antifreeze never lubricates the bearing. However, when the inner seal goes bad, antifrezze enter the bearing area, damaging it. At that time, one should see anti-freeze seeping through the drain hole.

Do a search on Google images to learn about WP anatomy

Just want to clear up some misconceptions. cnn is correct. The bearings do not in any way make contact with the coolant.

Having had a few water pumps apart (domestic, euro and asian), the common failure point is usually the gland. This is the seal that prevents coolant from getting past the water pump impeller shaft. Once this happens, coolant will leak out, but be prevented from making contact with the bearings by weep holes designed into the pump housing to allow the coolant to exit.

The gland is made of material which maintains its lubricity in the presence of the coolant (and its additives) specified for that vehicle.

An excessive leak under pressure past the gland will allow coolant to make contact with the bearings, thus destroying them.

I have only seen one instance of the bearings failing before the gland on a car with a serpentine belt system.

It's cheap insurance to replace the water pump during the TB change. Bearings lasting for 210,000 miles? I think it's possible. I just don't know about that gland seal.

I haven't changed an Ody TB yet, but last Honda TB and water pump change I accomplished, that used water pump appeared to be very tight with no bearing runout.

OF

rkpatt · Jun 2, 2009

Best brands of aftermarket water pumps ? Where to buy ?

chiody · Jun 2, 2009

rkpatt said:
Best brands of aftermarket water pumps ? Where to buy ?

Some parts make sense to buy aftermarket and save some moola, however with such a infrequently changed part with a purported very long lifespan, I tend to buy OEM.... Online pricing is lower generally too?

Dougatoms · Oct 31, 2009

My 2001 Odyssey has 197k. The water pump started weeping a few months back (~10k miles). The first TB was replaced at 105k and the WP free play was check only (no problems found). Since I do my own maintenance, labor is free and I wouldn't mind having to go back in if the WP failed between timing belt replacement. I have a new WP and TB (all OEM parts) ready for installation. Just waiting for an open time slot in my schedule to do the job. I agree with others that the WP doesn't fail all of a sudden. I've been maintaining my personal vehicles for 35 years now and WP's tend to wear out slowly provided you know when the seal failure first occurs . Watch the coolant level as it is usually your first sign that you have a leak and the source of the problem needs to be found. I almost always use OEM parts for my repairs. I'm not rich enough to use cheaper after market parts that are usually inferior. Just MHO based on years of bad experiences. Hope this adds to the data for those calculating a WP's MTBF (mean time between failure).

Dougatoms · Apr 3, 2012

Update to my last reply:
My van now has 247k miles and the original water pump is still operating fine. I was incorrect in stating that my water pump was leaking at the 197k mile point. My coolant leak was actually at the block heater (120vac resistive coolant heater, honda accessory) connection and that accounted for my coolant loss. When I replaced the TB at ~200k miles, the water pump bearing was perfect (no measurable free play). I also measured the drag (rotational torque) and it was similar to the new OEM water pump sitting on my spare parts shelf. Therefore, I left it alone. I'll update when it starts to leak or makes a noise.

Anyone had their water pump fail ?

jkp

egads

rberman999

kalaskas

cnn

jondotcom

rberman999

jkp

rberman999

BenjiBoy168

jkp

jondotcom

BenjiBoy168

jondotcom

jkp

0dyfamily

rkpatt

chiody

Dougatoms

Dougatoms

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