Just want to share my story. Last Thursday, I got the blinking CEL after dropping off the kids off at the sitters. Quickly pulled into the local auto parts store to read the code, misfire on cylinder 1. I had it towed to the dealership I bought it from to have it diagnosed. While waiting, I heard the mechanic page the service advisor. After 20 mins, the mechanic came to talk with me. Said he knows sometimes the service advisor gets busy and can leave me waiting. He said I had a fouled spark plug and needed new rings. I asked how much is that going to cost, and he said it was not cheap. He said, "push for warranty." I said I just passed the 60K warranty. He said, "I don't make the final call, but just push for warranty." I thanked him and he left. I talked with a friend who is a mechanic via chat while waiting and he showed me a post of this forum about replacing rings and VCM. When the service advisor came to talk with me, he said that I needed new rings. While in the waiting room, he said they had done enough of these he could save me some money. I told him this is not a 60K mile problem. I said there must be some of a grace period on the powertrain warranty. He said, "Lets go talk in my service manager's office." He told his service manager that I had the infamous fouled spark plug issue. I told service manager, I should not have to pay for the full repair. He said recently they have been seeing more 2016 come in with the same problem. He told me about some lady with a 2014 that was on the hook for a 3500 bill for new rings at 140K miles. I told them if I was at 140K I might be able to justify this problem, but not at 63K. Service advisor said you must spend a lot of time in ECO mode. I told them have only done service via a Honda dealer and this should not be happening at this mileage. He said that doing service only with Honda would go a long way with Honda NA and he would try to get me cover at 100% of the cost of new rings. They gave me a loaner and sent me on my way. Next day, they called me and said Honda NA agree to participate in repairing my van. They would offer a one time goodwill assistance. I would have to pay a little less than $600. At this point I needed my van, the little 2020 CRV loaner was way too small. I had to make three full car seats (three kids 3 and under) work in the CRV and it was a stretch (I had to force the doors closed). I did request them to replace spark plugs in 5 and 6 as well. I got the van back on Wednesday. They did not charge me extra for the extra spark plugs on 5 and 6. It ended up being 399 for parts and 195 charge for deductible. At least that's how they wrote the repair order. I had already ordered a VCM Tuner II. Delivery date is tomorrow. I will install it immediately. Just want to let you know what happen with my 2016. Wish I would of known about this forum when I bought the van. I would of installed a VCM muzzler from the get go. Needless to say, I am going to keep the receipt and claw back what I paid when the next class action goes through.
odyclub812
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This forum should start a group / survey on those interested in participating in a class action suit.
it's not going to happen magically, it will need organization and numbers.
Some lawyers will take CA cases on contingency, when they feel there is a good chance of winning.
Edit: Needs an owner who went through this experience to initiate, I own a 2011 which was covered under the TSB.
Otherwise I would do it.
it's not going to happen magically, it will need organization and numbers.
Some lawyers will take CA cases on contingency, when they feel there is a good chance of winning.
Edit: Needs an owner who went through this experience to initiate, I own a 2011 which was covered under the TSB.
Otherwise I would do it.
Only way to solve this problem. Do not buy Honda products. Honda knows VCM is a problem. Rather than take
ownership, admit the problem, Honda has discovered repairing the VCM caused engine failure is a "money" making
venture.
Class action lawsuits. Good luck. Usually what happens, Honda comes to an agreement. To "fix", the problem,
if it can be proven, and Honda just "extends" the warranty, just "long" enough. So when you have the failure the
extended warranty has expired.
The Class action lawsuit, should result in a "RECALL", which means, Honda acknowledges the defect, will fix for
free, and there is no expiration date! Of course this is super expensive, and Honda's lawyer's and class action
lawyers never agree to this. (to much work for the class action lawyers)..ha
Honda, did the same procedure, for 2001 transmissions. No recall. Just extended the transmission warranty.
When the 3rd transmission failed, it was a couple of months past Honda's extended warranty....so I paid.
Learned my lesson.....no more Honda's.
Good luck all.....
ownership, admit the problem, Honda has discovered repairing the VCM caused engine failure is a "money" making
venture.
Class action lawsuits. Good luck. Usually what happens, Honda comes to an agreement. To "fix", the problem,
if it can be proven, and Honda just "extends" the warranty, just "long" enough. So when you have the failure the
extended warranty has expired.
The Class action lawsuit, should result in a "RECALL", which means, Honda acknowledges the defect, will fix for
free, and there is no expiration date! Of course this is super expensive, and Honda's lawyer's and class action
lawyers never agree to this. (to much work for the class action lawyers)..ha
Honda, did the same procedure, for 2001 transmissions. No recall. Just extended the transmission warranty.
When the 3rd transmission failed, it was a couple of months past Honda's extended warranty....so I paid.
Learned my lesson.....no more Honda's.
Good luck all.....
It would be interesting to see what percentage of vans have had this issue - Honda has sold more than a couple Odysseys with VCM - for the 11-17 model years, sales volume has been 100-127k vehicles per year (see Honda Odyssey US car sales figures). You'd think if a sizeable fraction of them - say 5-10% - had the issue, a class action suit would have already happened... (law firms that handle class action suits are probably pretty good at sniffing out where there is money to be made)
2016 with 75,000 miles and 1,000 miles from home and my #2 ring went also. Total cost $3.400.00. This happened May 17, 2021. The dealer in Panama City did cut the original price by $400.00 and he gave me a loaner. If I could get back to Pittsburgh, I would have traded it in on a different van. So much for Honda's reputation.
We bought a 2016 Odyssey Elite in July 2021. In October we had an issue with engine misfire on cylinder 1 & took it into the shop that specializes in repairing Honda vehicles. They replaced all sparkplugs and the coil on that cylinder and went on our way. Fast forward to the last week of October. We had the same issue with Cylinder 3. When we took it in this time, we told them to replace the remaining 5 coils. Again, we went on our way thinking we were good to go for a while.
Well, today 11/2/21 we had a rough running engine, which started in in town traffic. Took it into the same shop to get it diagnosec--misfire in Cylinder 1! This is on 1 month old sparkplugs which are fouled with oil. Both Cylinder 1 & 3 are fouled with oil 1 being the worst. Oil checked at shop, none on dipstick....no warning lights on dash that there was low oil,, nothing to warm us until the van started misfiring!! Oil was checked by us a short time ago here at home & level was fine.
Today, we find out from our shop that this very same issue was VERY PREVALENT on Odysseys from 2008-2012 with the V6 3.5 L Engine with VCM. Our shop called the local Honda Dealer here and was told there was no Service Bulletin regarding these issues put out for this year of van. I was instructed by our shop to approach the local dealer to have the van looked at which is in process as of today (11/2/21). Estimate to have the rings replaced will be over $3,000! One of the shop underwriters told us that their dealership has replaced several vehicles rings due to the same issue we are having! I then called Honda America Customer Care and went over what is currently going on. There are evidently no recalls for this issue & all I got out of my call to them is a case number and the representatives name. I'm thinking of writing a letter to Honda outlining why I called, detailing the issues and sending it certified mail with signer receipt requested.
Something needs to happen here as this is ridiculous for Honda not to own up to this issue. Had I known what this VCM meant before today we would've had a muzzler put on this engine to shut the VCM off OR, we'd never have bought the van in the first place. Needless to say. I will probably never buy another Honda vehicle again. Even used, this van was expensive to purchase and with all these issues that we are now having.....wish we'd bought another brand of vehicle.
Cmon Honda, own up to the issues here and make this right by your customers!!
Well, today 11/2/21 we had a rough running engine, which started in in town traffic. Took it into the same shop to get it diagnosec--misfire in Cylinder 1! This is on 1 month old sparkplugs which are fouled with oil. Both Cylinder 1 & 3 are fouled with oil 1 being the worst. Oil checked at shop, none on dipstick....no warning lights on dash that there was low oil,, nothing to warm us until the van started misfiring!! Oil was checked by us a short time ago here at home & level was fine.
Today, we find out from our shop that this very same issue was VERY PREVALENT on Odysseys from 2008-2012 with the V6 3.5 L Engine with VCM. Our shop called the local Honda Dealer here and was told there was no Service Bulletin regarding these issues put out for this year of van. I was instructed by our shop to approach the local dealer to have the van looked at which is in process as of today (11/2/21). Estimate to have the rings replaced will be over $3,000! One of the shop underwriters told us that their dealership has replaced several vehicles rings due to the same issue we are having! I then called Honda America Customer Care and went over what is currently going on. There are evidently no recalls for this issue & all I got out of my call to them is a case number and the representatives name. I'm thinking of writing a letter to Honda outlining why I called, detailing the issues and sending it certified mail with signer receipt requested.
Something needs to happen here as this is ridiculous for Honda not to own up to this issue. Had I known what this VCM meant before today we would've had a muzzler put on this engine to shut the VCM off OR, we'd never have bought the van in the first place. Needless to say. I will probably never buy another Honda vehicle again. Even used, this van was expensive to purchase and with all these issues that we are now having.....wish we'd bought another brand of vehicle.
Cmon Honda, own up to the issues here and make this right by your customers!!
Replace the plug, order a VCM muzzler ASAP, install (or have your indy shop install if you're not comfortable doing so), and (probably) never worry about the piston ring issue again.
Whether or not you do the treatment, you absolutely should purchase and install the muzzling device. There are many threads explaining it, but essentially the piston ring issue is caused because the Variable Cylinder Management (VCM) is active (i.e., green ECO light on your display).
Long story short, VCM turns off some of your cylinders while cruising and the engine isn't under heavy load, ostensibly to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy. There was a design flaw which results in oil leaking past the piston rings in the idle cylinders, fouling the spark plugs and causing the misfire condition.
Any treatment to clean the cylinders/fuel injectors or even the piston ring replacement job while keeping the VCM function active will always have the likelihood of the misfire condition returning. The only proven way (so far) to permanently eliminate the risk is to disable the VCM by installing a muzzling device. At about $130, it is also MUCH cheaper than constantly replacing plugs or, certainly, doing the piston ring job.
Please get the muzzling device and enjoy your vehicle for years and tens of thousands of miles to come.
Long story short, VCM turns off some of your cylinders while cruising and the engine isn't under heavy load, ostensibly to reduce emissions and improve fuel economy. There was a design flaw which results in oil leaking past the piston rings in the idle cylinders, fouling the spark plugs and causing the misfire condition.
Any treatment to clean the cylinders/fuel injectors or even the piston ring replacement job while keeping the VCM function active will always have the likelihood of the misfire condition returning. The only proven way (so far) to permanently eliminate the risk is to disable the VCM by installing a muzzling device. At about $130, it is also MUCH cheaper than constantly replacing plugs or, certainly, doing the piston ring job.
Please get the muzzling device and enjoy your vehicle for years and tens of thousands of miles to come.
It really is sad that Honda will not own up to this mistake. However, they are not alone.....Audi, Hyundai, Toyota, Subaru, Dodge have all had their share of big engine design issues. They never issued a recall only a time limited campaign for repair. Keeping financial damages and responsibility to a minimum. Go corporations........
Honda was tops in quality control a while ago, this no longer seems the case. 1.5t gas dilution issues. V6 vcm issues, 9 speed German trans issues.....on and on.
Honda was tops in quality control a while ago, this no longer seems the case. 1.5t gas dilution issues. V6 vcm issues, 9 speed German trans issues.....on and on.
I just had the same problem with my 2016 Odyssey. I bought it brand new and I only have 40,000 miles. Dealer tells me it’s the piston rings. They submitted it to Honda to see if they will cover a portion. They are looking to charge me $3,400 for the repair. My car only has 40,000 miles.
2016 Honda Odyssey here with 57k miles and have the same issue with piston ring failure. This should be covered, correct?
Nope. No coverage after the 2013 model year. Any assistance you may get from Honda is subject to their own generosity in the moment, and lately it hasn't been pretty.
I guess some people need to follow a certain process and follow a strangers advice at the dealership with something to gain, over listening to a bunch of strangers on a forum who had the same experience but have nothing to gain from them.
This is something else to know about this: the fuel & emissions savings are very small on an individual basis. However, for Honda's Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) rating it makes a big difference for them. I lost less than a single MPG muzzling my 2015. Muzzling also makes the van far more pleasurable to drive.
I have piston ring issue on 2016 Honda Odysee as well (132k miles and just out of warranty). I’m going to see if Honda Care will grant an exception and cover the cost. It looks like a lot of people having same issue as me. LET OUR VOICES BE HEARD HONDA!!!
Thank you for pointing me to the VCM megathread. I met with service manager already on Friday and they will try and do a ‘good will’ fix. I’m not sure exactly what that means or how much I will have to pay. I’m. a bit confused about installing the muzzler on the VCM, replacing the bad oily spark plugs and then do the piston rings ‘fix themselves’? In short, if I choose to go that route I can ignore the supposed ‘piston ring issue’ it’s $3000+ work effort and just say install a VCM muzzler? Do you think an authorized Honda dealership would even offer that fix as an option or would I have to go somewhere else? I’ll keep this forum updated in what happens with my ‘good will fix appeal’ tomorrow and what route I end up taking.
UPDATE:
I received a ‘favorable’ decision on my 2016 Odysee piston ring issue. I still have to pay $1042 to replace said piston rings. After talking to the service manager he also recommended the after market ‘VCM muzzler’ fix, but Honda won’t do it. The new piston rings come with 1 year 12k mile warranty so I’m covered for a little while , but w/out a guaranteed ‘long term’ permanent fix the problem could come back again. Long-story short if I want this issue permanently fixed I’m looking at 1k ‘goodwill’ fix plus after market VCM muzzler cost. I guess I should be grateful I’m not having to pay 3k+ , but other owners should be aware of this design flaw.
I received a ‘favorable’ decision on my 2016 Odysee piston ring issue. I still have to pay $1042 to replace said piston rings. After talking to the service manager he also recommended the after market ‘VCM muzzler’ fix, but Honda won’t do it. The new piston rings come with 1 year 12k mile warranty so I’m covered for a little while , but w/out a guaranteed ‘long term’ permanent fix the problem could come back again. Long-story short if I want this issue permanently fixed I’m looking at 1k ‘goodwill’ fix plus after market VCM muzzler cost. I guess I should be grateful I’m not having to pay 3k+ , but other owners should be aware of this design flaw.
@Philliptackett why post for a solution / assistance when all you did was take the advice from the dealer, ignore the advice given here and separate yourself from 1000+ dollars.
shaking my head...
shaking my head...
You gotta admit that there have been many snake oil devices to connect to cars over the years. No wonder some are skeptical. Also, there are folks who think VCM saves more fuel than it does. Over all the vehicles Honda sells with V6 engines it might add up, but for each car, not so much. Running slightly higher tire pressures will get you as much MPG savings as VCM. I barely noticed any MPG difference with muzzling. But combined with the trans software update it makes for a much more pleasant during experience. Worth it just for that.
Well he can enjoy the new piston rings for a while until they get cooked again, and then he'll be back asking as to why... Somehow "Honda knows best" and yet at 60k you're having to have your piston rings re-done, so do they really?! You know how many normal engines I've ever had to have piston rings replaced in; zero. Ever. Now hot-rodding that's a different discussion but...
We can only do what we can do. As I've said here before, of all the Odyssey owners in my neighborhood, many family friends, exactly "zero" have installed a Muzzle. They just don't believe this can be true. Well, back to modifying my Tin Foil Hat! 👾👾
👾👾
We can only do what we can do. As I've said here before, of all the Odyssey owners in my neighborhood, many family friends, exactly "zero" have installed a Muzzle. They just don't believe this can be true. Well, back to modifying my Tin Foil Hat! 👾👾
👾👾Yes Andrew. Perhaps it comes down to the difference between a mechanically-oriented person vs one who is not (artists, etc) that is the difference. Speaking generally of course. But its particularly sad when the non-mechanical will not take advise and loses a significant pile of $.
-DanaH
-DanaH
New member here. 2016 Odyssey w/ 54k miles
We bought a 2016 Odyssey pre-owned from a Honda dealer in June 2019. At the time my wife insisted we purchase the "Certification". My understand is the certification should provide us 7 years / 100,000-mile coverage. Since the car was originally purchased in May 2016, I believe I have coverage until May 2023...does this sound correct? I don't have experience with this but that's how I read the documentation. I told my service advisor the car was Certified but he shrugged it off as an uncovered item...perhaps he thought I purchased the car new in 2016 in which case he would be correct. This is for a follow-up discussion on Monday.
The reason I'm hear is because my 2016 is having this same issue on cylinder 1. I've been told the rings need to be replaced, but the parts weren't available, so they replaced the plug as a temporary measure and sent me on my way to see how long until it reoccurred. Not 30 miles later the engine was misfiring again (I am assuming the same cylinder). After sitting idle for 20 minutes it was no longer misfiring, so I was able to baby it home.
We previously had a 2005 Odyssey and it had 140k before a dumb-a neighbor plowed into it while looking at his phone. We had a good experience with it, so we didn't hesitate to purchase the 2016. When all of this engine trouble started, I did some online research and learned of this defect. I have already ordered a S-VCM for the Odyssey and our Accord (2014 w/ 32k miles), which should be delivered on Wednesday.
Some on the forum imply that the oil fouling is strictly due to the VCM, install a muzzler and forget about it. But when my Cylinder 1 started misfiring again after 30 miles it makes me think there is a lot of oil leaking into the cylinder. Doesn't this imply a ring problem? Since I believe I am covered by the Certified pre-owned warranty, I think what I should do is have Honda re-ring any fouled cylinders, then I will install the S-VCM.
Thoughts??
We bought a 2016 Odyssey pre-owned from a Honda dealer in June 2019. At the time my wife insisted we purchase the "Certification". My understand is the certification should provide us 7 years / 100,000-mile coverage. Since the car was originally purchased in May 2016, I believe I have coverage until May 2023...does this sound correct? I don't have experience with this but that's how I read the documentation. I told my service advisor the car was Certified but he shrugged it off as an uncovered item...perhaps he thought I purchased the car new in 2016 in which case he would be correct. This is for a follow-up discussion on Monday.
The reason I'm hear is because my 2016 is having this same issue on cylinder 1. I've been told the rings need to be replaced, but the parts weren't available, so they replaced the plug as a temporary measure and sent me on my way to see how long until it reoccurred. Not 30 miles later the engine was misfiring again (I am assuming the same cylinder). After sitting idle for 20 minutes it was no longer misfiring, so I was able to baby it home.
We previously had a 2005 Odyssey and it had 140k before a dumb-a neighbor plowed into it while looking at his phone. We had a good experience with it, so we didn't hesitate to purchase the 2016. When all of this engine trouble started, I did some online research and learned of this defect. I have already ordered a S-VCM for the Odyssey and our Accord (2014 w/ 32k miles), which should be delivered on Wednesday.
Some on the forum imply that the oil fouling is strictly due to the VCM, install a muzzler and forget about it. But when my Cylinder 1 started misfiring again after 30 miles it makes me think there is a lot of oil leaking into the cylinder. Doesn't this imply a ring problem? Since I believe I am covered by the Certified pre-owned warranty, I think what I should do is have Honda re-ring any fouled cylinders, then I will install the S-VCM.
Thoughts??
Sadly the Certified Pre-owned thing is mostly good for the extra 12,000 mile bumper to bumper part of it. Perhaps you could get somewhere with an obviously failing covered component. The CPO is just something a dealer can add for a price to any used Honda that meets the criteria. To actually have an extended warranty, you have pay even more for Honda Care. Having a used vehicle that is CPO allows you to buy that within a certain time or mileage period. It would hardly matter, considering they don't even have parts to replace rings right now. We have also had reports of Honda denying claims once the engine is apart, claiming the cylinders are covered in carbon and the warranty doesn't cover that. Therefore, around here we tend to discourage having the piston ring job done at all. (that and having a dealer mechanic tearing apart a factory engine) Sometimes, if the you are close to needing the timing belt service AND you trust your dealer to do the work and cover the cost, it can make sense to go ahead with the ring job.
The oil fouling is strictly due to VCM. The piston rings on the cylinders that shut down allow oil past them. Once muzzled, the rings will loosen and start doing their job again. In specific model years (the ones Honda settled a law suit on and extended the warranty) were said to be "low friction" piston rings. Supposedly, starting in 2014, they stopped using them. However, around here we started hearing about 2014s, once they had some miles on them, also setting plug fouling codes. Back in 2005, only specific models had VCM and a different type at that. There were not the issues we see with the 2009-2017 vans. Honda went back to the 3 or 6 cylinder shut set up again starting in 2018.
You may have a different plug now fouling, it might not be the #1 again. No way to know without having the codes read.
I think how soon this issue shows up depends on how you use the Odyssey. My theory: lots of around town driving, with the VCM kicking in & out constantly, makes this happen faster. Others think that long road trips with the VCM active continuously, are what makes this happen. There is this bit of info: over a specific MPH, VCM does not kick in at all. (80?) I know that I will go 80 or more whenever possible.
Just replacing plugs (at least all three rear ones) adding the Muzzler and driving aggressively for a while will fix this. I'm not sure that just plugs and muzzling and still driving slowly around town will take care of one already setting codes.
The oil fouling is strictly due to VCM. The piston rings on the cylinders that shut down allow oil past them. Once muzzled, the rings will loosen and start doing their job again. In specific model years (the ones Honda settled a law suit on and extended the warranty) were said to be "low friction" piston rings. Supposedly, starting in 2014, they stopped using them. However, around here we started hearing about 2014s, once they had some miles on them, also setting plug fouling codes. Back in 2005, only specific models had VCM and a different type at that. There were not the issues we see with the 2009-2017 vans. Honda went back to the 3 or 6 cylinder shut set up again starting in 2018.
You may have a different plug now fouling, it might not be the #1 again. No way to know without having the codes read.
I think how soon this issue shows up depends on how you use the Odyssey. My theory: lots of around town driving, with the VCM kicking in & out constantly, makes this happen faster. Others think that long road trips with the VCM active continuously, are what makes this happen. There is this bit of info: over a specific MPH, VCM does not kick in at all. (80?) I know that I will go 80 or more whenever possible.
Just replacing plugs (at least all three rear ones) adding the Muzzler and driving aggressively for a while will fix this. I'm not sure that just plugs and muzzling and still driving slowly around town will take care of one already setting codes.
I drove the Odyssey a couple miles to a restaurant tonight and there were no misfires. I don't understand how a cylinder can be misfiring when you shut off the engine, and 30 minutes later it isn't. My S-VCM arrives Wednesday so I think I'll swap cars with my wife until then. My daily commute is 3 miles. Being that we live in the Chicago area and it's February there is little chance the engine will reach VCM temp before I get to work.
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