I would be interested is knowing what kind of software update can keep the fluid cooler without adding an external cooler to the transaxle.

 

Perhaps something related to torque converter lock-up (eg. if it sometimes unlocks for a few seconds instead of downshifting). Or if the problem is with a specific gear, not keeping the transmission in that gear under load for a long time. Although how you would do that without the driver being pissed, I'm not sure. Could also be not keeping the transmission under high load at low engine RPM (low RPMs are probably not good for fluid flow and thus cooling), although this might hurt MPG a little.

Just as likely is that it's wishful thinking at this point. They're hoping to come up with a software fix as it's obviously the least expensive kind of fix to apply. You'll notice that they did not explain which "specific driving conditions" are involved.

 

Interesting... for the purposes of this TSB, Honda is emphasizing its definition of a transmission flush as a 3x drain-and-fill. This is causing me to re-evaluate my position that a 2x drain-and-fill once a year should be sufficient, given the larger-than-expected volume of ATF I was able to extract each time I removed the drain plug.

Obviously I know that more is better and that a triple drain-and-fill is considered SOP for a "complete" fluid exchange (and has been for years). I haven't experienced the slightest hint of transmission trouble with our Ody, and I am highly motivated to keep it that way. Maybe a trans cooler is in my future too, especially if Honda has identified ATF temperature as a critical contributing factor to these problems.

 

I am glad I switched to Amsoil fluid as this TSB doesn't give me much confidence in their fluid when driven hot. "The transmission fluid deteriorates quicker than expected when it is exposed to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions" is all I needed to read about the stock fluid. I wonder how many had to pay out of pocket for new torque converters or trans "flushes" prior to the TSB surfacing. Hope anyone who had previous work done will get reimbursed by Honda.

 

My '12 is in the range. I did add an OEM hitch and trans cooler when new. I've done 1x drain and fill fluid every second or third oil change (5,000 mile intervals). Now at 162,000 miles I guess I've been lucky with flawless service.

 

You've been driving a lot of freeway miles with TCC in lockup. We had one forum member hit 400,000 miles in his 2003 EX in less than five years. Freeway driving without continuous heavy towing is pretty light work for any vehicle, even an Odyssey, and even though the Honda OEM trans cooler is about as tiny as they get, it is still better than nothing.

Interestingly, the only time I read about degraded Honda ATF-Z1 was during the engineering testing of the Acura 3.2 5-speed, but all of that was pinned on the identified low ATF flow state into the third clutch pack. This current Honda bulletin identifies that Honda ATF DW-1 is deteriorating far quicker than expected in the Gen 4 Odysseys under operator usage without an identified problem in the transmission. Is the ATF DW-1 not up to par? I just bought a case of it for our 2012 Honda Civic...I'm hoping that I did not make a mistake.

Then again, that Civic 1.8L I-4 is a very light duty application. I'm just amazed at this latest information about Honda ATF DW-1; was not expecting it. I think when I do the 4x drain/refill on the Civic, an entire 10-ounce bottle of Lubegard Red will go into the mix.

Will continue to use AmSOil ATF in our current pair of Odysseys.

If we get a newer Odyssey, we're going with EOT 4 Life's nod to using the AmSOil Signature Series Synthetic Fuel Efficient ATF, or go with Red Line D6 ATF. Also, when the Civic is due for the next ATF drain/refill, I'll most likely use AmSOil or Red Line.

OF

 

what fluid do you guys recommend?

 

AMSOIL Signature Series Fuel-Efficient Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4b8nVX-SkE#t=14

 

This is interesting and widens the TSB for 2011 and 2012 which had the software update prepared.

I'm wondering if this is the real issue for the VCM/ECO and the VCMuzzler masks the issue.

My 2011 TE has been solid as a rock for the past week after the software update.

I'm still planning to put the Muzzler back on with the blue resistor to see if anything changes but for the past week I've not had any issue.

My highest recommendation is to watch for the software update. Mine had gotten worse each summer and was generally fine in the winter.

 

I bought our Odyssey used at 23,000 miles and I've had weird vibration issues from the front of the car during all sorts of driving. I blamed it on the fact I had 2 bald tires. So when I got them replaced with new tires at 29,000 miles and the vibration still remained, I took the Odyssey to the dealer and they told me when they gave it back to me that they had to install a software update on my transmission computer. They didn't tell me anything more than that and the sales receipt doesn't say anything more than that either, but I'm wondering now if that update wasn't for the reason of this TSB.

 

Oh, wow! This explains what I've been experiencing in my 2014 TE for the last few thousand miles. My car has 24,500 miles on it now and it definitely feeling like the TC is locking and unlocking especially when I'm going uphill on a hot day with a full load of passengers and luggage. It's much less to nil with only myself in the car under the same roads.

As my car does it mostly going uphill, I though it was the car hunting gears as the speed drops while it climbs without me adding more accelerator input. It almost feels like there is a power "surge" and loss from the drivetrain and the power is coming and going away. Once my car reaches level ground or goes downhill, it's no longer felt. And it's smooth again.

So it seems like the ATF is allowing the clutch packs to slip due to heat, which I imagine increases as you climb a hill with a car fully loaded. Guess I better make an appointment with my dealer to have the fluid changed. I bought the Ody hoping to get over 150,000 miles of reliable use. This is not very reassuring.

 

I will just continue to D&F every 15K. I think this keeps the ATF fresh and less temperature breakdown.

Might switch to Valvoline MaxLife ATF (full synth) oil once I run thru all DW-1.

 

That's reasonable. Every other oil change or simply annually do 1 D/F. Also, Valvoline 'Max Life' is excellent ATF whether your car is old or new. Its also the ticket for any vehicle using ATF for power steering, 4WD transfer case or manual transmission.

 

UPDATE:

Hey folks,

As per my reply above, I called and setup an appointment with my dealer who got me in yesterday for TSB 16-060 to be performed due to the known judder issue I had with a full load, going uphill especially in hotter weather. I showed up with the TSB printout in hand and told my SA about my complaints. ( I had to de-VCMuzzle my car before I left home just in case.)

On the way there, I had noted that my car was noticeably juddering while cruising at about 65MPH on the highway while going up a mild incline with me onboard. The outside temps was about 95 degrees F and I can clearly see that my engine RPMs where jumping up and down within a range of about 200 RPMs...bouncing between 1500 and 1700 while my foot was completely steady, just like a manual transmission car's clutch slipping.

The service took about 2 hours. My SA told me that the tech didn't really feel the judder in his test drive but that he went and performed the service anyway using the 3 Drain and Fill method with 11 quarts of DW-1 ATF. I was surprised but happy they didn't give me trouble.

So here's what I've noticed. The judder is GONE! Yes. Gone! I tried to reproduce it driving uphill on freeways while holding the accelerator steady. The engine RPMs now no longer jump. They hold steady. The car no longer slows down by up to 5 MPH while going uphill and the tranny quickly and successfully downshifts to hold the speed, whereas it used to just stay in the same gear and the tranny would slip. Also, I no longer have strange and random rear axle vibrations that I used to think were due to unbalanced tires/wheels. I had all 4 wheels Roadforce Balanced recently and still had vibrations but are now gone. Could the slipping TC result in driveline vibrations? I don't know. Shifts in general appear to be smooth as before at normal local street driving speeds.

So this has got me thinking. My 2014 TE is a hair below 25k miles. It's been serviced by the same dealer for oil changes and inspections. It's my wife's daily driver and she is a conservative driver with our 3 young kids onboard. So how in the world does a lightly driven, low mileage transmission ATF breakdown so easily? Honda was right. It's the fluid. Else, the ATF wouldn't have fixed the issue. So how will Honda fix this with just a software update? Can shift logic really affect the life of the ATF? If that fails, what then? New ATF formulation? Change the ATF Drain and Fill schedule? This is really crazy as my 2004 Acura TL with the 5AT didn't need a Drain and Fill till 80k miles and that car was driven hard.

So those of you who have been proactive about ATF drain and fill with every other oil change have been right all along. And I might consider one of the boutique ATFs now such as Amsoil. I worry that Honda's DW-1 ATF might be a lower friction blend to help with MPGs but might have poor longevity as my case has proven.

 

Just keep the drain and fill going on a regular interval, you will reduce the possibility of transmission related issue. With drain plug so close to the front of the car, at least it is very easy to do the D&F at home, if you are inclined to.

 

Curious to why it only effects certain trim models. You would think the put the exact same transmission in every Odyssey of a particular year.

Just today, I purchased a case of transmission fluid from my dealer for my 60,000 "flush". First was done at 30,000 miles. After this, I am going to the 1x drain and flush at every other oil change at the 5,000 mile intervals.

Just a side note, I asked about the brake fluid as well, as most here probably already know, he said you do NOT need to use Honda brand. He liked Valvoline

 

Curious to why it only effects certain trim models. You would think the put the exact same transmission in every Odyssey of a particular year.

On 2011-2013 models, the LX, EX & EX-L models have the five-speed transmission. The Touring and Touring Elite have the six speed, which became standard beginning with the 2014 models.

 

"BTW, would you know if it is OK to do a simply single Drain and Fill with Amsoil ATF and mixing in with the current Honda DW-1? I imagine it should be OK as many have changed over."
Yes, a single drain and fill is good but I did it twice when I did my Odyssey's fluid. The more of Honda's fluid that is out, the better in my opinion.
This is directly written on Amsoil's site and seems to be everything that DW1 isn't:

Transmissions in commercial vehicles, SUVs, trucks and vans – particularly those used for hauling or towing – are subjected to severe-service operation and increased heat. Elevated temperatures cause fluids to break down, allowing damaging metal-to-metal contact and the formation of sludge and deposits. The problem is worse in modern transmissions with more gears, clutch packs and narrow oil passages that require clean, high-quality fluid to achieve maximum performance and life.AMSOIL Signature Series Synthetic Automatic Transmission Fluid is specifically formulated to withstand the rigors of heavy towing, elevated temperatures and challenging terrain. It remains fluid in sub-zero temperatures and provides reserve protection during heavy use and even abuse.
​

 

Yes, a single drain and fill is good but I did it twice when I did my Odyssey's fluid. The more of Honda's fluid that is out, the better in my opinion.

EOT 4 Life, thank your reply. That was helpful.

And yes, I agree with you that the AT software update is just a band-aid fix. No way they can keep the fluid cooler and keep MPGs without an external ATF cooler. Looks like 15,000k is about as long as I will dare go with the OEM fluid at this point.

 

Years ago, a number of forum members asserted that they would not switch from OEM Honda ATF-Z1 to a proven synthetic like Red Line D4, Valvoline MaxLife Dex/Merc, AmSOil, Mobil 1, etc.

IIRC, the original Honda ATF-Z1 came about when Honda had not yet started producing V6 engines as a mainstream choice in its largest vehicles. I.e., ATF-Z1 was formerly for light duty applications. We still use it in our little 1998 4-cylinger Accord, helped along by Lubegard Red. It works great in that car.

We have come full circle, it seems. A number of people have posted that they would not consider anything except Honda's ATF DW-1 for their Odysseys. ATF DW-1 seems to cover all the bases in the 4-cylinder Hondas, but here we are now with degradation of the OEM Honda ATF in a more severe application (the Odyssey).

Is it thermal problems? Makes me wonder if the OEM Honda ATF cooler is once again way, way, way too small for the application. It seems the Long Tru-Cool LPD 4544 cooler will once again be the answer.

I'm not too concerned about ATF DW-1 being an adequate ATF in light duty applications. I'm a member on 9thgencivic.com, and Honda ATF DW-1 is the "go to ATF" for these guys. We just did a 4x drain/refill in our 2012 Civic EX sedan, and ATF DW-1 is doing fine, along with about 8 ounces of LG Red, too.

It seems that if you're not piling up highway miles in your Odyssey, but are giving the transmission a workout in an urban environment, or even towing, then Red Line D6, Valvoline MaxLife, AmSOil (Sig Series fuel efficient variety) may be good choices.

RinconVTR's Blackstone UOA supports 15,000 miles as a minimum single drain/refill interval for Honda ATF.

OF

 

RinconVTR's Blackstone UOA supports 15,000 miles as a minimum single drain/refill interval for Honda ATF.

OF

Thanks for the informative read! Glad we have some solid, validated data to support 15k ATF changes. And it was at about that point that I started noticing juddering. This doesn't bode well for Honda. Our van is light duty and gently driven on many a highway miles. And yet, the ATF is beginning to deteriorate at such low mileage. Either the 5th Gen Odyssey will need a beefy ATF Cooler or we will see a "DW-2" ATF eventually and/or shorter fluid change schedule, which will piss off owners.

 

I called a local Honda specialty place today to see how much he charges to install a cooler and his fee is 2 hours labor at $89 per hour, but has to get back to me on the cooler pricing itself since they don't stock one. I am pretty confident that the Amsoil fluid can handle the heat without much degradation, and may wait to see what "fix" Honda offers first before putting in a cooler.

 

Update to My Update

Ok, guys. I had posted about my now fixed transmission judder issues yesterday but only was able to test the van with myself onboard. My issues were noted with a full load of passengers and luggage in hot weather while going uphill at freeway speeds.

I just came back from an extended drive with my family and one adult passenger in the 3rd row plus cargo and I'm happy to finally confirm that the van is totally fixed. Judder is eliminated. Shifts from 6th down to 5th for passing is ultra smooth and quick. And I can't sense any hint of rear axel vibration up to 80 MPH.

So those of you who are suffering needlessly from transmission judder should make an appointment to have the TSB performed. At the very least, it saved me about $100 worth of Honda DW-1 ATF and at least an hour's labor doing 3x D&F in my driveway. The van's newfound responsiveness and smoothness, along with VCMuzzler installed, has made my drives with the family so much more pleasurable.

 

Glad the posting of this helped you out, imagine how many others are out there dealing with this right now or who have already been taken to the bank by Honda for transmission "flushes" and paid out of pocket for it, or even worse had an expired warranty and got hit for a new torque converter.

 

I can't agree more! I'd be on the phone to Honda's corporate offices to demand a full refund of repair bills now that they've admitted that this condition is often misdiagnosed as a bad TC. But then again, the average Odyssey owner isn't here on this forum and the dealer sure as heck won't publicize the TSB.

 

I just did a quick search for "torque converter" and came up with a few threads, but this one sticks out as one with some out of pocket rip-offs:
http://www.odyclub.com/forums/54-20...-2011-odyssey/152689-2011-honda-odyssey-unresolved-transmission-problems-4.html

 

It's a strange coincidence, but my neighbor just had his 2012's Odyssey's transmission crap out in yesterday's northeast heat while towing a light weight boat. He has had the fluid changed before and is now at 58,000 miles, and does have a Honda dealership installed hitch and cooler. It started shuddering and slipping and needed to be towed off of the highway, but he was far from home so he left it at a dealer within 15 miles of the incident. His is an EXL so it has the 5 speed tranny, which is not listed on the TSB, so we will see how this plays out. He does have an extended warranty luckily, and has a rental from the dealer, but no loaner was provided. Hopefully a few drain and fills will fix this.

 

Oh no! That's not good. The heat has been record breaking here this summer and I actually saw my ECO light come on at stop lights quite a few times even with the VCMuzzler installed which tells me that everything is simply running pretty hot. But your friend's transmission failure doesn't give me a whole lot of confidence. I just don't get how Honda engineers can let such poorly designed transmissions and ATF go into production. If it wasn't for Honda making one of the best handling vans out there, I might have gotten a Sienna, which from my understanding has a more reliable engine and tranny. Please keep up all posted as to how your friend makes out.

 

Just a quick update, seems my neighbor didn't have transmission issues at all, which is a big relief. It ended up being a faulty o2 sensor and oil pressure sensor which made it feel that the transmission was acting up. From what they explained, when the oil sensor detects low/no oil pressure present it will go into an engine-saving mode to stop it from seizing. I don't know for sure by what means that it engages, but I did read that it can cut off the fuel pump to kill the engine before it seizes up, which may be a great feature in theory but not good when pressure is actually fine but the sensor is bad. The good thing is that the towing bill for both the van and boat, along with the rental will be covered by insurance, and the repairs are covered by the extended warranty. He was very happy with the way the dealership treated him and the van is running great again. Also, the NYS Trooper was aces and very good to him as well.

 

Under 60k miles and less than 5 years old that Odyssey should be covered under factory waranty.

 

I don't believe the o2 sensor or pressure sensor are under the powertrain warranty

 

It will be interesting to see how the software changes will change performance in order to eliminate exposure "to intermittent high heat loads under specific driving conditions." Does this mean when the going gets hot the ECU will retard the ignition, close the throttle and chop the power? Get ready for another band aid! What about the software on the 2016? I have 200 miles to go before the Red Line D6 goes in. The Civic went to D4 long ago.

 

So, I have 2015 Touring. Called the dealer in regards to this TSB, gave him my Ody VIN. Service guy stated that there are no open TSBs on my VIN even the TSB stated ALL TRIM for 2015 model year. What should I tell them once I go there this weekend?

 

I would try a different dealership. Or, print out the TSB (http://www.urvi.net/forumfiles/SB/A16-060.PDF) and bring it in to show the service department. Seriously, I would worry about a dealership which refuses to do work.

 

I think I must have a different understanding of what a TSB means than most. Just because there is a TSB out for a vehicle doesn't mean that the dealer is obligated to act on it. Mandatory action is what a recall is for.

A TSB tells a dealership how to handle a particular commonly occurring issue that wasn't known when the service manual was published - that's all. If a particular vehicle is not presenting the problem described in the TSB, there is no requirement to do the work. An owner wouldn't want to pay for work done fixing a problem that hasn't presented itself, and a manufacturer's warranty program works the same way. Why would they want to pay to fix a problem that hasn't shown up?

Things like software updates are often routinely handled during oil changes (at least that's been my experience). But just because a TSB involving an ATF change exists doesn't mean the dealer has to do it on request.

 

Agreed. I just assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that s2kroma’s Odyssey is presenting this judder issue and his dealership is refusing to deal with it, despite a TSB having been issued to correct the judder.

 

Could someone please describe the issue they are experiencing? What does it feel like? Do you see that tach jump? Is it only under heavy load? I just picked up a certified 2014 TE and I think I am experiencing this issue. It's rather subtle though. I drove about 5 or 6 Odysseys when searching and I think two (including the one I bought) may have had this problem.

 

It will feel as if your car has an out of balance tire vibration. It's made worse with going uphill and with full loads as there is more heat and slippage within the torque converter. Yes, the tach could "flutter" slightly instead of holding steady with your foot on the accelerator being held steady. If in doubt, bring it in and tell them about the TSB. It's easy work and nice gravy money for the tech. And you get a freebie $200 ATF change courtesy of Honda.

 

Posted a question about this here: http://www.odyclub.com/forums/8-gen...forums/8-general-discussion/281897-purchasing-minivan-transmission-worries.html

I think I'll have a better chance of getting a response on this thread. Basically, is this tsb something to keep me from buying a 12-15 until they get a permanent fix?