Hey Andy,

I'm not going to be of much help here, but I thought I'd get things started. I've got a couple of thoughts, which range from the irrelevant to well, maybe, something useful. And the emphasis is on "maybe"...

1) I'm surprised this is an inspection issue where you live. Was your rear-view mirror vibrating so much that they thought it was a safety issue? Or are we just heading down that path... Maybe in five years they will be inspecting our underwear to make sure we've changed it before bringing in the car.

2) What did they notice about the mount that made them say it was bad? I don't have experience with these active mounts. But, unless it is obviously ruptured, I would want to make sure it is not something to do with the engine mount control rather than the mount itself. Is the mount able to hold vacuum (when applied with a hand held vacuum pump)? If so, is there maybe an open in the wire going to/from the mount solonoid valve? Is the solonoid valve behaving properly? Hey, I don't have much experience with these "new-fangled"" mounts. And if it's obviously ruptured, then...
But there should be some protocol for testing the mount system (again, if it’s not just obviously ruptured).

3) Maybe when you get in there you'll find you can sneak the mount past the cross-frame. Don't know, haven't looked at it. If not, I would not "attack" the exhaust (by which, I assume, you mean the down pipes from the exhaust manifold). If you need room, I'd suggest going forward. Remove the radiator fan (you might end up breaking a few of the "new-fangled" fasteners on that upper cover, even if you have a proper tool - but, anyway, they’re cheap...). I would think that would be plenty of room. If not, you could take out the radiator. Again, though, you may find that you can sneak that mount through without doing this... Sorry I really don't know, haven't been there yet.

Hope someone who has done this job will jump in here. Good luck.

 

Thanks. I'll take a look at the fan route to see if that's an option.

When I got it back, there was nothing I could see wrong so I was confused too. I'll try calling them back to see if they'll talk about it, but they have the upper hand with inspections - they can fail you and you're stuck!

I was even thinking of taking it somehwhere else just in case, but I do want to fix it if it's bad because I plan to keep this for a while.

The manual describes a test that involves taking the vacuum line on and off while the engine is running in gear (and the brake is on). Not sure if i want to do that yet. I don't really want to get under it and mess with vacuum lines when it's running and in gear, no matter how much I trust my wife to keep her foot on the brake.

 

It is possible the turkeys who inspected it found they could create movement in the mount and have no idea what an active motor mount is. Who inspected it? Are they qualified to inspect Honda's? I would definitely have it inspected by a qualified Honda mechanic before replacing anything.

 

I do not think the motor mount is an inspection item as far as state inspections go. You can check the PA Department of Transportation out to make certain. http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/inspections/safety_motorist_faq.shtml#Q01

 

Unfortunately, if you go to:
http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/067/chapter175/s175.80.html

you will see:
Check the motor mounts, either here or during the beneath vehicle inspection, and reject if the motor mounts are broken, cracked or missing.

 

I spoke with the service station and they do a visual inspection of engine movement when someone revs it up. Too much movement = fail.

We've had the van inspected there before, but this sounds so subjective that it could vary by mechanic. I'll do the same thing myself when I get home, to see how it looks.

I wondered if it could be a vacuum issue, but it looks like the default state is stiff and the vacuum is applied to make it softer at idle.

 

William Wiles makes a good suggestion. Maybe your dealer would let you just drop by and have a mechanic look at it (no charge). They’d probably be curious what the inspection station is doing (particularly when you indicate that you think there might not be a problem at all). And if there is a problem, they could then hope to get your business. Same applies if you’ve used some other shop.

This presumes that when you look at it you’re still not convinced there is any problem. Do you have a friend or neighbor with an Ody that you could do a comparison?

I’m curious about their “test procedure”. Engine vacuum should not change much if they just (slowly) increase the RPM (since the engine is not under load), but if they are opening and closing the throttle abruptly it will fluctuate – in particular, I believe it will drop a lot when the throttle is snapped closed, and then rebound quickly. Perhaps this could cause the mount to “flex”. Again, though, I personally haven’t dealt with this mount so I don’t know how it responds under this situation (i.e. how the control system might be affected by an abrupt change in supply vacuum, etc.).

I think the usual way to test for bad engine mounts (apart from a visual inspection) is to have someone apply the brake, put the car in gear and (while still applying the brake!) give it a bit of gas. Of course, you want to be observing the engine from the side on this one, whether or not you trust your wife! The engine will cock/rotate a bit even if the mounts are good. But when the mounts are really bad, it’s kinda shocking to see what happens. You’ll think that engine is trying to jump out of there – it will raise a startling amount. No need to stress your mounts with this test though, unless you really think there is a problem.

I hope your mount is good, and it’s really unfortunate you have to go through this just to get your car inspected. Best of luck.

 

Well tonight I was revving the engine like a madman and only saw a small amount of movement. Certainly nothing that looked bad to me. I'm going the route of a 2nd opinion - probably at the local dealership. I'll update the thread after that.

Thanks everyone... Andy.

 

A second service station, one that I trust, confirmed that the mount is bad but their labor cost was about half the previous estimate, so they're going to replace it.

Incidentaly, they explained that you can't judge by just revving the engine - you have to watch as you move between D-N-R on the tranny. When I did that, the engine did move quite a bit, but since I'd never done it before I had no baseline to tell if it was moving more or less than is good.

Oh well, it's only money

EDIT to add details: they showed me the old motor mount and the rubber had split, allowing a small fluid leak. The split was under a plastic cover that protects the top of the mount so would have been impossible or very difficult for me to see.

They dropped the subframe to remove the mount.

 

Leecea,

I came back to this post to try and close the loop on the issue of replacing the front mount. I just noticed your EDIT – wow, they dropped the subframe?! They violated that old saying “look before you leap” or "think before you act".

I know my post is likely of no use to you – sorry - just thought I’d come back and put something here for anyone who might search this up in the future.

I just did the front mount yesterday (on my 2001 with 78K). My passenger side mount was ruptured (leaking fluid) and I had reason to suspect the front mount as well. So I decided to just do both.

I had to stare at that front mount awhile to figure out how it was going to come out. But, there is a simple solution that finally presented itself.

First remove the "dynamic damper". (That thing just to the side of the engine mount and attached to the same cross-member. It’s a trivial thing and takes only a couple of minutes to remove.) Then remove the battery and the plastic battery tray/holder – but no need to remove the metal tray/base. Unclip the electrical things there and move them to the side - only takes a couple of minutes. Remove the simple plastic coupling between the upper and lower radiator hoses.

Then go about the usual procedure to remove the mount (you’ll need to, in the end, remove the engine mount bracket which is connected to the engine block - by three bolts - after you raise the engine a bit to relieve force in the mount – and if you’ve not done engine mounts before, please research it before jumping in. The base of the mount is connected to the cross member by four bolts, and to the bracket by the upper-center bolt – none of these are hard to remove apart from some access issues…)

A recommendation: Remove the bolts at the base of the mount, and back off the nut on the center bolt, before you start to lift the engine - that way you can feel the mount and know when it has been unloaded - i.e. there is some play there. Only then loosen and remove the mount/engine bracket bolts.

When it is free, the mount can be easily shifted to the side, lifted and brought out. Just have a helper spread apart the two radiator hoses – mainly pushing down a bit on the lower radiator hose. It’s really simple to get it out with this process! Only takes a few seconds at this point…

***********

Edit: More info/thoughts about the front engine mount job on my 2001. As best I can remember…

1) As mentioned above, the mount is attached to frame cross member by four bolts (14mm head). The nuts into which those bolts feed are welded to a plate on the cross member – the nuts cannot be removed. Three of the bolts are easily accessed from above with a suitably long extension. One bolt (the one on the “passenger-rear” side) cannot be accessed from above – it must be loosened/removed from below.

2) Once you’ve loosened (or removed) these four bolts, and the main center bolt (17mm head), you’re ready to lift and support the engine. The best place to do this is off of the tranny - at a point more toward the center of the car (i.e. close to the engine) - and maybe a bit toward the front of the car. There is a nice surface there – but it’s a good idea to put a block of wood between the jack and the tranny. Keep in mind that you are going to have to get back under the car and remove some bolts, so put your jack in at a suitable angle. The objective is simply to take the load off of the mount, and you’ll know when this has been done since you will be able to “jiggle” the mount. After the mount is loose, a secondary (back-up) jack under the oil pan (or a jack stand put under the oil pan or tranny - even if it isn’t “tight” against the surface) wouldn’t hurt just for piece of mind - even though nothing "bad" can really happen.

If you put the car up on ramps, then as you jack the tranny you will notice that the car rises a couple/few inches before the mount becomes unloaded. But this is not a concern – you can lift the car a bit easily when the wheels are on the ground (e.g. if you get under there and push up on the tranny, or if you pull up on a fender). So, you're not lifting the engine much relative to the car, you’re mainly just lifting the car relative to the wheels. If you use jack stands, then that’s a different situation (since the springs are not involved).

I believe it’s best to stop lifting just a tid bit after the mount is unloaded. You can't then get the mount out directly (since the center bolt sticks up through the mount-to-engine bracket) and you have to remove the mount-to-engine bracket. Two of the bolts holding the bracket are easily accessed from above – the third must be accessed from below.

Anyway, hope this is of some help (and not too redundant).

Note: Jackson provides a Service bulletin on the engine mount replacement in the following thread:

www.odyclub.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=32984

 

Well tonight I was revving the engine like a madman and only saw a small amount of movement. Certainly nothing that looked bad to me. I'm going the route of a 2nd opinion - probably at the local dealership. I'll update the thread after that.

Thanks everyone... Andy.

Reving while in gear does not require a lot of rpms to raise the motor.

 

front motor mount replacement procedure

notes on removal/replacement of front motor mount.

1) used brick blocks with wood on top to raise front of car. The blocks were placed under the frame.
2) used jack with wood on top to raise engine 1” above resting position. Placed right in the center of the engine where it is exposed underneath, right by the transmission section.

the next few steps make room to remove the engine mount

3) remove both plastic shields on top of the engine. The top one comes off with 4 x 10mm bolts, the front one comes off by using a screwdriver to turn the plastic holders by 90 degrees
4) remove plastic cover over the radiator. There are at least 9 snap-in holders. They have an inner section and what looks like a washer surrounding. To remove without breaking, use two screwdrivers on each side of the inner part of the snap. There are slots to indicate where to put the screwdrivers. You only have to raise them 1/4”
5) drain about a quart of radiator fluid out of the radiator
6) remove the top radiator hose by pinching and pushing away the clamp. If it is stuck, use a big wrench around the rubber and rotate a little to get it unstuck. Separate the two radiator hoses by detaching the plastic clip that holds them together
7) unplug the battery
8) there are two small boxes attached to the side of the battery. They need to be removed as part of the process to create space to pull the mount out of the front of the car. Each one has a small plastic catch that you carefully pry away from the metal tab they are mounted to. While prying, pull up on the boxes.
9) There are two plastic covered cables press-fit into the side of the battery case. pull them out
10) The mount that held the small electrical boxes is now removed with a 10mm bolt.

The next steps remove the mount

11) You will need at least 24” of extension bars and a universal joint for your ratchet set to get to the motor mount bolts
12) Remove the nut on the top of the mount that ties the aluminum bracket on the side of the engine to the center of the engine mount. Use extension bars, a long breaker bar or torque wrench and a 17mm socket. This can be very hard. Use liquid nut-cracker to loosen if needed. In my case, I literally broke 3 extension rods trying to get it out, and gave up. I ended up taking out both the aluminum bracket and the rubber mount together, and had to use a hammer to get the nut off on my bench.
13) There are four bolts on the actual mount. They are all on the very bottom of the mount. Three are visible from the top. Using the extension bars and universal joint, remove these three. There is no other way as the nuts are welded onto the frame. The fourth cannot be reached from the top. You can reach it with difficulty from underneath using a combination wrench. While under the car, remove the small rubber tube that connects to the bottom of the mount.
14) You will need to remove the aluminum bracket attached to the engine to get the mount out. There are three bolts on the bracket. One is on top and is hidden by an overhang, one is clearly visible from the top. One is hidden and is only accessible from underneath. The two on top can be removed using either a socket or a combination wrench. The one underneath has very little clearance and you must use a combination wrench with perhaps no more than 40 degrees of rotation clearance. Even after it is detached from the engine, you may not be able to actually take this bolt out as it hits the motor mount.
15) Pull the bracket and the mount away from the engine. At that point, you should be able to separate the bracket from the aluminum mount.
16) To get these pieces out, push the radiator hose up, work the parts over toward the battery and lift up through the space you made there.
17) In my case, it was clear that the mount was bad because it leaked an ugly brown oil when turned on its side. Yuck.

The next steps replace the mount. It is not as easy as you think.

18) On all of the bolts, before installing, cover with a small dab of non-stick compound
19) Work the new mount down onto where it belongs. Do not screw anything in. attach the rubber tube to the bottom of the mount.
20) Work the aluminum bracket down. Important: before going too far, place the bottom left bolt into the bracket. Once the bracket is connected to the mount, it is almost impossible to get this bolt in.
21) Fit the aluminum bracket onto the bolt on the top of the mount Loosely connect the bracket to the mount using the 17mm nut
22) The new mount will likely be taller than the one you took out ( it has not held the weight of the engine. To get the bracket back on the engine, go under the car and raise the engine by about another 1/2 to 3/4 inch.
23) Attach the three bolts that connect the aluminum bracket to the engine. Just get them started, don’t tighten them
24) Attach the four bolts that connect the mount to the frame.
25) Make sure that the engine is high enough that the bracket bolts are not under stress.
26) Tighten the 4 engine mount bolts
27) Tighten the 3 bracket bolts

Clean up: reattach the following

28) the bracket that holds the electrical boxes on the side of the battery with the 10mm bolt
29) the boxes to the bracket
30) the radiator hose to the top of the radiator and get the clamp sealed well
31) the plastic clamp that holds the two radiator hoses together
32) The plastic cover over the radiator
33) The two plastic engine covers
34) Release the jack under the engine and take the car off the blocks.
35) re-fill the radiator fluid

This is what I did – if someone has a better way, please let me know. I actually did a lot of things wrong, and have written this to make the process easier for others..

note that I did not loosen the other mounts when I did this job, not sure if that would have changed things much. I did not think that it was safe to lift the engine enough for the top of the mount to actually clear the aluminum bracket, (which would have made it possible to leave the bracket on. )

 

Replace Front Motor mount on 2002 Odyssey

I set the parking brake, chocked the wheels, put the car up on 2 jackstands, put a jack and wooden block under the motor.
I took the battery out, and unscrewed the plastic box on the side of the battery.
I removed the vibration damper 12mm? with sockets and 30" of extensions

I used 30" of extensions to take the left front, and the two right side bolts of the front motor mount
I used a 6" extension, a universal joint, and a 24" extension to take out the remaining left back bolt on the base of the motor mount.

I used @5" of extension and a ratchet to remove the top bolt of the bracket
I got to the two remaining bolts on the bracket underneath. They were really stuck, for the drivers side bolt on the bracket, I put a combination wrench on it, and used a hammer and @ a 10" long piece of pvc pipe to initially loosen the bolt. (if I had a really long wrench, I could have just hit the wrench directly)
The remaining bolt, I had to use a hammer handle to pry the whole motor mount out of the way a little bit, so I could even get a wrench on it (I was afraid I was going to round off the head of the bolt using the open end side of the wrench. I used a ratcheting combination wrench to remove both bolts, once a had initially broken those two bolts free.

I was able to push the radiator hoses out of the way and wiggle out the old mount, and able to wiggle the new mount to its spot.
I stuck the bracket on top of the motor mount, and found out the new mount is sitting taller.
I guess I am going to have to loosed the passenger side mount so I can jack the engine up a bit, in order to line up the bracket holes