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Sudden Low Compression on Cylinders 4-5-6

26K views 87 replies 12 participants last post by  DIY Fan  
#1 · (Edited)
I can't seem to find the root cause to my 155k 2007 EXL Odyssey; I have spent hours searching forums to find similar failure modes, but the issue seems to be unique.

Background:
The van ran fine with no known issues. I was driving on the freeway for 2 hours on cruise control going 70 mph on relatively flat ground. The engine light started flashing with no mechanical noise in the engine and throttle became unresponsive; engine temperature was normal. I pulled over immediately and turned off the vehicle. I was not able to start the vehicle and actually killed the battery trying. I got it jumped from a large truck and it ran extremely rough and shut off on its own after 15 seconds or so. The vehicle was then towed home.

Diagnostics #1:
  • Timing belt is not damaged. Front and rear pulley's are timed correctly with crankshaft.
  • Compression test results: cylinder pressure for 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 were 202, 210, 225, 60, 70, 60 psi respectively.
Diagnostics #2: I removed the front cylinder head
  • Valves look pristine, that is, no visible mechanical interaction with piston.
  • Preformed a poor mans valve seating test on cylinder 4, by rotating the camshaft to cylinder 4 TDC and adding water to the cavity. I don't think it was perfect, but it was able to hold water for at least 2/3 minutes without noticing any decrease in water level. Water was slowly leaking from both the inlet and exhaust.
  • No visible cracks or damage on aluminum block or cylinder head.
Diagnostics #3: After replacing the head gasket and putting the timing belt back on. - No improvement
  • Valves were mostly adjusted correctly, only made 1/8 turn correction on 1 or 2 valves. The rest were spot on.
  • I did a poor mans leak down test.
    • That is, rotated the camshaft to cylinder's 5 TDC and pressurized cylinder 5 to 175 psi using compressed air & and a rubber plug on the compression test hose. I heard no air leaking out. Then I shut the valve on the compressor hose (not supplying additional pressure to the cylinder) and waited 20 to 30 seconds. Upon releasing the plug, a lot of air came out; meaning that the cylinder was able to retain pressure fairly well.
    • My rigged way of leak down test was completely flawed; the compression test hose has a 1-way valve at the spark plug hole. So that explains why it was able to retain pressure, in that, I was only measuring the hose. I shoved a wire in there to keep it open to allow the cylinder to receive compressed air.
    • I tested cylinder 4 and it seemed that the majority of the sound was coming from underneath, not the valves or the cylinder head gasket. Then I tested cylinder 1 (good cylinder) and it sounded similar but not as loud.
  • Compression test results: cylinder pressure for 4, 5, & 6 were ~50, ~50, ~50 psi respectively.
  • Wet compression test results (by adding a little bit of oil down the spark plug): cylinder pressure for 4, 5, & 6 were ~75, ~80, ~90 psi respectively.
Diagnostics #4: Is the timing off? - Timing seems correct
  • I took off the camshaft pulley and it properly keyed with the camshaft.
I am at a loss for the root cause. I cannot figure out what would cause all 3 cylinders to suddenly have nearly the same low compression. What are the chances that all 3 piston rings would simultaneously fail suddenly? Same question for the valves? All I can think of is timing, but the timing marks are correct.

I would appreciate any ideas to diagnose the root cause.
-----------------------------
Images:
  1. Engine block just after removing the cylinder head. (I did in fact clean the surface before putting the new head gasket back on.)
  2. Cylinder head
  3. Camshaft pulley showing that it is properly keyed with the camshaft.
 

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#5 ·
Variable valve timing failure on front bank so they don't open?????? Not sure of exactly what such controls are on your engine.
 
#6 ·
Most people would have brought the head to a machine shop in your situation. You do not know for sure if your head was warped, not up to spec, cracked, etc.. You are literally rebuilding your whole engine so why skipped out the most important step.

Check out the "head replacement" by T_duck. He is still troubleshooting his misfire, but at least, he doesn't have to worry about the head.
 
#7 ·
Generally it is considered a good idea to get the heads machined when they are removed.
 
owns 2006 Honda Odyssey EX
#19 ·
We are talking about the front (near the radiator) when you say 4,5,6?
 
#20 ·
Think about what's common= cyl 5. What could go wrong with cyl 5 to cause 4 & 6 to be affected?
 
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#29 ·
Is it just me or is there a whole lot of speculation going on? No codes, some stuff being not answered, engine torn apart already without DTCs, initial compression tests may or may not be inaccurate? I am having trouble following this one.
 
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#30 ·
If I was working on a car with similar symptoms I would perform a dry compression test, then a leak down test, then a wet compression test. The tests would have narrowed down the possible causes of the low compression prior to any tear down. Just my opinion.
 
#32 ·
Did you clean the valves before you took picture of that head? They look awfully clean, which could mean coolant was getting into the combustion chamber.
How was coolant level before you tore it apart?
Leakdown test is a percentage of blow by, how much air pressure are you putting into the cylinder, while you get your numbers?
 
#33 ·
thinking about it more, you did the most basic test you needed to do already, compression.
IF you did the test correctly, those numbers are not enough to create proper combustion, so that leads to the question, where is it loosing compression.
Did you inspect valve seats? Cylinder bores? Anything jumped at you.
I agree that having all 3 cylinders fail at once is a bit of a stretch. I have seen burned up valves and bent valves due to timing belt breakage. You say you have none of those issues.

If I had to hypothesize, it almost sounds like your head is warped, which is how coolant may have gotten into the cylinders in the first place. Not letting machine shop
look over the head was a major mistake. They will ensure your valves are sealing and head is flat within spec.

At this point in time, see if you can hear air in the coolant passages, which is my guess where its going.
 
#34 ·
Update: I removed pistons 4, 5, & 6 and they all have their rings seized to the piston. I think this is my low compression culprit. I also discovered that my front catalytic converter's catalyst substrate is broken and missing, so basically it becomes an open tube; I don't think it is related unless the one under the vehicle was plugged from the front's debris. See images.

After researching more, I found another thread that experienced something very similar, van-shut-off-on-the-highway. In that, there was sudden low compression in cylinders 4, 5, & 6 and his front catalytic convert was plugged. My take away was that he unseized his piston rings with chemicals and limped along.

Any ideas on root cause that would cause all 3 cylinders to suddenly failed?
My hypotheses are:
  1. VCM was on and was overloading the front cylinders which caused carbon deposits on the rings
  2. The front catalytic converter broke and clogged the catalytic convert underneath the vehicle which caused carbon deposits on the rings, while VCM was on so it only impacted the front cylinders
I will check to see if the catalytic convert underneath is clogged.
 

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#36 ·
Any ideas on root cause that would cause all 3 cylinders to suddenly failed?
If you are not going to reply to questions that were asked, I think you will find yourself talking to an empty room

Stuck rings are common issue with older engines. I don't think its the smoking gun here, but definitely needs to be addressed.
How are you tearing this engine apart? Is it still in the car? Is the front head off?
Debris from a catalytic converter had been known to wear out engines (hyundai), but I imagine you would have p0430 code with
your front cat looking like that.
 
#35 ·
VCM at most could only overload cylinder 4. Cylinder 5 and 6 do not have VCM in any form.
 
owns 2006 Honda Odyssey EX