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Misfires in all cylinders

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ecwilson23082

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Hello,
I have a 2006 Odyssey EX-L that is having misfires in all cylinders. It has 170K miles on it and I got it about five months ago. When I got it I replaced plugs, timing belt, fluids and a few other unrelated things. Had no issues till now. It just recently started and was barely noticeable at first (didn't notice an issue when driving just a rough idle). I read the codes and had a misfire in all cylinders, a random misfire , and a fuel bank 2 lean code. I checked vacuum and it was a bit low at 16", couldn't find a leak so I replaced the EGR valve and vacuum went back up to 21" and steady. Drove the vehicle and seemed good, idle seemed pretty smooth but it still generated misfire codes ( I reset them after replacing EGR valve). This morning it got really bad, I tried to drive it and it wouldn't go past 3500RPM (even just revving it in neutral). I checked vacuum and it was back down to 16" and is not steady (doesn't deviate more than 1/2" but very erratic). I have checked for leaks using propane and haven't found anything. I tried pulling the connector for the coils off one at a time and found that the front cylinders make no difference. I can leave them all off and the engine sounds the same. When I pull the connectors on the back three cylinders each one causes a noticeable drop in the engine. I got a fuel gauge so I can check pressure tomorrow but wanted to see if anyone had some guidance with this issue. I am wondering if this could be related to the VCM system?
 
#3 ·
" I have checked for leaks using propane and haven't found anything."

What does this mean? I am not familiar with using propane to check for leaks.
 
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Discussion starter · #4 ·
I replaced the PCV valve this morning (old one was filthy) however no change in symptoms.

As far as the propane I initially suspected a vacuum leak causing the rough idle and used propane to see if there was a leak (listen for engine to pick up) around hoses, gaskets, etc. . Did not find any so I went ahead replaced EGR valve and vacuum had come back up to 21" of course that is not the case now.

Just to restate current issue I get misfire codes for all 6 cylinders but the front three are clearly not firing at all. I can remove the coil on the front three and have no change in engine performance. After a min of running the front exhaust is almost cool to touch unlike the rear bank. I swapped a coil and plug from a cylinder on the back to one on the front with no change. This rules out plug or coil. Not sure what could cause all three to fail completely and misfires on the back three? Of course I don't know yet if the coils on the front are actually getting a signal to fire, I will have to check this next.
 
Discussion starter · #6 ·
pappy said:
Check plugs 123 see if they are oil fouled . Are the front coils energized? Loose connections?
Click to expand...
Plugs #1,2,3 are the rear bank (front bank isn't firing), I pulled 2 out and it looked fine, same as #6. I bought a tester and connected it to the coils on the front bank and they were all sparking good. I would think that rules out spark as the possible issue now. So I guess next step is to verify fuel pressure, I can ohm out the injectors but not sure how to verify they are actually energizing when running.
 
#8 ·
if you have advanced scanner, start by looking at misfire pids.
I posted my diag on misfire that turned out to be bad injector. Search on the forum.
Could be air/fuel / 0xygen sensors, plugged cat, or something else entirely. Need to do alot of diag on this.
 
#9 ·
The last time I saw a situation like this it was because the timing was off. You replaced the timing belt. Have you verified the timing marks again?
 
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Discussion starter · #10 ·
pappy said:
Has the throttle body been cleaned?
Click to expand...
Not yet but I will do that.

maxud said:
if you have advanced scanner, start by looking at misfire pids.
I posted my diag on misfire that turned out to be bad injector. Search on the forum.
Could be air/fuel / 0xygen sensors, plugged cat, or something else entirely. Need to do alot of diag on this.
Click to expand...
I do not have an advanced scanner but I may have to buy one, I was looking at the Bosch 1150 since it shows/records live data and isn't too expensive ( on sale for $150). I'll search your post and read through.

John Clark said:
The last time I saw a situation like this it was because the timing was off. You replaced the timing belt. Have you verified the timing marks again?
Click to expand...
Yes I turned crankshaft pulley over to line up TDC mark and both camshafts were lined up with the mark on the timing covers (with #1 at TDC). Also the issue seems to have come and gone although it is worse now than ever but if it was timing it would have been a consistent issue I would think?

Thanks for the suggestions, I haven't got anything done since my last post but hopefully can get back to it tonight.
 
#11 ·
I wouldn't call the Bosch 1150 an advanced scan tool. I'd consider the Foxwell NT510. It runs about $170 and can do OBDII data on any vehicle, as well as manufacturer specific data for whatever manufacturer you buy it for. Additional manufacturers can be purchased for $60 per manufacturer up to five manufacturers (check their website for available manufacturers.) Additionally, it has bidirectional capability for whatever manufacturers you've purchased. That can be extremely valuable for troubleshooting and diagnostics. It's a great little scan tool for the money.
 
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#14 ·
Pretty sure you won't be disappointed...unless you want to eventually use it on Nissan. As far as I can tell they don't have manufacturer data for Nissan. Aside from that it's an absolutely awesome tool.
 
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Discussion starter · #17 ·
John Clark said:
Pretty sure you won't be disappointed...unless you want to eventually use it on Nissan. As far as I can tell they don't have manufacturer data for Nissan. Aside from that it's an absolutely awesome tool.
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John,
I got the scanner in today however one of the buttons is broken so I am going to exchange it. One thing I am not clear on, is the software licensed for 18 months or is that just how long you can get free updates? I am very impressed with the tool otherwise though thanks for the suggestion.

Despite the broken button I hooked it up and noticed a few things:
After resetting codes and doing the idle relearn procedure I had 0 misfires while holding the van at 3000RPM's as soon as I let off the throttle and it drops to idle it starts misfiring. It had misfire counts on 5 different cylinders (didn't see any on 6). Cylinder 5 definitely has the majority of the counts.
After letting off the throttle and it idling for 30 sec or so then the rpm's increase to about 1600 where they remain and it sounds much worse. At this point the throttle is also limited to 3500rpm. If you try to exceed this it sounds like your hitting a rev limiter. The misfire counters as well as the short term fuel trim stop reporting values at this point. Fuel bank 2 is in OL fault at this point while fuel bank 1 is in CL still.
Going to work on it more tomorrow. I also ordered the service manual so I am going to do some reading in there.

thscott said:
I don't see how you specify the Honda software version of this?
Click to expand...
You are allowed to download 1 free software package when you get the scanner.
 
#18 ·
The scan tool will work just the way it is forever. Foxwell puts out updates for newer vehicles and you have a year or 18 month subscription to those updates. After that I think you have to purchase updates. Strange that it has a broken button. I'm not even sure how you break a button.

You have an obvious problem on bank 2. It should not go into open loop. I'd want to view some live data and see what's going on when it goes into open loop. Is it going into closed loop and then going back to open loop or staying in open loop from initial start? Fuel trims will be important, too. Don't expect a lot of diagnostic information from the service manual.
 
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Discussion starter · #19 ·
John Clark said:
The scan tool will work just the way it is forever. Foxwell puts out updates for newer vehicles and you have a year or 18 month subscription to those updates. After that I think you have to purchase updates. Strange that it has a broken button. I'm not even sure how you break a button.

You have an obvious problem on bank 2. It should not go into open loop. I'd want to view some live data and see what's going on when it goes into open loop. Is it going into closed loop and then going back to open loop or staying in open loop from initial start? Fuel trims will be important, too. Don't expect a lot of diagnostic information from the service manual.
Click to expand...
What I am seeing is that when I start it up both banks are in OL Cond for about 30sec at this point they both go into closed loop. Engine RPM's are about 700-800 and the misfire counters are primarily showing misfires on 4,5, and some on 2. The others have shown misfires but weren't today and almost never any on 6. Fuel trims are B1 7-9% (occasionally spikes up to 20%) and B2 45%. It runs this way until B2 faults from too many misfires and goes into OL fault which is when the engine RPM's increase to 1200 where it remains.

As a test I started it and held engine rpm's at about 3,000. As soon as I increase the rpm's the misfires completely stop. The fuel trim on B2 does come down some as well to around 30%. If I hold it for a min or so and let off it will idle and begin misfiring but not enough to kick it out of closed loop it will remain idling this way still misfiring on primarily 4,5.

What's interesting is that I can then stop the engine and immediately turn it back on and it will begin misfiring allot more and go back into OL fault. I was able to repeat these scenarios several times. It seems unusual that just by holding the rpm's up for a bit it will drastically change the rate of misfires.
 
#20 ·
That sounds like possibly a vacuum leak somewhere. Your fuel trims should be down at less than 10% under normal conditions. A vacuum leak will usually manifest itself as a very lean condition at idle and then when the RPM's are raised the vacuum leak is a smaller percentage of unmetered air so the fuel trims will improve at higher RPM's.

When the engine is lean enough it will cause misfires. I would start by searching for a vacuum leak. If you can get the fuel trims down to normal I bet the misfires will stop.

You said you replaced the EGR. What brand of EGR did you put on it?
 
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