Transmission Fluid Change

nchevaux · Apr 19, 2011

I have a 2005 Odyssey with 66,000 on it. I purchased the car used and don't believe the ATF was ever changed. I recently had it to the dealer for a recall. They must have checked the ATF fluid and said it needs changed ASAP. I checked the dipstick myself and it looks awfully dark. Not reddish.

My questions is should I do a total flush or is a dump and refill sufficient? I've read the ATF posts here but can't reach a conclusion. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.

txn · Apr 19, 2011

Since Honda ATF was supposed to be changed at 30K miles, your van is way overdue for a total ATF replacement. This is easy to do.

Get 10 quarts of Honda ATF.
Do a 3 X drain and refill.
Drive around for 10 minutes after each refill.

nchevaux · Apr 19, 2011

Thanks for the advice. I was sorta leaning to a total replacement because of the dark color of the ATF.

sinbad · Apr 20, 2011

You may not understand that you cannot "sorta" do a "total replacement" because the total volume of ATF is about 8.3 quarts and it does not all drain empty when you remove the drain plug.

You can only drain about 3.5 quarts at a time -- the rest remains trapped inside. This means that must you drain and refill and then, in between, run thru the gears to mix up the ATF and then drain and refill again, and again, in order to continue to dilute the old ATF.

Three drains and refills will give you about 81% new ATF; 4 drains and refills about 89% new ATF; 5 drains and refills about 93.5% new ATF; and so on.

There are other posts that describe a procedure wherein you introduce new ATF into a running transmission that is simultaneously draining -- but this is a bit more complicated.

sssmeee · Apr 20, 2011

yup total replacement, make sure the fluid is dw1 though

curiousgeorge2 · Apr 20, 2011

Just word of warning.

When a transmission has NEVER had its fluid changed it will build up a significant amount of sludge, but the transmission seems to operate fine since the sludge accumulates over time, and hides it crevasses or walls that are not affected by the main flow of fluid ....until you actually change the fluid. One theory is that the new fluid loosens up the built up sludge, and then this sludge gets caught in one or more of the many critical hydraulic channels throughout the the system. This leads to transmission failure, usually within the next 20-40K miles.

One analogy:
Imagine a river of polluted water. Let's use visible pollution like garbage, logs and branches. As these pollutants were added to the river, they found a natural resting area on the river bed, the shoreline, or got stuck on rocks in the middle of the river. None of these pollutants inhibited the flow of the water, because they were slowly added to the system over time, and the areas with the most water flow (such as the middle of the river) never allowed these pollutants to settle. But that does not mean the river is not polluted. Just because the water seems clean, and it is still flowing does not mean that the river bed, and shoreline are free of contaminants.

This is the current status of a transmission that has never had its fluid change din over 60K miles.

Now imagine if you will, that you add an agent that "loosens" all the pollutants at the bottom of the river and on the shoreline ALL AT THE SAME TIME. This would cause the contaminates to go into the main water stream. Now there is a greater tendency for these pollutants to inhibit a critical area of flow somewhere in the middle of the river.

People who believe in this theory also suggest that if the transmission fluid has NEVER been changed for an extended period such as 60K+ miles, then the best thing to do is to NOT change the fluid, since this will actually give you another 40-60K miles prior to transmission failure which would be a better situation than had you changed the fluid.

In both situations, you're heading towards a new transmission. The choice is whether you believe that a tranny flush will loosen enough crap to actually damage the transmission sooner than had you left it alone.

sinbad · Apr 20, 2011

curiousgeorge2 said:
When a transmission has NEVER had its fluid changed it will build up a significant amount of sludge, but the transmission seems to operate fine since the sludge accumulates over time, and hides it crevasses or walls that are not affected by the main flow of fluid ....until you actually change the fluid.

Respectfully, I am curious: what are the facts upon which you base the several above conclusions. Personal observations? Reports in the literature? Or are you just stating a theory?

0dyfamily · Apr 20, 2011

This thread has some good info, posted by manualman:

"The Worst Thing You Can Do...."

ATF's serve many functions; here are a few:

1.) Power transmission through fluid power circuits
2.) Friction modification
3.) Heat exchange
4.) Lubrication

Once ATF starts to degrade, it can leave deposits (varnishes, etc.). Once it gets to that point, you probably are already experiencing problems with general operation. In short, if there is enough in the way of deposits on valve bodies, in fluid passages, etc...the A/T is probably already malfunctioning. I don't think adding fresh ATF to a normally functioning A/T via a fluid change will cause the rapid dislodgement of deposits. I've helped open one or two auto trannies back in the day (Ford C4, if IIRC). These had never had an ATF change, had lots of miles on the original filter (okay, it's more like a strainer) ...and I never saw the deposits one would expect, anywhere.

Read manny's post. It's in line with how I look at this topic. Also, I still think that if there's enough junk in there that you're worried about the fresh additive pack in new ATF (friction modifiers, lubrication enhancers, detergents) will cause deposits to dislodge and wreck things...well, the A/T is probably already malfunctioning.

OF

curiousgeorge2 · Apr 21, 2011

0dyfamily said:
This thread has some good info, posted by manualman:

"The Worst Thing You Can Do...."

Read manny's post. It's in line with how I look at this topic. Also, I still think that if there's enough junk in there that you're worried about the fresh additive pack in new ATF (friction modifiers, lubrication enhancers, detergents) will cause deposits to dislodge and wreck things...well, the A/T is probably already malfunctioning.

OF

Manualman sums it up really well: "If you suddenly introduce new high detergent ATF into that environment, great globs and chunks might come off and clog screens and small orifices."

0dyfamily · Apr 21, 2011

george, that last sentence was his opinion, and he used the word "might"....he doesn't know any more than you or I do about these deposits that can be dislodged, but raised the possibility that this might happen. The top part of manny's post was borrowed from Click and Clack (the "Tappet Brothers" of the CarTalk show), and is spot-on.

As before, I've pulled apart just a couple older A/T's, and haven't seen these "deposits". Chances are your A/T's were on their way out due to neglect before you did the long-ago-needed fluid service.

My 1998 Accord had no service record of an ATF change in 174,000 miles. I drained it, and it was black, pitch black, like thin, waste motor oil. I changed it...7 times...over the course of a couple weeks. It is running more smoothly, and is approaching 178,000 miles, and is running on a full load of ATF-Z1. If there was ever a candidate for an A/T dying due to dislodged deposits, this car is either going to be the poster child for the theory, or it will debunk it.

I don't subscribe to the theory of a fluid change causing demise of an A/T. The evidence is anecdotal, like all the guys who changed fluid on their Gen 2 Odys, only to have the A/T grenade shortly thereafter. In those cases, it wasn't the ATF, it was that 3rd clutch.

OF

RinconVTR · Apr 21, 2011

Holy crap guys. Is the world ending along with the OP's 60k tranny or what!

Do the 3 or 4x ATF dropp and refill proceedure and have no worries.

Dont listen to all the hub-bub about sludge and needing a new tranny. Cause even if that were true, does that mean you shouldnt do anything at this point? Just run'er till she dies? Get real.

People are over reacting and creating panic...ignore them.

0dyfamily · Apr 21, 2011

RinconVTR said:
...Dont listen to all the hub-bub about sludge and needing a new tranny. Cause even if that were true, does that mean you shouldnt do anything at this point? Just run'er till she dies? Get real...

Exactly. With 170,000+ on the odo, and pitch black ATF, there's no way I'd even consider not changing the fluid. It's gonna get fluid changes UTK until the drain fluid is red (that's why it took 7 changes).

OF

Bill in Houston · Apr 21, 2011

3x drain and fill, maybe a week between drains and fills. easy peasy. slam dunk. no question.

rabbitxstyle · Apr 22, 2011

is it possible to do this Flush on the ody??

YouTube - 10 Min Atomatic Transmission Fluid Flush + Replacement (Most Cars)

JDSStudios · Apr 24, 2011

rabbitxstyle said:
is it possible to do this Flush on the ody??

YouTube - 10 Min Atomatic Transmission Fluid Flush + Replacement (Most Cars)

One of the best posts on this thread, thank you rabbitxstyle.

gfh77665 · Apr 23, 2011

You bet it is! Thats exactly what I do. I don't mess around with 3X partial drains or whatever. I brought my '06 into the dealer at 50K and did the full flush. I will flush every 50K for the life of the van. 50K flushes have served me perfectly on all my other rides, too. Do it.

0dyfamily · Apr 23, 2011

That procedure removes ATF from some of the fluid circuits, but the gallon (probably a bit more) of ATF residing in the T/C and its clutching mechanism remains in place until you drive it.

I've done this on my Accord once (it's exactly the same as in that video, 2.3L I-4 VTEC, 1998-2002 Accord, and mine is Taffeta White, too), but it just didn't pump out a whole lot of ATF before turning clear...still a ton of dirty ATF trapped in the A/T, so I just did a bunch more drains/refills. I got more out of using my HECAT flusher through the ATF in-tank cooler.

On the plus side, I was able to get about 20 oz. more out of that first drain/refill. That's worth something in the "dilution war" you wage in trying to get clean ATF into the A/T.

OF

Bill in Houston · Apr 23, 2011

Did he cycle thru the gears while the fluid was pumping through? You can get a little more dirty fluid out by doing that.

BobThe · Apr 23, 2011

I did a full flush on ours with Maxlife ATF about 20k miles ago (about a year and 4 months ago).

http://www.odyclub.com/forums/14-pe...rums/14-periodic-maintenance/38043-honda-vs-valvoline-maxlife-tranny-fluid.html

I now do the one time swap every other oil change since it is so easy and I am down there anyway. It has been running like a champ, shifting great and the fluid looks good coming out.

I would rather change it a bit too often rather than damage these transmissions that in the previous generation were seemingly made out of glass. I haven't heard of the horror stories that the 2nd geners had, but I would rather be safe than broken.

sssmeee · Apr 23, 2011

I used something this to suck 5L of fluid from ma camry through the dipstick Deluxe Pump | Canadian Tire

DrD · Apr 23, 2011

nchevaux said:
I have a 2005 Odyssey with 66,000 on it. I purchased the car used and don't believe the ATF was ever changed. I recently had it to the dealer for a recall. They must have checked the ATF fluid and said it needs changed ASAP. I checked the dipstick myself and it looks awfully dark. Not reddish.

Just buy a case and do multiple drain/refills over the course of a week or two - it's easy and gets the job done. One thing I have noticed with Honda fluid is that it darkens/discolors much more quickly than other fluids... In any event, I wouldn't be worried about potential negative effects of changing the fluid on a 60k mile transmission.

sinbad · Apr 24, 2011

OK, here is the Jan 2008 Acura Service News: "Check Out the Latest Word on A/T Flushing," which I recently found.

It sets out the 3X drain and refill procedure with running thru all the gears (with the vehicle on a lift or jack stands) a total of *FIVE* times between drain/refill.

Note the admonition that you be sure to shift through all the forward gears and go into *torque converter lockup.*

It says that if the A/T will not shift past second, then go to neutral and then back to Drive. (I just drag the brakes a bit to simulate a load and it up-shifts.)

Also note that you should release the parking brake -- I guess the PK brake switch is communicating with the PCM.

My tip: remember to turn off traction control or else you will hear some noise that will freak you out.

Based on this article -- I still think that this is the best way to go when flushing your A/T.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/p0420/B080100.pdf

OdyProspect · Apr 24, 2011

sinbad said:
OK, here is the Jan 2008 Acura Service News: "Check Out the Latest Word on A/T Flushing," which I recently found.
Based on this article -- I still think that this is the best way to go when flushing your A/T.

http://www.tegger.com/hondafaq/p0420/B080100.pdf

Looks tough to do without a lift. I guess drive to lock up between drains.

I think they could program the diagnostic tool to open the TC (and all the other passageways) while on the lift and just idling. Toyota does this for brake bleeding using their OEM scan tool. Home mechanics just go find some gravel to activate the ABS circuits.

For the home mechanic I think that the fluid line exchange will work well but know that when you hit lock up on the road the torque converter is going to empty all it's old fluid into your new fluid diluting it (and your new fluid will rush into the converter where it is most needed). You are back to a percentage game but I think the numbers still work better with the fluid exchange. Using DW-1 at $6-8/quart it's going to cost either way.

Bill in Houston said:
3x drain and fill, maybe a week between drains and fills. easy peasy. slam dunk. no question.

Even easier would be 3x drain and fill with the next three oil changes. You'll already have your work clothes on and the tools out.

cc183 · Jul 2, 2011

OK guys, so should I take my 2010 with 37K miles to a dealer and have the ATF changed? I will probably trade it before it gets 80K on it.

How much should a dealer charge for this service? Any thought?

Edmonodyssey05 · Jul 2, 2011

Just did a drain and refill yesterday. It took all of about 15 minutes and about 25-30 bucks in synthetic Amsoil ATF. I had to add an extra bit to account for the new transmission cooler. Installing that took a bit more time!

cc183 · Jul 3, 2011

Thanks for the info guys. I suppose I better schedule to have this done.

On a side note, I believe my 36K mile warranty has expired. Never understand why a used "certified" Oddy gets a 100K powertrain warranty and a new one only gets 36K but that is my understanding. Am I right?:huh:

cc183 · Jul 4, 2011

Perhaps I am wrong. 5 years or 60K on powertrain. On a new Oddy, I believe that is correct.

cc183 · Jul 5, 2011

Got mine done this morning:

Labor $49.14
Parts $50.05
Misc $ 3.69
Tax $ 3.28
Disc $15.03

Total $92.13

Took all of 25 minutes

CashStrapped · Jul 6, 2011

Had my 2007 LX Van in for warranty work today and I asked the dealer service manager if the $95 charge to replace the transmission fluid included the recommended drain and fill three times. The guy gave me a blank stare and said "Why would you want to do that?"

I guess I will be changing the fluid myself. How much is Honda ATF per quart?

cc183 · Jul 6, 2011

I was charged $11.90 per quart for 4 quarts.

chan_man · Jul 6, 2011

Paid 6.70 per quart from the dealer, this is the case price for the DW-1 and 1.30 for the washer. Just finished a single drain and fill, takes just about the same amount of time. Now I feel better doing it myself...

deathamatend · Jul 6, 2011

Transmission fluid will be dark colored when the transmission fluid filter goes into bypass mode when filter media is clogged. You should change the filter with the fluid change. I would recommend changing the 3rd & 4th gear pressure switches. If they are plugged up or otherwise not working, the transmission will slip and burn up the fluid (thats why it turns dark). Perform regular maintence and you will feel more confident in your vehicle and your abilities.

cc183 · Jul 6, 2011

I paid $3.45 for the washer.

Well less the 15% discount for VIP!!

byb_cuz · Jul 9, 2011

Can anyone help me find the drain bolt with a picture without the ratchet in the way, I have been trying to find it all day, I found a spot where my ratchet fits but it doesn't look like the samespot as in the DIY

dvpatel · Jul 10, 2011

Its much further front than you think. I didn't have trouble finding it but I have the 2007 the same one as the writeup. I do remember vaguely that the 2005/2006 are slightly different. In the 2007, the bot is in the middle of the van (right around the middle between the passenger and driver seat) facing the passenger wheel almost in line with the oil pan.

Transmission Fluid Change

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